Is it OK for a woman to be Angry?

Intro

Is it okay for a woman to be angry?Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I’m Brandon. I’m Tyler. We’re brothers.We’re therapists. And we know recovery. Bring your stories, your questions, yoursuccesses with real recovery. [Music]Hey Tyler, you ready to have some hard conversations? Let’s do it. Let the Therapy Brothers podcast begin. What’sup, Tyler? Brandon, how’s it going, man? Uh, it’s going really well.Good. I’m glad to hear it. You seem so calm today. Uh, yeah. I just I just got up early andhit the gym and was just feeling sluggish. So, I don’t know why. I’m justgetting old. I you know I went golfing and I hit a ashot. It was like a 50-yard shot a This was a year ago and I tweaked my wristand it still is injured from a year ago. Yeah. Just from a 50-yard little shotlike I don’t you know you’re getting old man. So I went golfing this weekend and I

Anger Changed

like can’t hit it because every time I hit it it hurts now. So, so I’m just like shots like left and right and Ijust want to throw my club across the fairway, you know? Yeah, I’ve se I’ve seen that happen a time or two, I think.Talk about anger. I had a little anger as a kid.I think we I think we all did. Bit of a temp a bit of a temper, youknow. Yes. and and it would boil over betweenus sometimes and that’s when it got really crazy. That’s when it was three three threebrothers all with a little bit of a different fuse. Like that’s a Yeah, pretty volatile home life.It was fun though. So anyways, yeah, that’s that’s kind ofwhere I’m at. But just mad that I’m injured, but yeah, man. Yeah, it’s a Monday. Let’s let’s get theweek going good. So cool. Um, luckily we have a really good guest to to start us off and um we haveLA with us today and she’s uh I think she’s been on twice. Have you been onthe podcast twice already? Just once. Just once. Okay. Maybe we’ve had yourhusband on a couple times. I can’t remember. Um but uh LA is also atherapist and she has her own personal story of recovery and uh betrayal andrecovery and she is just a rock star in terms of her passion and her willingnessto to step into the arena um to understand her her own recovery toself-reflect but also to help others. So she’s full of wisdom. She’s full of lifeexperience. She’s full of knowledge about all of this stuff. So, she’s she’s an excellent guest on all fronts. So,the topic we have today, I think, is something that is really interesting andum something that I’m excited to dig in with. So, Louder, welcome to the show.Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. Um so, let’s dive in. Let’s dig intothis. Um can women be angry? Um, that’s an interesting question. Um, talk aboutthat, Lara. Why? Why that question? Um, tell us your story a little bit. Fill us

What Anger Protects

in. Yeah. Um, so I think on a societal level, womenaren’t really allowed to be angry. Um, women are often classified as, you know,overeotional or being crazy. Um, and angry women is not something that we’rereally comfortable with or used to. Um, and it’s funny that you mentioned theother time that I was on the podcast, I was actually at a way different place. And that’s fine. That was where I was atin my recovery and and healing. But I remember coming on here and asking something like, you know what, if myhusband is a Mr. Nice guy, but what if I’m a Mrs. Mean Girl? I remember. Yeah. And so I’m not thereanymore. Um I’ve had my own journey with anger. Um but the reason why I came withthat that first time was because um throughout my life I’ve been calledan angry person. Um I grew up in a very angry household with my dad. Um he wasjust an angry man constantly and overly critical and all of these things. And soI grew up a very angry person. I got called all these things. Um at one pointsomebody even told me that anger was my addiction. Um and then healing afterbetrayal I kind of took that on and um I kind ofblamed myself in those ways for being angry or overly angry. Um and I andthat’s what the narrative the narrative I had when I came here that first time.And so um yeah, I was trying to work on the behaviors on being less angrywithout really digging into what was going on. Um but at one point I had areally transformative experience with anger. Um kind of like an IFS experiencejust on my own. Um, so basicallywhenever I found out about my husband’s betrayal, I kept two journals. Um, one journal Iwould write everything that I was actually feeling, all my anger, my sadness, my rage. Um, and then my otherjournal I would write to him as my best friend because I missed him because we were separated at the time.

Feeling Unsafe

Um, and so later on in recovery, I wanted him to read that just to kind ofunderstand what I was going through and he was okay in his recovery to be able to handle that. Um, so I let him readthe really vulnerable journal or I was going to let him read the really vulnerable journal. And the first pagesof my journal were just anger, like rage. like the nastiest things that Icould have come up with were in those first couple of pages. And after thatentry was a really vulnerable entry. Um like I miss you, you know, we can makethis work type of thing. Um and so as I was letting him read that, I let himread the first entry and I was comfortable with that. um because thatwas the angry me and then this the the the second entry was more vulnerable and so in that moment I realized like wowanger has been protecting me this whole time like it was protecting me then and it’s even protecting me now as I revealthis vulnerable part of me because it’s coming up first like it it comes up first that’s the very first thing thatcomes and so I had this really profound experience with that is just seeing like my anger as like this beautiful part ofme that is just protecting me like she’s been there all along. She’s um gets alittle crazy sometimes, but and and because this anger loves me, she comesand defends me. And I realized that that was a pattern in my whole life of like me feeling very unsafe and anger comingup first to defend me, to be there for me. And so that just really sat with mereally deeply. Um, and after that, I’ve just witnessed my anger so differently.I understand it now. And I I love that part of me because it’s I think it’s also the part of me that’s passionateand part of me that gets me to act and do things. But because I understand it

After Betrayal

now, I don’t unleash it. I just um yeah,I’ve I’ve transformed it and I’ve harnessed it, I guess. And so that’s mystory with with anger. And so yeah, I just wanted to talk about it and how andsee how it can help women um after especially after betrayal with theirwith their anger and then help them transform it.Uh that’s awesome LA. Thank you. Thank you for being willing to come on and share your story. I remember yourpodcast from a long time ago. It was a long time ago and I remember actually the discussion that we had. But I think it was a great episode that uh was kindof along the same topics. I’m I’m wondering just to kind of clarify what you’re saying that you’ve always kind offelt stigmatized by the fact that you had this anger that would manifest itself in all of these different ways.And you even started to take it on as like almost like hating your anger, feeling like you were you were a problembecause you felt all of this anger or because of the way that it manifested. And then it was only after you startedto dive into understanding, validating, coming to know that anger,realizing that that anger was connected to a lot of other things in your life that really mattered, that were really important to you. That didn’t even getrid of the anger. It helped you to understand it and channel it differently. That’s whatyou’re saying. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so go a little bit furtherinto that if you if you don’t mind. Like what what other things did you find onceyou started to dig into it and get to know it, understand it, and actually love that part of yourself, what otherparts was it connected to in terms of principles or values that you that it

Compassion for Anger

was actually doing its job to try to protect? Mhm. Um well, for me it was it was kindof in two parts. Like the first part of it was seeing it as a problem and hatingthat part of me. But at the same time, I think it was important that I took accountability for it and, you know,took responsibility for how I was showing up defensive and, you know, all these ways. Um, but then that was justlike kind of surface level. And so that’s why I needed to go deeper and that was that experience for me. And soyeah, just seeing that anger showed up for me um when I felt unsafe and I had felt unsafemost of my life um just with these patterns that I mentioned of like being in this household where I was criticizedliterally all the time. And so um I felt so unsafe and then after betrayal, youknow, when I found out about the betrayal and afterwards I felt really unsafe. Um and I was protecting it wasprotecting so much of me. is protecting my dignity. Um it’s protecting my myworth, my value, my sense of justice. Um my boundariesand connecting to those things and one being curious and wondering, okay, what isunderneath this anger? Um that was that was the work that helped me havecompassion for it. Um and also be able to express that, right? That’s a whole another step. Um, and then in inrecovery after betrayal, um, I think it’s also, you know, if you’re with your partner, for them to understand youranger, for them to also be able to do that and empathize and see what’s underneath the anger. Um, that’s also abig piece of it. It’s interesting to hear you talk andwith this like acceptance of it. Um, which is amazing.Um, but what I wonder is like if we were to back up just a little bit, like whatare the messages that men get about anger that are different than women? Like we’re as men we’re told like that

Men vs. Women & Anger

we’re kind of built that way, right? Like um aggression or anger is kind of apart of being a man at times, you know, and it’s normalized more so for men, I Ithink. And tell me if I’m off on this, but for women, there’s an underlyingmessage, and maybe you can speak to this LAR just a little bit. Um, as a womanwho has anger or has anger come up, like what are some messages that you’ve been taught about anger specifically?Yeah. Um, I think along the lines of like you’re overreacting,you’re being crazy, you’re being too emotional, you’re too sensitive. Um, just like calm down, thisis too much. Um instead of asking the questions of like what is making you sounsafe or what is going on it’s just right into criticizingu the outbursts as where I think it is more normalized for men. It’s anger is athing that um we’re comfortable more more comfortable seeing men um expressthemselves in anger but women not so much. Um,yeah. I wonder why, you know, but but there’s this like it’s almost like theyjust mute women’s feelings or emotions and it’s like you’re supposed to smile and be sweet and you know when thingsget hard like just just nurture the situation and be kind about and likethat takes the humanity out of being a woman like and and the reality is is

Muting Emotions

anger is very important for everybody. body. Um, men and women. Um, so likewhen you’re when there’s that that undertone, it’s like, okay, I have these feelings inside of me, but I’m I’msupposed to already self-reject those because I’m a woman and I’m not supposed to express them and I’m not supposed toshow them. So, like, and yet they’re raging. Like, it’s it’s ra it’s literal rage, right? It’s anger. And so it’slike and it sounds like you’ve been willing to be like I’m gonna actually show them like right which is awesome.Um but it’s it’s interesting that that thatsocial construct is there that I think connects shame to anger for women of youknow I I’m I’m angry and I shouldn’t be and therefore I’m bad if I’m angry. AndI think it’s important to call that out. And you’re a great example, Laa. Instead of going the other direction of like,okay, I’ll learn how to never be angry and smile and pretend like that’s not in me, you’ve gone the other direction oflike, no, I’m going to go like get to know this thing and like love her and see her and and use her effectively inmy life, right? So yeah, because I work with clients whohave been betrayed and I feel that anger within them and they have it. But thatself-rejection that you were talking about is like yes, we have these messages in society, but then weinternalize them and then we use them against ourselves and like I’m being crazy. I’m being too much. Like thisdoesn’t require this reaction. Like why am I being so like emotional? And and Ihear women say these things like after they’ve been betrayed too. They’re like I guess I’m just well I’m just reallycontrolling and you know I’m just being kind of crazy. And I’m like are you orare you being hypervigilant? Something a normal symptom after experiencing

Anger in Grief

trauma. Um and and they just get reinforced and and sometimes the personwho did the betraying reinforces that as well of like you know you’re just being crazy, you’re just being controlling. Umwhen the anger is a normal reaction to being to having your trust brokento to um to an unjust situation, to being some in a situation that youdidn’t sign up for. um to have to having your heart broken to having that much hurt. Umbut yeah, I think we just have a hard time seeing it that way. Mhm. I think LA too there’s anotherlayer to that when it comes to betrayal. So it’s so there’s the there’s the fearof like I’m addicted to anger or you’re crazy or you’re this or the other and and there’s that stigmatization thatcomes from other people, but it’s also something that comes from the inside too of like and and I think sometimes Iwonder if like a betrayed spouse often feels so out of control from the inside too that the anger almost feels scarylike what what am I capable of doing if I actually don’t check this? And so theyoften check it. They try to get rid of it. They try to deny it. they suppress it. And there’s another layer that’s notjust the hypervigilance, but there’s also when you’ve gone through something that’s that traumatic. And when itaffects all of your hopes and dreams and your way of being in the world, there’s a grieving process that goes along withit, too. And I see a lot of people get stuck in the anger part of it becausethey refuse to see it. They refuse to allow it. They refuse to acknowledge it.whether it’s because of their own fears of it or because of what they’ve been taught about it. But then it keeps them stuck in this kind of like holdingpattern of things start turning from the inside and then it finds its way out sideways in other ways. Maybe selfharmful behaviors or controlling behaviors or other things or maybe the the rage like finally goes over the top

Stuck in Suppression

and then they regret what they’ve done with the anger. And instead of just learning to acknowledge this is part ofa grieving process that my soul needs to go through because of what’s happened inin my relationship and that acceptance sometimesisn’t allowed because of how we see anger. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think yeah angeris part it’s a stage of grief like it is part of the grieving process. But it is ironic how like in denying andsuppressing anger, you get stuck in anger. So because you’re afraid of it and not willing to go there and confrontit, you get stuck in that in that phase of of grief. Um although it’s it’s anormal part of grief. Not only is it normal, it’s actually very importantum to for that for that protection. You know, it’s it’s interesting when youthrow out to people like are you know like give me an example of a good emotion and they’ll say happy and giveme an example of a bad emotion. And often times the answer to that is anger.Um and the truth is is emotions aren’t good or bad. They just are. And but but likeanger has a function. There’s a there’s a purpose to anger that’s very importantand especially when we’re talking about betrayal. Like it’s very important forprotection. Um, and I like what Tyler just said of oflike it it it it’s kind of tricky because if you don’t want to feel anger,

Trusting Anger

you need to allow yourself to feel anger, right? And then you have to learn to trust yourself to not act in the angerin ways that’s against your value. Right. So, so you kind of harness thatanger effectively and that LA your story about journaling and like figuring itout like that’s what you’ve sound like mastered like you’ve gotten really good at that. Um because the truth is isanger can lead to destruction. Like it can lead to things that you don’t wantto do or consequences that you don’t want. That’s true, right? Um, but if youcan harness it and allow yourself to feel it, then it’s a part of the grieving process and it it protects you.Um, but if you don’t allow yourself to feel it and you just smile, then you’reyou know, you’re you could get hurt like you that you’re not allowing that protection to happen. So it’s veryimportant especially with betrayal.Could I ask you something louder kind of back to your story? Um just just alittle bit here. You said you’ve kept that journal. You kept both journals. It’s like you had the the real one andthen you had like the curated one that you were going to give like hey these are still my feelings towards my best friend. So, you’re kind of trying tocultivate all of it. And then you said that you wanted him to read all of it.And I think it was there was I can’t remember the exact language that you used, but it had something to do withbeing able to express your feelings, to be seen or to be witnessed or it wassomething along those lines. Is that right? Yes. Like for him to be able to hear it and

Being Witnessed

understand what your process was, that was that was meaningful to you.Can you speak a little bit more to that process in terms of like why it was soimportant for your anger to be seen maybe not just by you but by your partner as you guys were healing.I think um because it it just it spoke to the pain.It was so big and um and he felt it in the beginning like the the bigness of itand the intensity of it um because that was what came first for me for a long time. Um but at that point um we were ina different place. But I still wanted him to knowhow hurt I was through my anger. Umhow disappointed I was, how let down I was. how heartbroken I was in those moments, especially because in thosemoments I felt so alone. Um, and that’s that’s part of the trauma, right? Likeyou your world collapses and then you feel alone. Especially when you’re betrayed by the person who you trustedis it’s such a complicated grief because the person who you trustedis the person who hurt you. And so, um, it’s a different kind of aloneeness thatyou feel like nowhere to go, nowhere to call home. Um,and so yeah, he I don’t think he was ready toactually take those things in for a while until that point. Um, becausebefore he would get defensive or he would shame spiral. Um that was a bigthing that he worked through. And so at that moment I knew that I could share it safely. Um while I wasn’t feeling thatintensely, but that was still me. Like past me was still me. Like you know I I still wanted to honor that part ofmyself. Um but he got into a point where he could look underneath that anger andbe like, “Wow, you were so hurt. Like this was such a hard time for you. This this was heartbreaking. Like this iswhat you were feeling.” Um, and he was able to do that. And because of that,um, I was able to turn the page to the next section, which was like the more

Betrayal & Confusion

vulnerable part, like I miss you and we can work, you know, um,on things and things like that. But yeah, it was really important for him to see that anger and to to stand likestrong and and wanting to uncover what’s under it instead of like shame spiraling.Yeah. Um I I like what you said there because I that’s been my experience. I don’t know Brandon your take is on thisor not, but it’s been my experience that it doesn’t always happen and healing cancan and has to happen sometimes without a partner acknowledging that pain. But it seems to be the case for a betrayedspouse, especially even more so for a lot of the women that I work with, that the witness of that pain does reallyhelp in turning the page. And I I think that that kind of goes into just like general relational things even even so,you know, where when you look between like a husband and a wife’s, you know, if you were to ask them most of the time, what are the wife’s top prioritiesin the relationship? You’ve said some of the words today, but safety, being seenand chosen and acknowledged, right? And then for the husband, a lot of times their biggest one is they want to bethey want to feel like respected. They want to feel like they’re like they’re showing up and able to provide or orwhatever else. And so your husband doing his recovery work was able to learn overtime what empathy was. And then he was able to step in and provide that almost witness of all of those feelings arevalid, right? And that made that made it easier to go, okay, number one, I can turn thepage because those emotions have been validated, but number two, he’s also now showing up in a way that where there’sactual safety for those feelings to be expressed. And that that safety makesthe anger not need to be there quite as much. It’s interesting like and and I don’t

Final Thoughts

want to go off on this topic too far, but um I I just feel like we getrelationships wrong so much. It’s like relationships are about like we thinkit’s about agreeing. We think it’s about like okay, yeah, you you you see me because you agree with me. And thereality is as as humans, we have things that happen to us. We have triggers that come and what we really need is to sitin them and process them. And when we sit in them and process them um and andjust hold space there um that’s where we can really create connection with eachother. And so like it’s interesting with anger. If you if if you think about anger, anger is a secondary emotion.It’s it is a protection mechanism. Um, but the emotion underneath is usuallyfear. Fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, fear of getting hurt. Andwhat you just said, Lara, is interesting is when he was able to sit in that angerwith you, allow you to process it, um, you were able to let go and findsome relief from that anger and then open up about the real emotions that were there and sit and hand those overto him and and and talk about them and feel them, which creates like intimacy.it creates connection. Um, so yeah, it’s it’s interesting withrelationship like anger’s interesting because a lot of times it does disconnect. A lotof times it pushes away disconnects and and what we need with relationship isspace and time and then we can come back and say I I am angry. This is what I’mfeeling. This is what I need. help me understand what I need. I’m trying to figure that out versus like I want topunch you in the face, right? Or yell at you or whatever. And so, um, it’simportant to acknowledge within yourself, I’m angry, but then get clear with what do I need to process here?Like, what is my truth here before I just react to this feeling? Right?So, I don’t know what you guys think about that, but I I I think that’s true, but I alsothink it, at least for me, it took a while to get there. Like, at first, it was very raw and it was very like I wantto punch you in the face. Like um and it it was just so hard. Like, itwas so hard to get to a point where like I was curious about it. Um, and that’s where that’s why I think like as womenlike we need to believe ourselves. Um, because like when you were talking about triggers, I was thinking triggers werewere the way through for me. Like triggers were how I found healing. Um,even though I hated them, but as they came up, you know, once I startedthinking of them as like, oh, this is a sign that there’s still some pain here.But first I had to believe them. Like first I had to stop calling myself crazy and you know you’re you’re overreactingor this has nothing to do with that like it’s fine now he’s not doing that thing anymore blah blah blah. First I had tobelieve myself and be like oh like this is coming up for me for a reason andand then express it and then for him to do his work and be able to meet me there like that took a while. Um, but that butbut then again like that was the way the way through.I’m having a thought too with what you’re saying and Brandon what your question was. You know, we’ve said this on the show several times, but if you’reviewing your partner that everything your partner does is either an act of love or a cry for help, then theresponse of whatever’s showing up, whether that’s sadness and devastation or anger and frustration,if it gets viewed through that lens by both partners, then the discussion canturn to more of, hey, I’m seeing a cry for help or what? I’m really I’m reallyfrustrated right now because I’m not being seen. Now it’s like, oh, we can move towards that instead of like you’recrazy or you shouldn’t be showing those things or anger is of the devil orwhatever else, you know, because we get that all the time, too. And um just being able to see it from that broaderperspective and allow room for it to be what it is, which is usually a cry for help or an act of love. Um, the anger isusually a cry for help because something else is also connected to it that needs some attention.Um, could I could I broaden this out for a second? Maybe this is a whole differentepisode sometime, so shut me down if I if we need to. But thinking about justexpression of emotions in general, you know, when you look at it across the general population,there’s a significant a statistically significant difference in emotional expression between men and women wherewomen are much more emotionally expressive except in the area of anger andaggression where then men are the ones who are actually more expressive than women in that one area.And I I wonder, you know, what you guys’ thoughts are on this that it might be asocietal type of thing. There’s definitely going to be some societal factors, but I’m not sure that that’s all of it. You know, I I wonder ifthere’s a difference in the way that just masculinity and femininity typically just are built in the way thatthey work and if that’s part of this equation, too. And I don’t know what you guys think of that. I’m throwing it out there. What are what are your thoughts?I have some thoughts. I’ll let la take it first.Yeah, I’m not sure. Like I definitely see the societal um factors, but I guess as somebody whoI’ve been identified with anger so much my whole life, I don’t know that women like feelit less or anything like that. Like um so I don’t know. I’m not sure it’s afeeling thing as much as an expression thing. Like is it is it just a societal thing or isit is it you know I’m thinking of like what you look at sort of like typicaltypes of things that you’d see if you look at like the wise mind vin diagram of like mindfulness. There’s the emotional mind which is there forintuition, connection, emotional identification, expressiveness. Emotionsare a signal. They they’re motivators. They lead to action. And then you have like the rational mind which is the thelogic, goal orientation, solutions, you know, and typically those two thingswould be associated with the typical definitions of what feminine and masculine are and that polarity that’sthere, right? And men are men are also known the masculine I should saymasculine and not just men but men are more men are masculine than women and more women are feminine than men, right?So, so in that when the masculine energy isgoal oriented, it’s more sort of like linear, it’s known for beingum aggressive. Um it seems like it more naturally iseasy to be expressed that way. Whereas for feminine energy, that’s more gearedtowards connection in relationships. Anger doesn’t typically always feel likeit’s going to lead to connection, even though I think it does a lot when it’s shared properly. Um, it’s it’s alsoknown for its nurturing, its intuition, it’s all of those other things that you were talking about earlier.And it seems like it doesn’t lend itself as easily even though you feel those emotions.I think I I I’m leaning towards it societal andand like and I know and here my anecdotal evidence is that I have um twoboys and two girls and raising, you know, two boys and two girls. Um mygirls have as much anger and aggression as my boys. Um and and that it expressesdifferently. Um but I think my boys are given a bit more permissionum you know to fist fight for example to like it it’s it’s like in our culturebut I don’t think that they have any less anger the girls have any less anger than the boys. Um and the way that we’regiven permission to manifest that is different I think society with in society. So, and this and I’m Mr.masculinity and femininity. I’m like all about the masculine and the feminine are different and blah blah blah. But Ithink when it comes to an emotion, when it comes to sadness, anger, grief, we ashumans across the the board feel these things and express them in certain ways.And you know, I I wonder within different even cultures, you know, it comes down to what can women do withanger? what can men do with anger? Um, I’m sure that’s different, too. So, I think it’s pretty societal in myopinion. And I think the relationship between men and women ma matters a lot too cuz Tylerwhen you were speaking and maybe this is a question for you of like you were saying, you know, women kind of need tobe need to feel safe and connected and those things, but men it’s reallyimportant to feel respected. And so I think people don’t equate respect withanger. Like if somebody is angry at me, maybe I don’t feel so respected by them.And so I’m wondering like that role in that relationship too. And especially after betrayal, likeis is that part of the reason why an angry woman is so difficult because theman the man feels disrespected even though he is the one in in this typicalscenario, right? He might be the one that did the betrayal in the first place. That’s a huge disrespect, butlike um the anger, the reaction feels disrespectful and and I don’t know likeI wonder like what the interplay is with that and like if there needs to bekind of a a pause in order to provide safety or just like a different type ofunderstanding. I don’t know. I don’t know if that is even a question that makes sense, but I was just wondering about that when you said that. That’sthat’s a great thought. I mean, I I don’t have all of those answers. I have my own thoughts on it. Um, you know,just with that question, maybe there is something to that with what you’re saying. I also think for a lot of the couples that we work with,um, when a man is the one who’s done the betraying and his wife is mad at him, alot of times part of the problem is is that the thing that got him into the trouble in the first place was the lackof his ability to hold his form under pressure and keep his values under pressure. and then his wife who now istheoretically the most important person in the world in terms of what they think of him. In fact, in a lot of ways, he’strying to extract his value from his wife in the first place. And when he doesn’t feel like he’s getting told thathe’s enough or that he measures up or whatever, even though she doesn’t have the answer for him, now when she comes back with disgust and disdain, it’s notjust a disrespect thing. It’s also another answer to the question that he’s been trying to extract from her, whichis that you’re enough. Now he’s hearing, “You’re not enough. You’ll never be enough.” Her her anger triggers hisshame. Yeah. It hit it hits the shame, which then shame robs anybody of being able toshow empathy. Yeah. But this is why betrayal recovery is so freaking difficult because the thereality is is her anger is valid and needs to be there and protects her and and and I I love the story you toldearlier about Victor having the strength to sit there with you in it. Um becauselike that that’s ultimately what heals a relationship after betrayal. We I I was talking last week to a person whorecently got betrayed and he said, “You know, this is really hard because I haveall this anger and the very person that I want to process it with is the very person that like laid all these triggersin my lap. like I I want to like I I want to connect to this person that I love to process these things and yet Ijust am so angry at them. So it’s this really difficult thing. Butthat person who is betrayed, if they’re working in recovery, like really truly work in recovery, they can be one of thebest supports for that anger for their partner who is going through betrayal trauma. Um sowhich which Brandon go along with that when you look at rebuilding trust inside of a relationship for both men and womenpart of the trust equation is shame resiliency on both sides. Yeah. And what LA’s story was was abeautiful kind of illustration of her own shame resilience when she started tolook into her anger and learn to came to accept that part, even love that part, even be grateful for the parts of itthat actually what it was trying to do for her rather than get buried by the shame of like you’re crazy, you’readdicted to anger, you’re this, you’re that. Like when she was finally able to let go of all of that judgment and meetthat anger with compassion and understanding and curiosity which is shame resiliency,she was then able to go and express that in ways with her husband where while he was working on his shame resiliency, hewas able to lean in and go, “Oh, and without both sides of that shame resiliency, there’s never thatability to have that interplay with one another.” Well, and also I think thatit’s important that your partner is not the place where you where you really dojust process your anger just there like that that you within yourself. I lovedLA your story about journaling like that’s a great example of you taking thereigns for your anger and figuring out how to process it, do something healthywith it. Um that’s that’s important. Soum in fact I call it I call it stepping into the box of like you become aware ofyour anger. You know that part now LA right like and and when she comes up um youyou recognize what she looks like, what she feels like, how she like what thoughts come, you know like all thethings like oh hi anger part there you are. Um, but then there’s a next step oflike, okay, what do I do to um like allow this andfeel it rather than just stuff it, right? And I call it stepping into thebox, stepping into your anger box. Um, journaling is a great way. Uh, playlistsare a great way, like certain music can can help you process um anger. callingsomebody who will hold space and and allow you to to vent but also just holdthat space and not amp up your anger and feed a victim story. Um so callingsomebody journaling. Um and then with anger, this is an interesting one. Umactually getting aggressive can be helpful. So like for example, I’ll takemy daughter to the glass recycling place and we’ll throw glass in the bin and it feels so good. like she loves it. Umbecause we and and we just like have fun just breaking this glass. Um but butit’s channeled into that bin where we’re throwing the the glass. Um fire likeburn things in the fire if you need to. Um but you can do something to processthis sematically uh physically like just like step into that. If it’s channeled,then you can come back and say, “Okay, what like what am I really needing? What emotion is underneath this?” Giveyourself permission to step into that box. And it sounds like that’s what you’re doing, Lara. Correct.Yes. And and I think also um some emotions do call us to act. You know,anger a lot of the times does call us to, hey, maybe you need to set a boundary here. Maybe you need to take abreak here. Maybe you need to step out here. Maybe you need to speak up here. Um and and so channeling that in in thatway too. Yeah, that’s a good point. And and and and hearing those messagesthat it has for us. Um cuz it can allow us to act. UmI mean, I don’t think I would be here talking about anger if my anger at people not letting women be angry wasmade me so angry. Like, you know, and that caused me to act and want to talk about it. Um andI love that example. Good. Mhm.La, we’re getting to just a few minutes left here. Um, is there anything that wehaven’t hit on today that you wanted to make sure that you got to share or express today or that we talked about?Um, no. I I think just, you know, it’s it’swhen it comes to anger, it’s not taking it as a narrative or an identity becauseagain, that was that was part of my story before. Like, I am angry. I am defensive, but I’m not. I get defensive.I get angry. Um, but it’s it’s being curious about it. And a lot of the timesthere’s a deeper story there. Um, and it it’s worth asking like, have I felt sounsafe that anger has had to show up for me? And what does that mean? And what do I have to change? And, you know, what doI have to understand and learn? Um, and so, yeah, that’s that’s the thing. Um,also, one last thing I did want to say to the audience out there is that a lot of the reason why my husband and I wereable to do this sham resiliency work is because of your guys’s work. Um, so justtelling the audience that y’all are in good hands, Tyler and Brandon. So, um, keep at it.Thanks, Lara. That’s really nice of you. Um, yeah, I Oh, go ahead, Tyler.I was just going to say we’re actually really lucky because we have you now on the team. So, it’s kind of cool to haveseen the journey that you’ve been on. This has been a couple of years now, several years now in the making, but youcan hear it. The work that you’ve done and now now you’re in a spot where you can not only have done a lot of the workfor yourself, but you can turn around and help other people and in a lot of ways reclaim your heart is getting thebenefit of your expertise now. So, we’re glad to have you on the team. Yeah, I’m so excited. It’s definitely afull circle moment for me and I’m so thankful. I we’re we need to wrap up, but quickstory. Um, I was working with a woman who um found like like really abruptlyand shockingly found out about her husband’s affair and she came in andshe’s like smiling and she’s like, “I believe in repentance. I believe in forgiveness.Like, it’s okay. Everything’s fine. You know, this is fine. um he can he canrepent and I can forgive and life will go on you know and smiles and and I waskind of like you know kind of listening and she was hiding her anger. She was uhI mean it was it was like layers deep. Um because that anger I think was soconnected to the pain of of it all. Um, and it was interesting to watch whathappened because she held strong like she did not want to be angry at all about about this betrayal.Um, and it led to just depression. It led to just shutting down of just likedepressed about it because she didn’t allow herself to to go through that part of the grief, the anger um to get to aplace of peace. And I just want to reiterate that, you know, for for anybody, an anger is okay. Um, for abetrayed man or a betrayed woman, anger is important and that part of the process is important. So, I’m so gladyou came on to bring um bring awareness to this, Laa, and to talk about this andum give permission for people, especially women, that you can be angryand that’s okay. So thank you Lara. Really appreciate you. Thank you guys.Say the same thing. Thank you. And thank you to our listeners. If this is meaningful or if this would benefit somebody that you know, please feel freeto share it. And until next time, keep on keeping on.