What Is Ambiguous Grief?

Intro banter & setup

What is ambiguous grief? Brandon, what’s going on, man?Not much. We missed you on Saturday, dude. I’m I’m so sad I missed it. I was looking forward to it. You guys have agood time. Oh, it was a blast. It was It was It was really fun. Um,but I got Yeah, I got I got some welts. So, we went so the audience knows whatwe’re talking about is we went paintballing and um got together with a bunch of bunch ofold kind of guys from Rising Sun and stuff, right? Yeah. just the community and yeah,it was awesome to see some of the guys and um so anyways, we went paintballing andat one point like I’m laying on the ground and McCall um he like hunts medown and I don’t know he’s like behind me just looking at me laying there, you know, he’s like 10 feet away and I’mthink, you know, all of a sudden I get hit in the in the hip, the elbow, andthe face like boom boom boom and I’m like I’m like dude you could have shot me once like in the butt like how comeyou have to like drill me all the way down my body likeit sounds like McCall and and and if you were in the same spot you would have done the same thing. Oh, if it’s McCall again like I’m goingstraight for the the back of the head.I’m just kidding. Um Oh yeah, man. Well, I’m glad you had a good time. Yeah, that’s awesome. And yougot to take your son with you, too, right? We got Say that again. You got to take Reed with you, too. Yourson. Yeah, that was awesome. So, have having him is is awesome. So,yeah, you have to come next time. We got to do it soon because we got the equipment and uh it’s it’s a lot of fun.I It’s a good time. It’s a good time. So, yeah. Well, we uh we got another review. I want to I want to read Brandon beforewe jump in with our topic and our guest today. Um, so this is this just came through. First and foremost, thank youto everybody who leaves us any type of feedback or reviews. We uh we love having your participation with us. So,this one you’re going to this is going to make your head a little big, Brandon, today, but that’s okay. Um, it says

Welcoming Laura & today’s topic

I love how you have to like say that.Can I just Can I just get a compliment? I’m the oldest. You know what it’s like being the older brother? I’m never goingto let you actually like win, right? Okay. Okay. So, scratch my last comment. Enjoythis. Enjoy this review, Brandon. All right. Thanks, Tyler. All right. Um, it says, “TBS uh forpresident. Brandon and Tyler are the bravest and wisest men in the public sphere in this country. I mean it. I’m aliberal dharma practicing leftist woman, and I listen to them religiously. Their combination of faith, compassion,warrior spirit, and intelligent therapeutic approaches to shame and trauma are exactly what we need to heal as individuals and as a nation. I maynot agree with them about everything, but that doesn’t matter. They help me understand my husband’s experience inways that help us so much. Plus, they understand women’s experience without needing to privilege or disparage it inrelation to men’s experience. Brandon, the world needs your book. Please publish.Yeah, that that was awesome. Yeah, that was really nice. That was really really thoughtful.Nice. Thank you for going out of your way to to leave such kind words. Well, and I love how she’s highlightingthat we like we don’t agree on everything. you know, maybe we’re a bit more conservative or whatever, but likethat’s the beauty of that’s the beauty of it is we can all be a little bit different and we can all still come tosome place of discussion and find some truth together and and healing together and um so that that was awesome. So I’llkeep working on the book.So that sounds good. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for your feedback. Thanks to everybody who listens and participates with us in whatever way we get thatfeedback. So, um, let’s jump into it today. Brandon, yeah, we have one of our

What is ambiguous grief?

favorite people here with us today again. So, LA, welcome back. Hi, thanks for having me.Yeah. Um, and I I feel like I don’t need to introduce you too much, but uh maybeyou can introduce yourself again a little bit and then just talk about uh the topic and what we’re getting intotoday. Okay. Yeah, great. So, I’m Lara. I’m a therapist um based in Texas, but um Ihave the privilege of working with uh Brandon and Tyler with uh Reclaim Your Heart. So, I’m excited about that. Umand today I just wanted to talk about ambiguous grief. Um I’ve mentioned thisbefore, but I I’ve experienced betrayal myself. And so, um, I I have this, Iguess, unique perspective of having experienced it and then also being a therapist. So, I wanted to come on and talk about ambiguous grief, especiallyafter betrayal and what that looks like when that feels like. So, so don’t be ambiguous aboutambiguous grief. And so, so what is it like if like this term, what what areyou talking about? Yes. So ambiguous grief iswhat we experience the distress and the you know emotional roller coaster afterlosing something not through death. So, we’re all familiar with grief, you know,losing a loved one, but ambiguous grief, it’s a little more confusing because wedidn’t lose that person through death, but we lost them through something else. Like whether that be a friendshipbreakup or um you know, not going no contact with somebody or in this case umlosing what you thought your marriage was after betrayal happens.Mhm. It it seems that one of the reasons why we call it ambiguous loss is that it’suh the word ambiguous is exactly what it means is it’s the person who’sexperiencing that ambiguous grief is experiencing the stages of grief oversomething that’s shifted their life, changed their life. It might even be something like I was thinking when you were talking getting both of my hipsreplaced actually elicited ambiguous loss and grief. And and what it means isis that the the organism of the human being is feeling the process of grief,but they can’t often find the words to describe what the grieving is because the losses are hard to put their fingeron sometimes. Mhm. But but the life that you had before is no longer. And so yes, withwith you know physical or medical things too like you you know you you lived your life a certain way then you had a bigchange a big transition and that life is no longer now you have to readjust to your new life. I think a lot of times we don’t thinkabout it as brief. Um like I I sold my business this year and last week I hadto go back to it and I had to just walk around it and do some stuff. And so I was walking around it and I had allthese feelings like I had all this stuff come up and I I realized like whoa likemy life really changed this year a lot and I you know do I think about it asgrief and it absolutely is grief. When I was there last week having all these feelings come up it was feelings ofgrief. Um but you know you don’t think about it that way like you you know youthink about death or or something like that. So yeah, big life changes thatshift your life, you go through a process of grief. And I think I thinkmaybe we can talk specifically, Lara, about betrayal and how like this ambiguous grief playsinto betrayal. Yes. So um there’s a few things with

Ambiguous grief after betrayal

ambiguous grief after betrayal. One of the things is that um it it feelslike you lost your spouse. It feels like you lost the marriage, but it’s notobvious to everyone else. So, you know, people on the outside still see you guys together or maybe they know what’shappening, but that person is still alive. So, you don’t get the samesupport and comfort that you would as if your spouse had died. you know, peoplebringing food and things like that, but it feels that way. Um,and so that’s hard. And so I think a a big part of me wanting to come on andtalk about this is that for people who have been betrayed, they need to recognize this in themselves becauseit’s not recognized with other people. And so you kind of have to recognize this ambiguous grief yourself that youare grieving. You are grieving a marriage, a relationship, the person you thought you married. Um,and I think especially sometimes with family members or friends, um, if theydo know about the betrayal, they maybe want to help or they want to help youmake a choice whether to leave or to stay, but they miss that part of thegrief that you need support in. They miss the fact that you’re grieving andmaybe doing chores or um, doing your regular things around the house areharder now. Um, and some and so sometimes people want to people thinkit’s just a choice of of whether leaving or staying, but really the person who just experienced it is grieving andthey’re in shock, they’re angry, they’re depressed, um, they have low capacity for things. Um, so that’s that’s one bigthing after betrayal that it’s not obvious and and so you kind of have togive yourself space to grieve, uh, to set boundaries, to say no to things, or to let people in, those close to you, tosay, “Hey, I learned that I’m grieving. It doesn’t seem like it cuz, you know, my partner’s still around, but mymarriage is over as I knew it. And so I need I just need support. I don’t need advice. I don’t need you to um youropinion and if I need to stay or go. I just need you to be there for me as I’m grieving.Mhm. I I think LA to to your point there’s two thoughts going through my head asyou’re talking and I’m picturing so many of my like my clients and um the first one is is that to use this framework Ithink is sometimes helpful for someone who’s been betrayed because they themselves don’t even really understandwhy am I so much more irritable right now or why am I so much more checked out with my kids right now or why like andand they don’t even understand that they’re grieving and because of that then they incur more self- judgment onthemselves and start saying, “I’m failing at this or I’m not good at that or I’ve I’m the one with all of theseproblems and it’s all my fault.” Um, and then secondly, it seems, and this issomething that is kind of tragic, but a lot of times the person who’s been betrayed and is in the midst of thesekind of stages of grief, which by the way, let’s just get them out there for everyone again, denial, bargaining,anger, depression, acceptance, that kind of bouncing around in all of those different places.They may not even know they’re doing it. If they do know they’re doing it, everyone else around them doesn’t understand that that’s what’s going onfor them. And it’s hard for them to even put into language sometimes either because they can’t find the words for itor they feel like they’ve got to do some protecting of their partner or their old life or something else. And so they’releft in this little world where now other people are also piling on judgment maybe unknowingly or unintentionally.And so it’s like this squeeze that gets put on top of the already painful situation of trying to navigate the lossof everything that’s gone on. It’s the just to add on to what you’resaying, Tyler, the complexities of betrayal trauma are like it’s it’s hardto even explain it because sometimes betrayal is is more painfulthan death. like losing a loved one to death. And yet you’re then thrust outinto this this really kind of world where you’re all alone in it and nobodyreally understands what you’re navigating uh and working through and you look acertain way and like to to the outside world and internally you’re going through all of this stuff and it’s just

Grieving past, present, and future

really hard. Like I had a friend who she got betrayed and um and and I watchedher in different, you know, different areas of life at church or with theneighbors or whatever, you know, and it’s like in my in my heart because ofwhat I do for a living, I’m like I I I know there’s so much more there going oninside of her. Um but but I also understand that to everybody else theydon’t they don’t get it. Um and the betrayed they just don’t get the supportthat they need often times from other people to process this grief. It can be really difficult to move through thisgrief. Yes. Um because yeah how y’all weresaying like there’s this added component of judgment and pressure. you know,I myself received some comments like um well, didn’t you know or didn’t you,you know, suspect or didn’t you see it coming type of comments um which arejudgmental um but also those are the worst comments. That’s like the worst thing you could say.I know. Um and things like that where whenever you lose a spouse to death,people usually aren’t judgmental. They’re like, “Oh man, he was a great guy.” And you know, they lift them upand you and with betrayal trauma, you get the opposite of like, “Well, that’s why he was like this.” Or, “Oh, thatmakes what?” Like, yeah, uh, I’m I’m I’m grieving I’m grieving my marriage right now, and those are nothelpful. Um, but they’re very, yeah, complicated to navigate through because people think they’re helping. Um, butit’s like before you even get to a semblance of making a choice,you you just lost something that’s so um integrated into your life like yourmarriage, the person you chose. And so there’s a lot of grief there. Um, as well as something that’s different umwith, you know, losing a spouse through death is that with betrayal trauma, youyour future with them becomes blurry and unclear. And so, you know, there’s all these questions of like, are we gonna betogether? What does that look like? You know, how I imagine my um just my kidsgrowing up with them and our marriage and all of that. So, all of that becomes a big blur. Um but so does the past,which is not something that happens, I think, with you know, losing a loved one through death so much is that you don’tquestion their intentions. But with betrayal trauma, you’re like, “Okay, so whenever we went on that trip, they weredoing this or they were acting out in that way. So that was that even real?” And so you start like the past becomesreally blurry as well. Um, and painful too. And then of course you’re dealing with the crisis of the present. Um, Iwas I was leading this betrayal trauma group once and I had this client share that she told her husband that she feltlike her husband was killed and that the guy living with her was the one thatkilled him. Um, and I thought that was so powerful cuz that’s what it that’s what it feels like, right? Like my my husband died andyou person that now I am getting to know you’re the one who killed him. Um, andso that’s that’s the present of somebody who’s going through material trauma. So, yeah, it’s a lot.I I’m sure there’s a lot of people right now a lot of listening listening to this and saying, I can relate to that. Likeit’s almost hitting home like, oh, maybe I am in this place of like ambiguousloss. I haven’t been able to find words for it yet. Um, can we go into a littlebit LA some of your thoughts on how do you navigate this? Like how howdo you actually allow yourself or step into or what what helps in the process of of moving into this ambiguous loss,this grieving process? Yeah. I think um number one is learningabout it. Um kind of like we’re doing now and having awareness of the stages of grief. Um yeah, which are anger,denial, bargaining, depression, acceptance as you said before and and letting yourselffeel the weight of it like if you have to take the ambiguity out of it and andsay like I lost my spouse, you know, to yourself, you know, I lost a marriage, I lost our dreams and hopes and future.Um, and treat yourself like somebody who lost a spouse, like awidow. Um, give yourself some some space. Give yourself time to cry. Um,reach out to loved ones that can support you and share the weight of what itmeans to lose a marriage in this way. Um, and this is not to say thatthere can’t be a new marriage, but the one that there was is is is over um as

Rituals to honor your story

you knew it. Um, one thing that I think it’scan be really cool too is forming a like doing a ritual around it.I remember listening to another podcast when I was going through everything and um the the therapist was talking abouthow rituals are important and they’re part of our culture and they commemoratethings and honor things. And so um you know whenever welose a loved one through death there’s a lot of rituals. There’s a funeral and you know according to your culture there’s things that you do. There’s mealtrains. there’s um music, like all of these things. And sothat’s that’s a way of like that can help with closure. And so you can do aritual yourself, whatever that looks like. And maybe if your partner umcan participate, that can be that can be good for the marriage as well. I know that for me, I I did a ritual and wejust got like um like an earn type thing from like a a secondhand store and thenwe got to break a bunch of stuff that was involved in the betrayal like phoneum and pictures and we ripped them up and just like kind of commemorating theend of that marriage and then putting it in the urn and we still have the urns inin our kitchen and So yeah, just just forming a ritual aroundit can be helpful too to to market the importance of I think I I love that. But and I but Ithink in order to to do something like that, you have to like first giveyourself permission to acknowledge it and know like I think a lot of times thebetrayed almost feels like their pain isn’t validated in like okay that youknow I love what you’re you’re saying LA because it’s look I accept that our marriage is over and your marriage wasover. Your old marriage died. Like it’s it’s over. And so I in order to in orderto go that far with it, I need to acknowledge that that’s true. Um and ifthat’s true, then I can start to process this grief. So I can start to dorituals. I can I can really cry. I can journal. I can do all this stuff. I canget a support group. All this stuff because I am acknowledging that this pain is real. It’s valid. what’shappened is real. So now, so you got to get out of that denial stage in order tomove into some of the things that you’re talking about. Um, which can be hard todo. Um, like I’ve worked with I’ve worked with plenty of betrayed people and sometimes they’re like, “Look, Idon’t want to face or acknowledge the fact of the things that have happened. Like I don’t want to look at it. I don’tlike I I don’t I don’t want to come to therapy. I don’t want to do this because I don’t want to face it. It’s going tobe really hard to process that grief unless you’re willing to to face it some.So, Brandon, I uh to go along with what you’re saying there, just to and to tie together what La just sharedthe example that she just gave that is actually shows all of what you justsaid, Brandon. She had to take the time to go find and earn, right? She had to then come back andsay, “What are the things that I can put in there that symbolize the breaking of this old thing, the loss of this thing,of that thing?” She went through old pictures. She went through old devices. She went through You can hear theprocessing happening in the midst of that ritual. So, it’s not that she just found an urn and threw a bunch of stuffin. It was like, “Oh, I’m all better.” It was like the that whole process was in and of itself sort of anacknowledgment of some of these stages of grief that are there and and I think what you’re saying is true. Um I I wouldeven say that sometimes helping to crystallize that’s what that’s kind of what thatexample was loud I think that you shared is it it helped to crystallize that there is a story here that mattersand um you know something that I do sometimes goes along with this is I’llhave my clients do what I call an assessment of losses and I’ll have them go across a lot of different areas oflife physical social spiritual emotional sexual etc And I’ll have them actuallynot only write down in words, but create an art project, some kind of a collage or a poster board or stick figures orsometimes I do music or poetry or something else. But what it’s what I’m trying to do is help them find a way tocrystallize, oh yeah, that stuff has been affected. Um, not to stay a victim,but to then start to say, now I can now I have something tangible that I can truly start grieving. And and then theother part that I’d say is that then leads to the next step which is they’ve got a story now and that story is worthtelling and that story matters and that’s where that validation piece comes in Brandon that you’re talking about isso many partners never feel fully validated a lot of times because they can never find the words to tell the story.Well, it’s hard to be validated too when you go out in the world and you just feel judged. So it’s like welleverybody’s looking at me like get over this or it’s your fault that it happened or whatever. It’s hard to feel validated

How to support a betrayed partner

of and I think I think that’s where you got to do your own work internally of like you know what forget everybody elselike my pain is this is between God and I and that’s where I’m going to start and the people that will come in andvalidate and support me. They’ll they’ll they’ll come in and do that. But I first and foremost need to give myselfpermission to hurt and to feel this pain. Right.Yeah. Yeah. And and I think and I think we talk about this in the healing journey of how healing is circular andit goes around. Um and so yeah, sometimes we even have to wrestle withthe fact that we even have to grieve. Like we’re in denial about grieving. Um and so we kind of have to move into alittle bit of acceptance into the fact that we need to grieve and then it’s like the other ring around thethe tree trunk. Um but yeah it takes time like that the theearn ritual I we didn’t do it till you know a year and a half after um beforethen I also did other rituals too um I remember I did one with my friends umwhen everything first happened and just to be surrounded by you know a couple of friends that really understood that Iwas grieving and didn’t judge me and they braided my hair and you know we wejust did um woman things I guess but but just yeahto accept that pain that this is this is huge and and it’s it’s complicated andum to acknowledge it for yourself. Um so I like the the list thing that you were saying Tyler of like how has thisaffected all aspects of my life? Um andyeah to to create a story and to believe your own story. Um, another thing thatwas really powerful too, and this was way after, um, way later in my healingjourney, maybe like two and a half years, I don’t know. Um, actually created my my story. I recreated the howit happened that day. Um, what I went through, the the emotions that I experienced, how it impacted me. Um, andI read it to to my spouse in therapy. Um, and it wasn’t blaming him orattacking him. It was just me. My story and me saying like, “My story matters.That day changed my life. This is me honoring it, and I want to let you in tothat.” And he was able to to hold me there and to um, yeah, it was it was areally healing moment. And so, I think that’s why acknowledging our griefmatters. It’s really acknowledging that our story matters, that that hasimpacted us, and we need to honor that. And that looks like grief, right? Likeum there’s this quote in the Marvel series that I like. It’s about love andgrief and how grief is just um love transformedafter after loss, after death. So there’s grief because there was love.You would never grieve if you didn’t have love. Yeah.Yeah. I like being able to take that and and recognize that that is inevitbasically the grief is evidence of the life. It’s the it’s the having thrown into something that really mattered andum and it and it’s something that we none of us can avoid in life. Um to to what you’re saying too, I just anotherthought that kind of came to my mind while you were talking is is that you know we have uh if we have a loss ofsomebody that actually passes away you know especially if it’s somebody that seems close to us our lives instantly inin an instant they change in terms of what becomes important where we put our time where we put our energy. Most of usare instantly taking time off of work. We’re spending more time with our loved ones. We’re going into places where wecan have self-care, share stories, love each other, be with each other. Um, andand I think another reason why maybe bringing this topic up and looking at betrayal and the process of grief as asthe the framework that we’re looking at is that it would be okay for somebody who’s experienced betrayal to alsorecognize that it’s okay to alter their priorities in their life. sometimes that that there will be a difference, ashift, a need for self-care, a need for grounding, a need to slow down, a needto not put all the pressure on yourself to perform at whatever level you were beforehand in your life because theemotional part of the the being that we are won’t be able to keep up with it unless it’s attended to. And so that’swhy when we look at recovery from betrayal, one of the first things that we teach people is grounding andself-care. Um because because without that it makes the whole spiral of grief even biggerand harder and heavier to bear. And not not only is it like okay to do that,it’s essential to and and Tyler, I don’t think that that’s a lot of people’sknee-jerk reaction. I think um they’ll they’ll stuff it, they’ll numb it, umthey’ll isolate, um they’ll grit their teeth and bear it.And that’s a lot of what a lot of people will do. Um they on their own they’ll they’ll hold it. And I mean what happenswhat happens when that when that happens addiction goes up, depression, emotionalreactivity, all kinds of stuff like Yeah. health problems. Um all kinds of consequencesstart to hit as a result of our inability or unwillingness to grieve.And what Tyler just said I think is so important and and what you said LA abouttransforming love. The way that that happens is you have to stop and love yourself enough to give yourself spaceto deal with the pain. And nobody want it’s like counterintuitive. Nobody wants to likestop and just feel the pain. But that’s what’s good for you.Yeah. and and it can be transforming because I think especiallyum women we are raised and we’re so used to yeah just putting others above ourour needs and going going for our kids for our family and so to take this time

Presence, healing, and next steps

even though it’s challenging and it’s painful but to take this time to to say hey my pain matters umthat can be transforming because you’re building trust with yourself Um, I thinkthat’s what transformed me the most in in my journey is um, yeah, lettingmyself grieve. I don’t know why, but for some reason I was so scared of being depressed before all of this. Even as atherapist, I was terrified of ever being depressed. Um, and I think because I hadso much pressure on myself to perform for other people and to be there for other people. um even if they weren’tpressuring me themselves, but I had this on myself. And so I took time I took time off. I I quit my job and um I guesswe had the privilege to do that, but not even not really cuz we were struggling.But um I I just couldn’t. And so, you know, when that depressionstage of grief really hit me, I I took time to to be with myself. And thattaught me the the biggest lessons that my again my story does matter. Umand so it was a big way of loving myself and of showing other people how to loveme once I loved myself. I love what you just said right at theend there with like showing other people how to love me in essence leading by example. And I want to get into thatquestion just a side note real quick to what you said. I think you said I was fearful of being depressed. I wasterrified of being depressed. And I hear that so much. I feel that in so many of my clients. And the other place that Ireally feel that in my clients is so many of my clients are terrified of being angry.Um, and there’s there’s some kind of a belief about anger and whether or notit’s okay to be angry. I think we even talked about with this with you last time we were you had us you came on the show with us, but that one that oneseems to styy people and put them back into the denial place in their grieving a lot because they don’t want to have topass through that anger part of what happens when we grieve even though it’s a human part of the process. And solearning to love yourself by allowing yourself to feel and then show other people how to support you because you’retaking care of yourself. Um that’s a that’s a really beautiful thought. Um,next question lauda is right along that line of people are listening to this. There’sprobably multiple partners who have done the betraying that are listening to this. There’s probably people who knowpeople who are friends. Um, how do you support somebody if you understand now that they’re goingthrough a grieving process because of the betrayal they’ve experienced?Yeah. H I think um again taking time tounderstand it and to to see how heavy it is like um to see that that person isgoing through grief. Um and and to ask how you knowwhat would be helpful. But but even to even do things like what we do for for people who lose their spouse throughdeath of like making a meal or just, you know, um supporting them watching TVtogether or um going on a walk, things like that that you would do for somebody who lost a loved one through death, Ithink would be really helpful um for friends of, you know, if you know somebody that has been betrayed becausethat’s what they’re going through. Um, again, no opinions, no judgment, that’s not helpful. No advice that’s nothelpful. Uh, but just to be a listening ear and to realize that, um, it is aroller coaster when somebody has been betrayed. Like it is very, um,reactive. you know, they can have really big moments of um, you know, being angryor depressed or even just, you know, I’m going to stay and then flip-flop to I’mgoing to leave. But be with them through that. Um,because that’s that’s what they’re going through. Like that back and forth is isreally hard. that that um kind of like shocking aspect of it after betrayal.And so just just be there for them and then as a partner who has done thebetraying, just recognize that. Um I know it can be really hard to not go into guilt and shame, right? becauseyou’re the one that elicited this. But um this is the truth of what’s happeningand um this is how it has affected this person because they they loved you somuch. they they love you so much and um to support them and toI I know this is more more complex than this, but to put your shame to the sidea little bit um to support this person that is grieving and then step up in inthe house and um the house roles like chores and taking care of the kids andallowing them to have space to take care of themselves, take a bath, to journal,to cry, to go for walks, um all of that.Um so that they they’re more free to grieve.Yeah. That I think some things to consider like think think of the don’ts in terms of helping someone orsupporting someone. So like don’t make it about you um their their pain. Andthat’s a hard one with betrayal. So, so what I mean is like if you if you’re the partner that’s betrayed, I’m not sayingdon’t take accountability for the things that you’ve done, but what I’m saying is your partner is going to process theirpain the way that they need to and it’s theirs to process. And so when you go inand you’re like, “Well, you should be over this by now or um you know, Iyou’re making this out to be a far worse than it actually is.” That’s that’s you defending you. That’s all about you. andand they don’t need you to worry about you right now when they’re in their pain. Um, don’t fix it. Fixing it ismaking it all about you. You’re uncomfortable with their pain, so you want to take that pain away becauseyou’re uncomfortable with it. Don’t fix it. Um,it’s just about space, holding space for what is for them. And that might meanyou change an extra diaper that day because they don’t have the capacity to do it. That might mean that you get in adeep discussion with them and they open up and they cry cry on your shoulder. Umit might mean that that they don’t want to talk to you that day at all. That’s holding space is all that all thosethings. And it’s patience and it’s understanding and it’s being there forthem when when they need you to be and giving them more space when they need you to to give them more space. Um I wastalking to a neighbor whose husband had died of cancer a week before and and Iwent over to her house and we just kind of chatting and and she said, “It’sreally weird. I I’ve spent this past week um like comforting everybody else.It’s okay. Life’s going to be okay. It’s fine. Um and then she’d have like a casseroleshow up on her on her porch, you know, and then like and then she’d have to comfort everybody else. And I wastalking to her and I just thought like all she needs is someone to say like, “Hey,um if if you need anything, someone to talk to or whatever, I’m here for you.”Like it’s not it’s not oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. Oh my gosh. Like that that inand of itself isn’t space. There’s a difference. It’s I see you. I know youmust be in a lot of pain. and however I can be here for you, I’m here. Andthat’s what somebody can do to actually give support through someone else’s grief.Uh could I just like add a couple things to that, Brandon, please andum I agree with you that the default settings are all the don’ts.Yeah, the that’s a good point. You know, as human beings, we want to be we want to be the solution.So, we offer solutions. We offer advice. We offer judgments. We get defensive forthe people that we love. So then we judge the people they love before we know the whole story. Um any of thedefault autopilot things are probably the things that we need to become conscious of and suspend. And usually toto what you were saying loud a little bit, there’s a couple thoughts. One is one is education. we can actuallysupport somebody without even being in their presence if we’re willing to show that we’re willing to learn to speaktheir language. Um, you know, my my daughters joke with me all the time because like whatever they get intowithin like three weeks time I become an expert at whatever it is. So like they start running track. Maybe they’re doingthat because I know nothing about track and they don’t want to talk to me about it. But within three weeks, I’m like, “All right, that’s a really good miletime.” And, “Hey, that’s a really good 800 time.” And, “Oh, wow. This is what you do for like training and this and that.” They’re like, “Dad, how come youlearned so much about track in like three weeks?” I’m like, “Cuz you’re doing it like I want to be able to speakwith you about it. I want to be able to like support you in it. I want, you know, I want to I’m your fan. I’m a fanof yours and I want to understand you.” Right? So, that’s that’s one. And then the second one goes along with what you’re saying, Brandon. To me, the wordis presence. Um, if you suspend judgment, if yoususpend solutions, if you suspend advice, but you show up with pure humanpresence, that seems to be about the best thing that you can offer somebody as they’rein a in a situation that they’re having to navigate that grief that we’re talking about. But presence is is islove because presence is difficult. Like if they’re in pain, if they’re in deeppain and I’m supposed to show up present with them,I have to manage deep pain. I have to manage deep pain and and and and realize that I can’t fix it and Ican’t make it better and all these things. So it like really requires me caring deeply about them and just beingin that pain with them. That’s love. That’s support,right? And and like you say, our default setting is to not do that. We we do everything we can to not like our ourego defends against that. We don’t want to be in that pain. Um and yet that’s what is needed.We’re getting uh down to time here. LA, is there anything else on your mind or heart around this topic that we’vemissed or that you can think of somebody listening, maybe even asking the question? and I could come up with some myself, but is there anything thatyou’re feeling like we haven’t spoken yet today that we need to?I don’t think so. No, I mean, I just wanted to um I just agree with what y’all were saying here at the end. Um asy’all were speaking, I was getting a little emotional because I was thinking about a friend that did that for me andthat’s what I remember from that time, her presence. um you know, she wouldn’tchime in when I was talking mess about my my partner. She wouldn’t um give meadvice, but just be there with me. And we would cope with humor and TV shows and hanging out. But that’s what Ineeded at the time. And and yeah, she gave me that presence. So, I think that’s the greatest gift that um we cangive people who who are grieving. Absolutely. We uh we just just yesterday had apretty big tragedy hit our little community uh where there was a pretty bad car accident that killed severalhigh school kids that my my kids go to high school with. And umand uh my daughter was just like she was just broken up. Like just just brokenup. And I felt myself going to all those places of like, well, at least this and at least that and we well this and Istarted like, what are you doing, Tyler? Like, what are you doing? And uh I went I went to my daughter andI said, “Hey, Paisley, I I can tell that you’re really struggling. Like, what’s going to be the best thing for you rightnow?” And she said, “Honestly, Dad, I want to go get my friend who also knewsome of these kids that that didn’t make it. I want to pick them up. I want youto sit in the back seat and I want to turn on some music that has a specific mood to it and I want to go for a driveinto the mountains. And I was like,great. I spent two hours in the back of my own truck while my daughter drove thecar listening to depressing music in the mountainswithout saying a word. Um, that’s what she needed.It takes work to be able to suspend all of that and say, “I’m I’m for you. I’m here for you.” And uh how lucky you wereto have a friend like that, LA, in your time. And some of our listeners might might even be thinking of their ownstories and recognizing that they have people just like that. And if you don’t,there’s help for that. That’s what that’s what therapy is for. That’s what that’s what a great group is for, whichby the way, LA is starting one when next week for women’s betrayal. Um but uh yeah,thank you. Thank you for coming on. What it’s a great topic. Um thank you to our listeners who are here and show up everyday and are doing your hard work. It’s it’s amazing to see the miracles that you’re creating in your own livesbecause of your own resilience. So thanks for letting us be a part of that journey. Um anything else, Brandon? No,I just this topic I think we need to address it more often that it’s aboutlike it’s all about grief because grief gets you to a place of growth andacceptance and um I I think it gets you closer to Godwhen you allow yourself to go through this process again and again in life. And um it’s it’s really weird. It’sreally paradoxical to to Tyler. who’s sitting there with Paisley yesterdaylike she knows she’s got a dad who loves her and um she knows that she’s loved inin those type of moments. Um same with you Lara with your friend, right? Like just thinking about her like you’reloved and in a in a weird way through that pain that’s beautiful.Um, so I’m I’m really grateful that we talk about this and it’s important totalk about this ambiguous grief when it comes to betrayal because I think um somany people are are just walking through this alone and feeling it but notfeeling validated in it. And so I’m so glad you brought it to the table today, LA. I really appreciate you.Yeah, thank you guys. Yeah. Um, if this is meaningful to youor if you know somebody who would benefit from it, please share it with them. We want to help as many people aspossible. And until next time, keep on keeping on.