I’m at a crossroads in my relationship and I am not sure which way to go…

Intro

0:04Just taking a minute here.

0:13I’m at a crossroads in my relationship and I’m not sure which way to go.

0:18What’s up you guys? Happy to be here with you today. Tyler, your wandering therapist. I am here by myself today.

0:25Brandon has one last big trip with his family to Lake Powell, which if any

0:32anybody listening to this has ever not been to Lake Powell, that was that’s like a hidden place that people in Utah

0:38and the in the surrounding areas know about, but it’s one of my favorite places in the entire planet. So, he gets

0:46to go be with his family in this beautiful red rock place with this beautiful lake and um and maybe the best

0:53part of it is is that he has zero cell service. So, he’s just there with his family having a good time. He needed

1:00some much much needed time off. And so, I’m glad he’s he’s able to get that. Um

1:05couple of things before we jump into the episode today. Just a reminder, we’re getting close on dates. We’re down

1:13within a few weeks. We have just a couple slots left at the Rising Sun Retreat. If you are a man who’s looking

1:20for a way to find some real connection with real like-minded men who are trying to live principles of recovery and live

1:26wholeheartedly, this is for you. If you know a man who is in desperate need of

1:32this, this is for him. And uh you can go to risingsson.org

1:37and you can get more information there or sign up. Secondly, we love having

1:42callers on our show. And I’m just going to throw it out again to anybody who’s interested in listening. I know it’s an

1:48act of courage, but our callers are what actually make the show great. You guys hear from Brandon and I all the time.

1:54You know, pretty much what we’re going to say most of the time, but it’s the caller with their own unique question and situation that actually usually hits

2:01the nerve for the other listeners who are listening. So, if you want some suggestions, some help, some support,

2:07go to therapyros.org and sign up to become a caller on the

2:13show. We’d love to have you come on the show. So, today we have a guest, Jessica. Thank you for having the

2:19courage to come on and thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Tell if you if you don’t mind,

2:25just give me a little bit of uh a little bit of background and a little bit of what you’re going through and uh and

2:31we’ll jump in. All right. Um, so my husband and I have been married

2:37for we’re going on 10 years now. Before we got married, um, my father is a sex

2:45addict. So I was aware a little bit more, I feel like, than a lot of people

2:50are. So I broached the topic with him when we were engaged and he disclosed that he had struggled in the past, but

2:56that it he was past it. And so um I told

3:01him it was something I wasn’t willing to have in a marriage and things like that. And he agreed and we got married and

3:10then I started finding things. um over the nine years there were multiple

3:15multiple times that I caught him um you know seeing seeing different things and

3:23stuff like that and I would I would bring it up to him and he would um say

3:28no no no it’s not that and I’ you know point out the proof that couldn’t be disputed and then it’d be minimizing and

3:35gaslighting trickle truths and so that happened I can’t even count how many times over nine years and Um then about

3:46a year ago um I just I just felt like something was really wrong and it took

3:53multiple times. I remember just like please just tell me. I know something’s

3:58wrong. I could I could just feel it that something was off. And it was no no you know nothing’s happening. and until

4:05finally um in July of last year, he kind of just was like, “You know what?” And

4:11he told me everything. He disclosed that he’s been, you know, like he was telling

4:16me he was having spouts of sobriety, but in reality, it was him, you know, using it multiple times a day, every day for

4:22our entire marriage. And he also disclosed that when I was pregnant with our only son that he had a few online

4:29affairs. Um, so life kind of just went crazy at

4:34that point. And so in this year, we’ve kind of thrown ourselves into recovery, which he had in the past done, you know,

4:43like when we would find things, he would start therapy and 12step and and things like that, but he wasn’t actually doing

4:50it. He was he was lying to his therapist and and to the people about the severity

4:56of it and what he was actually doing. And so of course it never worked. But this time this time has been it has been

5:03different. Um we did a therapeutic disclosure followed by a polygraph which he did pass. Um and so he’s got 13 or 14

5:13months now of sobriety. But I don’t I don’t feel like he’s in

5:20recovery because we’re still running into I would say our biggest issue right now is um

5:27I’ve had to set boundaries where you know I we would go out and he would

5:33check out other women right in front of me and things like that. So I had to set boundaries where okay I’m not going to the lakes, I’m not going to the pool,

5:39I’m not going to the ocean, things like that. But then it was happening in in places like um like we would go on a

5:45hike or at a restaurant or even like the most recent time which was about a week ago which is part of my I don’t know

5:53what to do anymore is it was just at a church event where he’s and he knows I’m

5:58looking right at him. So it’s it feels to me almost more hurtful than if he was

6:04acting out with pornography because it’s like I’m right here, you know? And so I

6:09kind of felt like I was reaching a point where I was accepting that, okay, I

6:14think I might need to move on and I cuz I don’t feel like I can heal in this environment. And then um I found out I

6:21was pregnant uh about a on Friday actually. Um

6:27so that’s that’s been a lot because uh it’s going to be a high-risisk pregnancy

6:32if I if I can even keep it. um like if it if it’ll stay type thing. Um so

6:39that’s just added a whole another layer of well maybe this is a sign that we’re supposed to try one more time. But it’s

6:46extremely triggering for me because the last time I was pregnant he was cheating on me. And so I I don’t know. I feel

6:54like I just don’t really know what to do anymore. um whether to use this as

6:59another chance or if it’s going to be more damaging to my health because I I

7:07don’t feel like even regardless of the amount of boundaries I’ve put in that it feels like it’s after the fact

7:13boundaries after I get hurt. And so I I I don’t know. I I told him last night

7:20I’m I’m done being hurt, but I don’t feel like you’re done hurting me. So I don’t know what to do.

7:26I see. Okay. So, um, just make sure I’ve got the clear picture from what you’re giving. You guys have been together for

7:33nine years. You’ve got one son. You just found out you’re pregnant with a high-risisk pregnancy just a few days

7:40ago. And that’s mixed into this wrestle that you’ve been

7:46having for a long time as to whether or not the relationship is right for you in

7:52the context of your husband’s recovery and the betrayal that you’ve experienced. Yeah.

7:57Okay. And and you’re Okay. So, and and you said that before you found out that you were pregnant, you were kind of

8:04moving into a space and into a like a heart space or a direction that that

8:09you’re more leaning towards releasing the relationship than trying to repair it. Is that right?

8:15Yes. I think something that I I struggle with a lot. I I do a lot of comparing

8:20which I know I shouldn’t be doing but like my husband is he’s a great person

8:26you know and he’s an amazing partner and so I don’t have a lot of the extra

8:33issues that other people have when they when they talk about their things. So then I’m like okay well maybe I should

8:38just be more grateful that he’s you know a good person and not doing all the other stuff you know he’s not using

8:45prostitutes he doesn’t hit me he you know what I mean? So, like then I compare to that and feel like, okay,

8:51well, shouldn’t this be enough? Like, what exactly is it you’re wanting? And I just I don’t know.

8:57Yeah. It’s that constant game back and forth in your brain. I guess I’m wondering like uh just to just to kind

9:04of start off with, can you tell me a little bit more about the process that you were in and that and the place you

9:11were coming to before you found out you were pregnant? Yeah. So,

9:17um, we are currently, so as soon as I found out, um, last year, we started

9:23doing an inh home separation. So, he moved out of our room into a different one. Um, but with these instances that

9:31kept happening with him checking out the other women, it I just I I was like, I

9:36just need more space from that. And so, we started doing an out of home separation. And I feel like it kind of

9:42was giving me the space I needed to see that like I can do this on my own um

9:49versus, you know, like it’s not even possible for me to do. So I feel like I was I was coming to that point where I’m

9:55like, you know, I can do this alone. I but also my mental health with all of

10:03this has been getting worse as time goes on and it’s hit kind

10:09of like an all-time low. And so I also kind of came to the realization that

10:15this is hurting me and I can’t heal in this environment regardless of the amount of space I’m getting because I

10:22keep getting hurt. And so I kind of felt like my only option left to do would be

10:29to leave. And so I feel like I was kind of accepting that and we were working towards that and then this happened and

10:36yeah. Okay. So um just just to kind of maybe outline a couple things and you can kind

10:42of tell me number one if this relates and number two if and where and how it fits for you if it does. Um, oftentimes

Instability

10:49it sounds like you’ve been on quite a journey for the last several years and you’ll probably relate to some of this,

10:55but oftentimes at first before you know anything, there’s like this feeling of

11:00instability or there’s like this wall that you’re hitting in the relationship or there’s something going on that you just can’t quite put your finger on. And

11:08then when you do find out, it kind of throws everything into question. It’s like uh it’s like you’ve been thrown

Roller Coaster

11:14into the washing machine on the spin cycle and emotionally it becomes this massive roller coaster of what else do

11:20you not know? What else should you ask? What else should you is this partly your fault? And it leads to a place of like

11:26obsessive thinking like constantly can’t really can’t think about anything else.

11:31Yeah. And uh and that drains you emotionally and the more drained you get emotionally the more volatile the emotions become.

11:38And so it feels like it feels even scarier. And so then in an attempt to

11:43try to figure out stability and safety, again, there’s often this like pursuit of we call it control. And it goes one

Control Patterns

11:50of two ways, maybe sometimes both, where I mean, I’m going to try to control things by making sure he gets better

11:56because if he’s better, then I don’t have to worry about it. And that’s going to make me feel safe. And so I’m going to obsess about making sure that he does

12:02his treatment or his meetings or his I check his phone or all of that stuff. It’s like a hypervigilant kind of state,

12:09but then you get burned out and tired. Maybe feel shameful. You feel like you’re a probation officer instead of a

12:15partner. Yeah. Um or sometimes the control goes inside and there’s like this internal story

12:20that’s that’s going on that’s like, “What’s wrong with me? Why am I not good enough? Why is he choosing other people?

12:26Should should I lose weight? Should I be sexier? Should I not not complain as much? Should whatever else?” Either way,

Burnout & Shame

12:33that fuels more burnout and shame. And then that kicks the cycle off again. And

12:38so you find yourself sort of spiraling down. And in that spiral, you find yourself confused. You find yourself

12:47losing your sense of self and your confidence. You find yourself feeling resentful, angry,

12:53kind of all of that mix of really negative emotion. Um, does that make sense at all? Yeah, I definitely think

13:00that that was, you know, and a little bit more context for you is I have borderline personality disorder, so that

13:07also adds to the chaos of it all. Um, so it makes the roller coaster even bigger for you.

Anger & Stress

13:13Yeah. Emotionally, it’s been terrible. But yeah, like recently in in this last year in

13:19cuz I joined um some um groups for betrayed partners and things like that

13:26and that has has really helped me in placing boundaries where I’m not as

13:34involved in his recovery if that makes sense. Like kind of taking myself out of

13:39that so I don’t have to deal with the stress of that. I definitely still have

13:45things I need to, you know, separate myself from, but I think I’ve made a lot of progress with with taking myself out

13:52of the chaos of of his recovery. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. And and and

13:57inside of that kind of like cycle that I was describing, sometimes

14:02sometimes as you’re trying to like you’re in this place of like discernment of what’s the right thing for me to go

14:08and do right now. Yeah. And and there’s kind of two different kinds of energies that start

14:13to start to almost come into competition with each other as you’re trying to discern something like that if you’re like most people. And there’s either the

14:20fear cycle energy, which is what I just described, which is I’m now getting exasperated. I’m getting resentful. I’m

14:27getting tired. I’m getting angry. Um I’m like doing like this almost like reactive sort of thing and I’m just

14:33going to get rid of the relationship. Or if you’re outside of that cycle and you’re able to ground yourself, you’re

14:39taking good care of yourself emotionally, you’re getting good boundaries, you’re getting a little bit of support from people who are going to

14:45support you to make your own choices, then eventually you sort of kind of come to this place of I call it the surrender

14:53uh moment or this acceptance moment of there’s it’s almost like a moment of clarity and peace inside the storm

Chaos vs. Clarity

15:00that’s going on around you. And that energy is where I encourage most people to wrestle to get to before

15:08they make the decision that they’re going to make whether to stay or to go. Okay. Um, and I don’t know like with as

15:14you were and that’s what I’m trying to discern right now as we’re talking is as you were getting closer and closer was the acceptance a resignation of just

15:22like I’m exasperated and tired and no more or was it more of like a clarity kind of like hey this is this is

15:30probably even though it’s going to be painful the right direction for me to be moving. I think like hearing you

15:36describe it, I I think that I’m probably still more in the chaos of it because I do have so

15:43much anger and resentment towards him. And when I found out I was pregnant, it

15:49it brought that in even more. Yeah, I can imagine. You probably felt

15:55pretty trapped. Yeah, I just I felt angry. It feels like I told him it feels like he blew up the

16:02train tracks in front of us and we crashed and he’s just like, “Oh, well that sucks. I’m sorry.” And I’m just

16:08here trying to figure out how to put the train back on the track. Yeah. Yeah. I can hear it in your voice.

16:13And and that makes sense. I think anybody in your shoes would probably have some of those feelings that you’re talking about.

16:18Yeah. And and those feelings aren’t necessarily bad or wrong. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying those those feelings are

16:25often not the best place to be making your biggest decisions from.

16:31Yeah. Um because then it’s like this uh it’s almost like in the aftermath of making those kinds of decisions, there’s its

16:37own form of like questioning and then you kind of drive yourself crazy going, “Well, did I really mean it or not?” And

16:43this and that and the other. And yeah, it’s like, okay, if that’s the energy that you’re still finding yourself in, that’s okay. That what that means is is

16:50that we want to make sure that we’re getting the right things in place for you to be able to kind of systematically

16:57get more and more grounded and planted, get more and more self-confident and more and more supported.

Grounding Support

17:03And then that will help you to kind of land more and more often in that place of that surrender clarity where you can

17:10then decide whether to whether whether you need to stay or go given all of the

17:15factors especially now including this pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. So, it sounds like it sounds like you’re

17:22doing quite a bit of work on yourself already right now.

17:27Yeah, I’m doing the I do therapy every week. Um

17:34I’m doing um the the 12step for the partners and

17:40things like that and and trying to work on myself. It just I don’t know. I guess

17:47I feel like I want to be

17:52farther along myself than I am so that I can make these decisions and I

17:58especially feel like a kind of like a a time clock has been put on it now

18:04because of the pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. So you feel like this pressure to then hurry and get to decision.

18:10Yeah. Yeah. How does that how does that pressure serve you right now? Does it

18:16help? Um, no. I think it’s kind of making me feel

18:22very helpless. Yeah. Yeah. Like this this pregnancy is is extremely hard

18:29for me. Like for example, this morning I I couldn’t stand up long enough to wash my face and

18:35brush my teeth. And so cuz I get really dizzy and feel like I’m going to pass out. And so then I feel physically weak

18:42and unable to do it. And I have a very hyper hyper little boy. And so

18:49it just I guess I feel like I’m not enough to do it on my own. And then that

18:54makes me angry because I’ve always been a really independent person. Yeah.

19:01You got a lot on your plate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You probably have more on

19:07your plate than you have the energy to get to every day right now. Yeah. Yeah.

19:13So, in the in that you’re kind of like in sort of like maybe a moment or a

19:19chapter of what you might call crisis right now. Yeah, definitely.

19:24Yeah. Um, are you are you familiar at all with uh with dialectical behavioral

19:32therapy at all? DBT. Yes. Um, I I was doing a lot of DBT and

19:37then um I have it’s hard because I have like a

19:43couple core issues and they all kind of like correlate with each other. And so like me and the therapist I was doing

19:49DBT with kind of felt like I needed to work more on the betrayal trauma in order to

19:55do that. And then it so it’s kind of just like I feel like I’ve been bouncing around my issues trying to figure out

20:00what exactly to focus on. Um, right now I’m I’m working with someone who’s um,

20:06what is it? Ace Ace Bat or whatever it is certified and um, so she’s familiar

20:12with betrayal trauma and stuff like that. But we’re kind of running into the same issue where it’s like what exactly

20:18am I should I be focusing on because like I’ll start focusing on something and and then it feels like it’s held up

20:23by something else. Yeah. Are you uh, with your therapist are you doing anything kind of on the

20:29personal level? Is it more skill building or is it like more like trauma based like art or EMDR or anything like

20:36that? Um, I have tried EMDR. Um, but it it didn’t really work for me in the past. I

20:43was I was too closed off or something like that. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Um, right now it kind of has been a

20:49little bit of chaos because things keep popping up back to back to back. So, our

Therapy Struggles

20:55therapy sessions have been more kind of like talking about, you know, what’s what’s going on. Like, for example, my

21:02mom just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. So, that was a session. And then this pregnancy was a session. And so,

21:09it’s it’s I feel like it’s been hard to get to the root of things because it’s things just keep happening.

21:15Yeah. Yeah. There’s you’re getting you’re getting hammered right now.

21:21Um, so I if it’s okay with you, maybe I would just walk you through like the

21:30maybe the structure that I have in my head when I’m trying to help someone like you in my office. Yeah.

21:35Um, and kind of little bits and pieces of the road map that I find to be effective even though it’s even though

21:41it’s a process more than it is a quick solution. Yeah, that’d be great. Okay. So, um, on a scale of like when

21:50you wake up in the morning, can can you pause and just check in with yourself on a scale of 0 to 10 on where you’re at

21:57with a few key emotions? And so, you wake up in the morning and you’re like, with anxiety, 0 to 10,

22:04where am I at? With depression or sadness, 0 to 10, where am I at? And,

22:09you know, pick out three or four other emotions and just rate yourself 0 to 10 where you’re at.

22:16Is that something that you could do? Would you have the mindfulness enough to be able to to notice that?

22:22Yeah. Okay. So, in a time of life like this,

22:27you’re probably spending a lot of time somewhere on the upper ranges between say 8 and 10.

22:33Yeah. Is that is that true? Yeah. Yeah. And 8 and 10 is what we call

22:38flooded stage. And that’s where that’s where the thinking brain has a hard time staying online.

22:45the emotional part of the body and and the being is the is the thing that’s

22:50going into the driver’s seat because it’s feeling so threatened all the time and so scared. That’s when you’re that’s like all that triggered and that

22:56overwhelmness is happening. That’s why you’ve been trying to find space and try to figure out a way to to not be in that

Survival Mode

23:028 to 10 range all the time. Yeah. Right. So, so you’re doing the right things there that when we’re in 8 to 10

23:10on a on a scale of 0 to 10, there is no real problem solving. There’s no real

23:16deep work that’s going to be happening in terms of like like the deeper

23:21solutions because right now you’re just in survival mode. Yeah. And so you’ve done some DBT. This is

23:28where the DBT skills of crisis survival are going to come in. where if I wake up and I’m at an eight or higher, the first

23:35thing I’m going to do is drop everything else. I’m going to focus on two or three simple skills. I’m going to do something

23:41like box breathing. Um, are you familiar with box breathing? Do you any do any

23:46kind of breath work kind of stuff? Is that the with it the paired muscle relaxation type thing?

23:53Yeah, some of that stuff. So, it’s a really simple like box breathing is really simple. It’s just basically a count of four in, hold, four, out, four,

24:01hold four. So you’re basically doing a box while you breathe of in, hold, out,

24:06hold, in, hold, out, hold. Um, and what you’re doing is you’re actually you’re actually getting a couple of things

24:13activated in your brain to help bring you into a grounded state. One is you’re

24:18now something that’s would normally happen automatically, you have to put the focus on in the moment to make it

24:24happen that way, which is then bringing you into the moment and into your own body. And then as you count, numbers

24:32reside up in the prefrontal cortex of the brain. So as you do the count, you’re actually bringing the prefrontal

24:38cortex on line with what’s going on with all the emotional stuff, too. Okay? And so what you’ll find is you’re

24:43actually getting yourself to kind of stay in this almost like bring yourself and your emotional reactivity down and

24:50start to be grounded just a little bit more. Okay. So that kind of stuff or other kinds of

24:55breath work or deep relaxation or you know DBT teaches that you use the five senses to ground yourself. So you can

25:03you know you can find anything of related to the five senses that will soothe you or ground you. you know, um

25:10that can be that can be just really really important before you even make any other decisions in your day because

25:17at an 8 to 10 it’s just too much. Yeah. Right. So, um and then on a daily basis

Daily Charge

25:25in our practice, we this is all familiar stuff to you probably, but we encourage our clients to work really hard. They

25:33don’t have to be perfect at it, but to work really hard on something we call the daily charge.

25:38And the daily charge is just an acronym that they check in on and make sure that they’re getting these basics because

25:44this will help provide some emotional resilience. The first one is connection to other people, the right kind of

25:51connection. It sounds like you have some good people in your life. Is that right? Yeah. Um I have a lot of trust issues,

25:58so I don’t like connecting with anyone. Sure. Yeah, that’s Yeah, that’s hard,

26:03especially if you’ve been burned before. Um that can be that can be difficult for a lot of my clients. That’s one of the

26:09places where they really struggle actually. Yeah. Um because there’s a lot of vulnerability in that and there’s a lot

26:16of risk in it and it takes often it takes some work to find two or three people who who are the right people to

26:22help hold my stuff. Yeah. Um so that makes sense. But but you’re in the game of you’ve got a good

26:29therapist, you’ve got a 12step group, and um you might consider, you know, you

26:34may consider having some other kind of, you know, more intensive therapy group

26:39or something that would also provide some more team. Yeah. Um and then you have uh then you have

26:46the H which is hobbies and interests. I don’t know if you take much time or or have much time or make much time for any

26:51hobbies or interests right now. um that kind of hit the fan.

26:56Yeah. With the depression, I just have kind of lost interest in everything. So,

27:02yeah. Yeah. That’s kind of It’s weird how depression sort of like sucks the life out of all the good stuff, you

27:07know? Yeah. Yeah. Um which is interesting because part of the solution to depression is

27:13actually to engage in the good stuff even when sometimes it’s hard to want to do it. Yeah.

27:19You know. Um so, what what are like your hobbies? What do you like to do? Um, I love rocks.

27:25I like rock counting and I like shaping the rocks and putting it in jewelry and I love to read and stuff.

27:31Cool. Oh, that’s awesome. What’s interesting about the rock one is that that I mean this is kind of a pun, but it’s also

27:38true. It’s it can also be really grounding. So, um, so so that’s actually probably

27:44something that even if you don’t feel like you want to do it, would actually be a really good thing for you. Yeah. Um uh the A is the practice of

27:52attunement or mindfulness and that could be done in lots of different ways. Different kinds of meditations, imagery

27:59exercises, breathing exercises, yoga. Um but it’s a way of just

28:05cultivating being in your body and in the present moment and not having to do

28:12necessarily anything about it other than just to notice yourself and and be with yourself. Um

28:19and that can be really helpful for people. Yeah. Um the a the R is getting proper rest,

28:27sleep, relaxation, time to decompress. Um how do you do with that right now?

28:34Um it’s it’s good. I feel like um probably too much with

28:41Yeah. the depression. Yeah. Not wanting to do anything. and not not to mention that you’ve got a high-risisk pregnancy going on which now

28:49is probably going to demand some of that. Yeah. So, um and G is we it’s for God or

28:57spirituality. It’s the wrestle with things bigger than ourselves and being willing to to put oursel into that

29:04wrestle whatever that’s going to be for you. Yeah. And uh and then the the E is exercise,

29:11physical exercise, which which I believe is maybe the best anti-depressant in the world personally.

29:18Um which is hard when you don’t want to exercise, but that’s again that’s like

29:23it’s part of the solution. Yeah. you know. So, so, so what you’ve

29:29got now on this road map is you’ve got, okay, I need to do something to ground myself first every day if I’m at 8 to

29:3510. And then on my day-to-day living, I’m just going to try to cultivate as much of the daily charge as I possibly

Finding Strength

29:41can because that’s going to do a few things. That’s going to ground me further. It’s going to put emotional

29:48energy into my tank that I can then burn with all this other stuff that I’m dealing with. And maybe the biggest part

29:54of that daily charge is every time I do something related to my

30:00daily charge, I’m actually doing something to cultivate my heart and my feeling towards myself that I’m worth

30:07taking care of. And that’s really, really important when it comes to setting boundaries because

30:14we allow ourselves to be treated right up to the level that we believe we deserve to be treated. Yeah. And

30:19so if I’m building myself in all of the ways that I know how, including the daily charge, that’s going to actually

30:26give me more currency to set the right boundaries that are going to then be wrapped around my values so that I can

30:32feel like I can follow through on whatever it is that I need to when it gets to my boundaries.

30:38Yeah. Is that making sense so far? Yeah. Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah. Cool. So, so that’s just kind of

30:45and we haven’t even really gotten to like all the big solutions or answers yet, but those things are like the

30:50groundwork that done consistently start to lead you to this place that I was talking about

30:56with the like the surrender moment. Yeah. Right. where you’re you’re living in

31:01this place where it’s entirely possible that you could go to the beach with your husband and your husband could be just

31:09like like totally like a bull elk in the rut just all over the beach, you know,

31:15and you could somehow still internally find a place where you could find peace.

31:20You you’d probably make some decisions and set some boundaries that would go along with that peace in order to keep it. But it’s entirely possible that you

31:28could grow yourself to a place where you could actually have that kind of peace. Okay.

31:33Um which is really really really hard to do especially when you’ve been living in this like survival place for so long.

31:40Yeah. Right. Um I’m talking a lot. What’s on

31:45what are you what are you picking up? What are you hearing? Is this helping with what your question was?

31:51Yeah. I think that I’m needing to do, you know, more more work on myself

31:57before I can confidently make the decision. Um, I guess I just feel stuck

32:04in the sense of how to protect myself while I’m working on myself.

32:11Yeah. Yeah. Right. and and and again knowing where you’re working, what level

32:17of boundaries you need to make sure you don’t get sucked all the way out to that deep water of a 10 every single day.

32:24Yeah. Right. And it sounds like you’re trying to do that with like physical proximity in your boundaries,

32:30right? It sounds like that’s mostly what your boundaries are about is not getting overwhelmed or kind of like smothered.

32:36Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s I just feel like I’ve like

32:41with the our biggest issue right now is the the checking out other women and

32:47stuff like that. And so like I said at first I set the boundary of no, I’m not going any places with him where there’s

32:52water involved. But then it’s restaurants, it’s church, it’s everywhere. And so then I feel like I

32:59need to set the boundary of okay, I’m just not going to go anywhere with you. And then it’s like, okay, well then, you

33:06know what I mean? Then then I feel like I hit a wall of well that’s not really possible kind of thing.

33:12Sure. Can you can you tell me what that process is like for you? Like let’s just take this most recent situation where

33:19like you go out to some public thing and this is going on like what’s the internal process that you experience?

33:27So this most recent one was it was at a church event. It was a missionary homecoming and we were just sitting at a

33:34table eating and I see this girl walk in and I have become so attuned that I can

33:40tell which which person is going to be an issue for him. And what I think

33:47another thing that made it so difficult is like I feel like after 14 months things like

33:55this shouldn’t be such a problem. You know, I’m I’m not saying like I think you should be able to go to a strip club

34:00and be fine and not trigger not thing. But I feel like a church event you should be fine this far along if you if

34:08you are sober. You know what I mean? And so as soon as I see her, then I look at him, which I shouldn’t. I should have

34:15just got up and left. I know that. But um and then he looks at her a couple

34:20times and then um I said that I was ready to go and I took my kiddo and we

34:27went into the car and and he came out later and we left

34:33and and that’s like there wasn’t any other further discussion or anything. That’s just what happened. No, I I bring

34:39it up to him after the fact and and he’s gotten to a point where he, you know, he

34:44will admit it, say, “I’m sorry, and it won’t happen again.” But of course, I keep myself. Um, but like, I don’t know.

34:52I guess for me, I’m having a hard time wrapping around my head how you can have sobriety but be triggered by things like

34:59this cuz like this girl was his like second cousin. Like, you know what I

35:05mean? So like to me it just it’s doesn’t make sense. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So So this um

35:14so there’s been over a year of recovery work slashs sobriety from like the bigger acting out parts of it.

35:21Yes. So and so theoretically theoretically your husband’s working on what the 12 steps would refer to as a progressive victory

35:28over lust, right? which is, you know, usually they start from like the most damaging kinds of behaviors and then as

35:35they grow into their recovery, they start seeing more and more of where they want to continue to conquer their lust.

35:40And currently where it’s at is it sounds like any place that you guys go maybe on

35:46both sides. It’d be interesting to talk to your husband about this. Maybe on both sides there’s like this almost like

35:52hyper alertness and hyperfocus on other women who are going to be there.

36:00Is that is that true? Uh, I think I don’t I don’t know because it’s like it it didn’t like I wasn’t triggered by any

36:08other person there until I saw this person that I knew was going to trigger him. So, it’s not just I

36:14don’t feel like it’s like women in general. I feel like I’ve become attuned to his triggers. And so, when I see

36:20those, I get triggered. Yeah. It’s like it’s like dominoes. It’s like a chain reaction.

36:26Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s like you’re on high alert watching for like the potential threat.

36:31The potential threat shows up, which already kind of gets you on high alert, and then you notice him doing whatever

36:38he does, which then sends you even higher, and then boom, it’s off to the races, and then that’s where you’re kind

36:44of stuck in that like flooded state again. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Which is which, by the way,

36:50I think is extremely normal given the circumstance that you guys are in. Yeah. So, so I’m wondering if there’s a

36:57different maybe a different approach and a different discussion to have than the one you guys end up having.

37:04Um, where you say whatever it was like, I noticed you noticing and that’s not

37:09okay with me. And then he’s like, I’m sorry, it will never happen again. Um, I

37:15wonder if I wonder if there was a again, this is hard because because you’d

37:21already have to in order for what I’m going to about to say to be something that could be helpful, there already has

37:27to be like a feeling that that the recovery is actually being sincere.

37:32Um, so if you don’t feel that way, then your boundaries are probably right where they need to be and you’re probably

37:37moving in the in the direction that you should be moving anyway. But if you feel like there’s some changes happening and there’s some work happening, it’s almost

37:44like if there was a way to have a different kind of discussion, it could actually help the process maybe for both

37:50of you, which would be more like, hey, I noticed this and this and this today.

37:56This is what I’m trying to work on letting go, but I also noticed it was hard for me to take that. And then him instead of going like, oh, I’m sorry

38:02it’ll never happen again. And it would be more in the lines of like I know this is really really hard and it’s something

38:08I’m working on and I’m going to keep working on it with an understanding that I’ll probably never like this and this

38:14would be really hard for him to say but I’ll probably never notice when that woman walks in the room. What

38:19I will do is I’ll learn how to become better and better at making sure that I’m putting my attention and energy into

38:25the places that really matter. Yeah. Um, I would bet that even that

38:30response, even though you don’t like it, is more honest and you’d rather have that than I’m sorry, it’ll never happen

38:36again. Yeah. I guess I just I wish I could see progress with that particular issue. But

38:44every single time it happens, he does the same thing. like even before like we’ve talked about like what

38:52his plan would be if he is triggered and you know what I mean and then he doesn’t follow through with his plan and you

38:58know what I mean? So I feel like he he hasn’t shown like he’s shown progress in in overcoming pornography and

39:05masturbation and that’s great but it doesn’t feel like it’s enough because this particular issue causes me so much

39:12pain. Yeah. Talk to me more about that pain for a minute. like what is the story

39:17that’s wrapped up in it for you when you notice these things happening? I guess for me like

39:27I tell myself like there’s no way that someone who loves me could so openly

39:34disrespect me and treat me like that when they know I’m It’s not like he

39:39thinks I’m not noticing that he’s doing that. He’s doing it right in front of me. I’m sitting right next to you.

39:44Yeah. Like, how can you tell me you you care for me when you continue to do this? You know what I mean? Like, I’ve

39:51even said like it would hurt me less for him to be acting out with pornography and masturbation than for him to be

39:57openly doing this in front of me cuz it just feels like such a a disregard and a

40:02disrespect and just like I do not care. All I care about is getting my fix in this moment.

40:08So, there’s a feeling of in your mind. So, so there’s a couple of things then going on. Number one, there’s some values that you just started to speak

40:14here that are coming to the surface. I value being chosen. I value being respected. I value being like having my

40:20partner attuned to what’s important to me. Even though maybe he doesn’t always agree with me, you can at least know that.

40:26Yeah. There’s also like this feeling of um

40:31like being disregarded. Um, and all of that stuff is the stuff that

40:38that is the bones of what makes up your next set of good boundaries because it’s going to be about those values, right?

40:45That the other side of that is um, and this is really really hard

40:52is that yeah, I don’t like if I’m out in public and I’m doing these things, I would hope my wife would say, “Hey, Tyler, are you here with me or with

40:58her?” And then I’d be like, “Oh yeah, like I’m here with you. Like let me recalibrate.” But if I’m not going to do

41:04that and I’m going to continue to pursue all those other things, then I would hope that my wife because of those other

41:10values would say, “Hey, you know what? Like, I’m gonna I’m going to go drive home. You can you can find a ride home,

41:16you know? Um because because I’m not going to sit here and just be a part of it, but I’m also not going to be like

41:24there’s like a line of where I don’t also need to take it personal.” Yeah. Right. That’s I guess that’s what

41:32I have a hard time with is like it it feels like such a massive thing. Like it

41:39it feel like I I don’t know. It just feels

41:46like I don’t know how to describe it. It just feels I don’t know if I I’m reacting to

41:53it more than what’s called for or I have a with with the borderline I have a hard time telling

41:59whether my reactions are you know under over at the right mark and and so like

42:07this is something that like I couldn’t I couldn’t just be okay while he’s doing

42:13that. I I couldn’t I wouldn’t be okay. I would end up like lashing out and just

42:19being a very cruel person. And so I like even like where you gave the example of

42:24your wife saying, “Hey, are you here with her? Are you here with me?” If he recalibrated and then became present

42:30with me in the moment, I wouldn’t be able to just bypass what I was what I was feeling and going back to connecting

42:35with him. I would be so angry. Yeah. We knew him. I don’t want to talk to you. I don’t care what you do. Just you

42:41know what I mean? Yeah. Right. which which I think is normal like on like anyone anyone in

42:48your shoes having been through what you’ve been through with some of the past trauma and deception that’s been there of course is going to have those

42:55feelings come up on some level right and but that’s but that’s also the place where you do have some control over is

43:01to say okay I don’t want to detach from my own values but I don’t I don’t want

43:08to live the game of comparison right so that that’s the part so that’s

43:13when like the This is another DBT skill, but they call it checking the facts. So now I’m sitting here. I’m saying, “Okay,

43:19I’m having all of this. Given our past history, given what I’ve been through, given my own personality, it makes sense that I’m feeling X, Y, and Z. Based off

43:26of these values, what would be the right thing to do to protect these values?”

43:32Right? Now, of course, there’s going to still be some level of of other feeling and emotion that’s there that could

43:37also, it doesn’t mean you stuff it. It can also be processed or shared or discussed or maybe you do take your time

43:44out and leave and then you call somebody else and flush that all out because he’s not in a space to hold it anyway.

43:50Yeah. Um so it doesn’t mean you dismiss yourself. It means you’re kind of checking the facts and saying, “Okay,

43:55what what would be like effective for me right now?” Right? And if and if if it’s

44:01not going to be effective to sit there and like pretend like everything’s okay, then don’t do that, right? But it’s also

44:07probably not going to be effective to have it blow up so big that now all of a sudden you can’t go to a church party

44:13because because you’re so attached to whatever his problems are.

44:19Yeah. Right. And that’s the internal that’s that’s an internal work in process that takes some time, you know, that I think

44:26you’re already in it sounds like you’re already doing a lot of good work on that. It’s just a process.

44:31Yeah. So, um I know we’re we’re getting pretty short on time here. Jessica, are are we

44:39on the right track for the help that you were looking for today? Do you have other thoughts or feelings? No, I think it’s I think it’s just I

44:46mean like I would love for an easy simple answer. leave or don’t leave, but

44:52notable. And I think that it’s just gonna be, like you said, more more work on myself

44:57and getting to a point where I can make that decision in a sound mind.

45:05Yeah. Yeah. I I know that the people that I work with and I’ve worked with through the years, when they do that

45:11kind of work, it’s it’s not really even a one-time destination. And it’s like they find a way to learn to ground and

45:17trust themselves and then they lose it and then they do it again. But they get better and better at it. And so they spend more and more time grounded and

45:24with a clear perspective and less and less time kind of out on those fringes.

45:29And once they’ve they’re more and more grounded, that’s when they kind of settle in and go, you know what, like I wish I wish I could give you the answer.

45:36I don’t I don’t know your situation well enough to know what’s right for you. But what I do know is is that when you are

45:44grounded in a place where your mind is clear enough to overlap with what’s going through your body and your

45:50emotions, that’s the best place to make decisions from. Okay?

45:55And so when you’re in those spaces, you’ll kind of feel it. There’ll be like almost like this like uh I call it

46:01peace. There’s groundedness. There’s also like some clarity. Exercise that. So when you have a moment

46:07of that peace and clarity and you have a little impression that’s like, “Hey, I should do this today, follow it,

46:15exercise it, and every time you’re in that grounded state, when you have those impressions, whatever they are to do

46:20this or don’t do that or make that call or don’t do that, just follow through on it. Just exercise it because you can

46:27train yourself into knowing, okay, I can trust myself to make decisions when I’m in that grounded place.”

46:33Okay? So, um, thank you. Thank you for coming on the

46:38show today. I I’m feeling so much like energy of wanting to like support you

46:44with everything that you’re going through right now. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you for having the courage to come on, especially with everything

46:50that’s on your plate. Thank you. Yeah. Um, thank you to our listeners for

46:56being here. Hopefully, this is helpful to you. If it rings a bell for you or someone that you know, um, please share

47:02it with other people. That’s our way of being able to reach the world and help people. And uh if you feel but if you

47:08feel Jessica, there’s a couple ways that you can support her. One would be to just to leave a review and mention her

47:13episode and uh throw out a shout out of support there to her. Uh the other place

47:18that you can go is you can go to reclaimyouheart.org and you can start up a discussion just

47:24on that main page there. That’s the platform Brand and I are using to kind of just try to build a community and

47:30throw out Jessica’s episode and have a discussion around it. So, um, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for

47:35your support. And until next time, keep on keeping