I’ve Been Betrayed, But There’s No Good Help For Me

A Betrayed Husband’s Cry for Help

I’ve been betrayed, but there’s no help for me. Brandon, what’s going on, man?Not much. Just getting ready to uh just hit it hard this year.I know everyone starts the the new year with like all the new you know what’s kind of cool Brandon this year is likemy whole family kind of seemed to be in this mode where we almost went into dormcancy coming into Christmas and thenas a collective energy as a family we kind of all sat down the last couple days and we’re like hey what are whatare some of the changes we want to make or the new commitments or the new growth or and there was like this cool energywhere like everyone was kind of in the same page where we’ve had our long winter’s nap and now It’s we’re ready tokind of like get back to to doing some things that are going to improve our, you know, our lives together. Um.

New Year Reflections, Growth, and Family Commitments

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So, what are some of the things? Um, my one of my daughters said that shewanted to understand certain books of scripture differently than maybe she has yet. So, we’re going toI like it. We’re going to do a study together on a regular basis and probably include, you know, anyone who wants tojoin us, any other siblings or maybe like her boyfriend wanted to join some of them. Um, currently, this isactually, we should do a whole episode on this, but I got I got a challenge issued um by one of the guys that I work with,and he gave me this packet that had top secret written in Finnish on it with achallenge to read a book about the Finnish army fighting the Russians back in like 1939.Um, and then a challenge to actually physically train for an extendedcrosscountry ski while carrying my 22 rifle shooting targets along the way inhonor of in honor of like almost like training like being in the Finnish army. Um, so so this morning I was so random.It was so random. So random. But I woke up this morning. It was pouring rain and I got up and Idid my three- mile hike and then I came home and jumped on the exercise bike and did my squats and did my push-ups and uhI’m at least one day into actually upholding my end of the on of the challenge right now. So,excellent. My daughters were my my daughters were laughing at me, but they’re like, “That’s also kind of cool, Dad.” Youknow, way that’s way cool. I I didn’t expect you to say now you’re a member of the Finnish Army.I but I’m not claiming that at all, but it’s like in kind of in honor of that story. It’s a story of how theybasically held back the they were to it’s it’s basically the Finnish version of the American Revolution where theyheld back a much stronger, you know, foe than right um and how they did that and and kind ofthe the essence of their toughness basically. Yeah, I love it. So that’s something I’m working on andmy daughters are supporting me in that. And well, you’re going to need a little bit of snow to practice uh cross countryskiing. So, I know that’s the one problem in Utah. I just said it was raining all morning and that never happens this time of year.So, probably had like two or three feet of snow this week, but it was all rain. So, I know.Anyway. Well, cool. Sounds like good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s exciting time ofyear to kind of get back into those things. Yeah. Well, should we dive into to thistopic here? Yeah, this is a this is a question that was submitted to you, Brandon, right?

Listener Question: When the Husband Is the Betrayed One

And just before we jump into that, if any of you are listening here and you have a question, go to therapyros.organd you can sign up to become and be a caller on the show, which is even better. Um, or you can just hit ask aquestion. There’s a button there to ask a question. you can click that, type a question. And on days like today, we’llsometimes go to that bank and we’ll pull out a question and and and have that be the topic of the discussion for theepisode. Yeah, we would love to get your questions. We would love to have you onas guests as well. So, okay, Tyler, so I’m just going to read the first part of this and then get your take on it andjust uh pull some things out of it. So it says, “I am a betrayed husband andthere’s a massive problem trying to find help for the opposite dynamics. The general perception is if a husbandcheats, then the wife is the victim. But if a wife cheats, then the husband must have been abusive or something likethat. However, this is far from the truth. My wife was dishonest for almost our 22 years of marriage, manipulative,and gaslighted me of thinking I was not doing enough.” So that’s the first partof it. Um, any thoughts? Yeah, number one, thanks for reaching

Why Men’s Betrayal Trauma Is Rarely Discussed

out. It’s funny, there’s I mean, obviously, just even on our own podcast, there’s a glaring hole inin treatment for this for for husbands who have been betrayed versus wives who’ve been betrayed. Um, I think thatthat hole is closing and I think we’re going to be able to give some help here today. Um, but but it makes sense thathe’s feeling that way. Tyler, we’re part we’ve been part of the issue. And the the the reason I say that is we we speakin in ter and we’ve tried really hard to shift to talk about partners and not notput a gender on things. Um but like our natural tendency is to give examples andtalk about things where the husband is the cheater, the husband is the betrayer, um the wife is the betrayed.And the truth is is that it happens both ways all the time. And that menexperience betrayal trauma. And not many people talk about u men experiencingbetrayal trauma. And the reason why Tyler, the reason why we have been apart of this is because um it’s what’s interesting is if if awoman gets cheated on and there’s betrayal trauma, um they’re more likely to seek help andtherapy. And so most of our clients or clientele have been when a man has beenthe cheater or the betrayer and the woman has been the betrayed. Um and sothat’s the world that we live in. But we’re not unaware that what he’s sayinghere in this question isn’t true. Right. Yeah. Actually I I’ve I’ve wonderedabout this Brandon and maybe you have your own take on this. Um, we we knowthat it’s not even split between men cheating and women cheating, but it’s much higher than the world would thinkin terms of the split. So, um, so there is actually a lot ofmen who get cheated on, but they don’t get talked about as much. And I think here’s my thoughts on it, Brandon. oneis is exactly what you said and what he just said in his question that we haven’t even gotten fully through the question yet, but it’s there’s almostlike a stigma, you know, that’s that’s still there. I think it’s changing and I think it’s

Stigma, Masculinity, and Asking for Help

getting better, but there’s a stigma that if you get cheated on and you’re a man, that is somehow an indictment ofyou and your manliness. And the last thing you’re going to want to do is go somewhere and admit your lack ofmanliness by looking for help from someone. But I don’t fully understand it, Tyler, because I think there’s thatstigma the other way around where if I’m a woman and I get cheated on, um somesometimes it’s easy to just be like my husband’s, you know, a jerk who did thatto me. But but there’s also that belief of like it’s a shameful belief like uhhe he did that because I’m not enough. He I’m not enough. I don’t measure up. He went and sought something else out because And yet those people, a lot ofthose women will still seek help. they’ll still seek treatment. Um, andso, but there’s an added there’s an added stigma. I’m not I’m not like arguing.It’s not it’s not it’s not the it’s not the belief about not being good enough that’s the issue. I think the stigma ismore around the asking for help portion of it. Yeah. I’m weak. You know, like I mean, you think about this. There’s been likein New Zealand there was a big push just recently where they did a whole bunch of advertisements and videos about men andsuicide and all the videos were about all these men who are carrying these burdens in their lives but they’re nottalking to anybody because they don’t talk to anybody and uh and I think thatthat’s they’re trying to break that stigma over there by saying hey join a brotherhood like reach out tosomebody talk to somebody like because all these men are just in their own heads like not reaching out for help. SoI think that’s part of it. Is it the case where like because we run a lot of men’s groups, betrayers, right,or men struggling with addiction? Um are they there because they’re com are mostof them there because they’re compelled to be? Um do you see what I’m saying? Yeah. Um I I would say not. You know,sometimes that’s the case. I just wonder I wonder like why is thisdynamic in place like why because I agree that men struggle toreach out for help and and yet we have a lot of men’s groups but those men’s groups get formed because inrelationship they’re like hey we got to fix something. Um and they’re almost I’mnot saying the the men I work with don’t don’t feel like they’re compelled to be there. In fact, many men that I workwith aren’t. Um, but some are. No, you’re you’re you’re right. You’reright. We just got a comment that came through here that, and this is actually awesome because Brandon and I right now,at least this portion of the episode, we’re speculating. We don’t have these answers. Um,uh, but one came through. It says, “In my youth, the church contributed to the blame cycle. If the man cheated, thenhis wife wasn’t sexual enough. We mostly didn’t talk about the wife cheating.” Yeah, I think there’s something to that.Like, and it’s it’s like I think that’s a cultural thing, too. It’s again changing, but it doesn’t get talkedabout the same way. That’s an interesting comment. Um, if the man cheated, it’s cuz the wifewasn’t sexual enough. So, so that that’s interesting because it’s it’s almost the opposite of what the question was sayingis, you know, blaming the betrayed for the betrayer’s behavior. Um,that’s how that’s how this person who submitted the question was was feeling likeI think it it go it goes both ways. It’s it’s just I guess where I’m where I’m kind of just getting to it goes bothways of like the the blame thing is is stupid. Um, if somebody cheats, theychoose to go cheat. Now, I understand there’s a lot of reasons why dynamics and reasons behindthe reason why, but if if a man cheats or a woman cheats, they cheated,right? I think I think that’s it, Brandon, is is that on in a lot of ways on either side of this, the principles are goingto be similar. Um, even if it’s there’s maybe some nuancesto it being a man versus a woman who’s done the cheating, but but the first one you’re talking about is whoever did thecheating is accountable for the cheating. Right. Right. But I I I’m just and with

Accountability: Who Is Responsible for Cheating?

you, Tyler, I’m just trying to kind of wonder out loud a little bit of like Iwonder I do wonder why the dynamic is sothe man’s that is is it the pornography thing where more men view pornography than women?It’s just it’s just reality. It’s and it’s the way that men and women are built. Um not to say that women don’tstruggle with pornography, too, but more men do. Yeah. Um well and it’s a different kindof consumption generally too between men and women where men are more driven towardssort of the physical visual stuff a bit more and women are moredrawn towards like the literature and um other kind you walk down the beach inHawaii and like every woman has like a court of thorns and roses that they’re reading.Do you know what I mean? Yeah. No. Yeah. But honestly, that’s that is one of the nuance differences about it. And you know, maybe that’s ittoo is that there’s been so much but but what husband is like, “Hey, let’s go to treatment because you’re reading that novel.” And I’m not tryingto minimize pornography use as a as like something that isn’t isn’t painful andhard, but like the reality is is if a woman is fantasizing and lusting anddisconnecting through literature like that, um or through Hallmark movies,um they’re not seeking treatment for it, right? Like no, I I justYeah, I’m just want I’m just like exploring this. I don’t know the answers, Tyler. Um because a lot of ourclients end up in treatment because of the compulsive pornography use. Um and with that compulsive pornographyuse, it leads to all kinds of relational issues that then leads to sure seeking seeking therapy.Um, but it doesn’t mean that that women don’t lust and it doesn’t mean thatwomen don’t disconnect too um in their in their own way. Um, is this like acultural thing? I I don’t know. I don’t know, Tyler. I I’m I’m just I liketrying to figure it out with you while we’re recording. Yeah, me too. We’re We’re basically we’re basically trying to figure thisout as we go. So, it hopefully at least is stirring up some things for people to think about.I mean, Tyler, would you like to run a betrayed men’s group? Oh, I love that. I I would love that.Yeah. Um and and I would love to run a a women’s group where they’re strugglingwith compulsive behaviors and disconnecting and we’re working on that for women.Um but but we’ve never started those groups because we never get enough people toact. Like this guy right here, I would love to have him in a group with other betrayed men and have them feelvalidated and seen and process things and all. I would love to give him whathe wants. Yeah, I think that’s maybe that’s maybe that’s part of the problem, Brandon, isI’ve run into the same thing with my own practice is that I have a case load of whatever between groups and individualsI see maybe a hundred people a week. Um, at any given time, the presentingproblem, I’ve never had enough women who are presenting as, hey, I’ve got anaddiction to pornography or compulsive behavior or I’ve been cheating. I always have like two or three or four on mycase load. And vice versa with the men who are are always coming in and sayinglike, “Hey, I I just got cheated on. I don’t know what to do with all of this.” And so in in terms for a group to beviable, you need, you know, a good group is eight to 14 people is prime for forthat. Right. And I’ve never I’ve never had that that amount of clientele. Maybebecause it’s just been the nature of my practice or, you know, so I think that’s maybe part of the weakness inside of thetreatment part of this too is the best work for this I believe is group workbesides the experiential stuff we do with the retreats and stuff, but the best treatment is group work. And we’venever quite fully had enough of a clientele to start that group. I wouldTyler I would say over my 15 years of doing this I have tried to start awomen’s addiction group probably four times four or five times um it has neverum been it I have never been able to get enough um people to want to participate toactually do that treatment. Um, so it’s like and so there’s that side of thingstoo, I think. Um, sometimes there’s a st there’s definitely a stigma, Tyler, forwomen struggling with addiction or compulsive behaviors who don’t want toum don’t want to like like there’s a lot of shame there and so they don’t want to be seen. Um, and yet there’s so manywomen struggling. Um, so there’s thatside of it too, right? Yeah. 100%. You know, you know what’s been cool? And I think this is kind of where a little bitof where like the healing journey has been going. If you look at even like reclaimyouheart.org,it’s been pretty cool. Some of those conversations that people get on and share, they’re getting feedback fromboth the betrayed and the betrayer of both sexes. Um, when they type in like, “Hey, I’mrunning into this. What do I understand? And you know how powerful it is to have say like a a betrayed man get on andhave somebody who’s like a woman who’s done the betraying say, “Hey, I see youand here’s like D like something to think about.” Or like there’s been some real power there. Or here’s another one,Brandon, that I’ve I’ve noticed in my own practice. I don’t know if you’ve run into this or not, but there’s been a fewoccasions, several actually now, where maybe I’m running a women’s group andfinally after this woman’s been coming for her own betrayal for a while, she finally comes and says, “Hey guys, likeI know this isn’t the place for it, but I need to be real with you and I have myown problems with pornography and this is what I’m doing and this is what I’m working on.” And without fail, everytime something like that has happened inside of one of my groups, it actually adds deeper richness and connection andsupport and understanding and actually that person who is now offering their side of that story to this group becomesa real gift. Um, and they also receive they also receive a lot of support back.Um, yeah. Yeah. And and and one of the ways ways that we kind of developed the healing journey is if you look at the healing journey,most of in fact almost all of the the curriculum for the beginning part of the healing journey

Healing Is About Reclaiming Your Heart, Not Labels

is done by both sides anyway because because the healing processisn’t about having been the betrayed or the betrayer per se. It’s about the reclamation of your life and your heartand your soul from from the trauma and the shame that you’ve been experiencing. Not to say that there’s not anaccountability and consequences for betraying, right? No. And there’s some nuances there forsure. Right. And and and but yet the work eventually becomes the same. It’s it’shealing the the the deeper roots to to the issues. Um whether you’re thebetrayed or the betrayer. Um I’m just thinking Tyler something you just said like how many times has it been a couplecomes in and because he has a porn addiction, he’s masturbating and lookingat porn every so often and I I’ll work with them for like months and then thewife like once I build enough rapport and I got to build rapport, build rapport and I don’t know. I I just knowthat something else is is not you’re like hitting a wall. There’s something like like maybe she’s not setting boundaries the way you think shewas could or whatever. And and then she finally comes in and says, “Hey, by the way, I I have my own problems withpornography.” Yeah. And so it’s it’s like we’ve been so focused here on him and his issue. Umbut now like she needed enough safety and and a lot of times when shediscloses to me um it’s this huge kind of relief and um unburdening of shamebut also this really vulnerable thing. Um and then the dynamics in therelationship are different. The the betrayal is a little bit different even. It’s not just the same um as like a manacting out and just acting out with lust or another person or pornography. Um andthe way his wife responds versus the way the husband responds, it’s oftenimes different. Um I was working with acouple once years ago and he had a pornography problem. Um they were veryreligious. his his pornography problem really wasn’t extreme.Um, but he wanted to fix it. He didn’t want to ever act out. And while we wereworking on that, she was having a full-fledged affair, like full-on affair. And and he he knew about heraffair. Um, and she knew about her affair, but I didn’t. And so like I Ifelt a little like WTF like gas lit almost as a therapist likethat you don’t that doesn’t seem important to bring into the therapy office. Well and and it’s a little it’s curioustoo of like okay we’re talking about like how bad his porn use is. And I’mnot saying that it’s not a problem but like we’re focusing on that as the thing that’s destroying the relationship.And and it comes back to this guy’s question of I think what they were thinking was she was acting out becausehe was breaking the trust with the pornography. So that was his fault. So he needed to stop that so then she couldstop doing what she was doing. Yeah. Um but do you see how messed up all this is? Yeah. It it never works that way. Ah, Imean each individual needs to look at themselves and say, “Okay, how do Ibecome a person who can be trustworthy and create love and intimacy in arelationship?” And if we’re focused just on this one thing here and that’s it,and yet I got these secrets in the background or all this stuff going on and I’m not dealing with that, thenyou’re paying money to a therapist who’s beating their head against a wall trying to help you,right? Yeah. Um, so I Yeah. But but but in thisstory, Tyler, I think you can see some of the some of the issues that go on oflike the shame and the stigma and the how hard it is to to open up. Um,yeah. I I wish this were different and I’m glad we’re talking about it rightnow, Tyler. Um, I don’t know if we have the answers to it. Yeah, I I would saylike there’s there’s a few things that I think we try to do to help with those answers, but but also admittedlythere is a gaping hole when it comes to this arena in both of the ways you just described that that if somebody couldcrack that code, they could do a lot a lot of good in the world and and provide a lot of help there. Um, I do think thatthere’s some things that some help that does come and I for the sake of time I I’d love for you to finish the thequestion and let’s at least speak to his question too. Yes. Try to provide some help there.Um, my discovery day was November.

What Help Actually Exists for Betrayed Men Today

Uh, after six months of trick-or-treated to form. I still find it hard to gethelp videos and materials to help a husband who cares about his kids navigate this painful and isolatingexperience. Do you have sources to share or would you consider helping males through infidelity and uh mentallyabusive relationships? So that’s that’s the finish of his question. Yeah. Okay.Yeah. Yeah. And we’ve kind of talked about it like I I hate to say that we don’t have greatresources, right? Yeah. I’m not sure there are a ton of them out there, but I I don’t think it’shopeless either, you know. Um, not at all. And and I would say that eventhough we’ve never had like a full amount for a full group to do that work, you and I, Brandon, have both hadcouples in in reverse order to what we typically talk abouta ton. I’ll tell you this, Tyler. This guy um would fit right in and and I knowhe might cringe at this if he hears this, but he would fit right in into my men’s group that I run on Thursdaysbecause we’re far into the healing journey. Um our focus is not on them assex addicts. We’re doing trauma work. They’re strengthening their masculinity.Um they’re learning healthy boundaries. They’re trusting themselves more.They’re connecting to God more. Like there’s there’s this just awesome stuff going on that this guy who didn’t betrayhis wife would benefit from and benefit to the point where he would know how tonavigate his relationship with his wife better because he’s doing that work. Coming back to what you were saying earlier.Yeah. Well, I and I think actually, Brandon, I would take it a step further that in that group that you run or inany of the men’s groups that I run too, this is I I as I’m thinking about it right now,if he were to join a men’s group, most of the men in there would be on the side of having done the betraying.And in every one of my men’s groups, there’s at least one, if not multiplemen who have also been cheated on, been betrayed. Yes. And so, um, and so,but the work would still be there. So, there would still be support, there’d still be perspective, there’d still beunderstanding, there’d still be empathy. I I do think that that getting into someother kinds of support and help, whether that’s like a men’s like a masculinity group would still scratch part of thatitch or like even the betrayal side of things. you would actually learn a tonand you would it would accelerate your process a ton to be in a men’s group like that. And then to me the biggestfactor is the work that you do in something like the healing journey or the trauma work. So yes, um the questionwas would you consider working with a betrayed spouse? I work with betrayed spouses all the time, men and women. Wedo all the trauma types of treatments, you know, EMDR, ART, IFS.um those are going to be effective for you no matter what. The the hard part like him working withone of us individually I think would be awesome. The hard part is finding him a specific group where he is just tryingto focus on his betrayal trauma. Um I I we don’t have that but we but comingback to what you were saying Tyler we have resources like crazy that would be beneficial and helpful. Um, somethingyou said earlier I wanna I want to highlight because I think it is unique and I I think it’s also triggering andmaybe maybe hard to understand how it works, but over at reclaimyouheart.org,it’s been awesome to watch betrayers and the betrayed actually help each otherand give advice and give like another perspective in a real safe environment.Um and and I think like just some community like that can help um whewhether you’re a man or a woman and um you can see some of the underlying principles of recovery. You can talkabout your pain. You can get some validation. So, we might not have a specific group for you, but we have acommunity that could help you um along with the deep trauma work that would be helpful for you and and along with someindividual work as well. So, that there there are things that that are out there for you.Yeah. And I I would say is it might just need to be pieced together a little differently than traditionallyotherwise. And I would again I say this on almost every episode, but I come back to the principles of I need support. Ineed structure. I need education. I need grounding. And then I need once I’ve got those things in place and then I need togo into like my own healing process, which is the shame and the trauma work. And I can piece that together in I meanBrandon and I have certain methods that we use and certain programs that we do. But principally speaking, if you piecetogether those principles, that’s going to lead you to a path of healing. Um,and there’s lots of ways to do that. There’s a hundred different ways to piece that together. Tyler, when I think about likewhen I think about emotional affairs as well as full-fledged affairs,um, and I think about like all of the men in my life, my friends and just thehonestly I would say maybe 20% of them have experienced some form of ofbetrayal. Now, now you think 20% that’s not that much. That’s a lot. like of themen in my life, if that’s across the board, 20% of men get betrayed in some way, there’s millions of men out therewho have been betrayed. Um, there’s millions of men out there uh sufferingin silence and trying to battle through those deep, dark feelings of lonelinessand grief and pain and complex betrayal, trauma um all alone. And it’s that’s toobad. I I let’s crack this code, Tyler. Let’s talk more about this. I I justdon’t know exactly where to start with it other than offer what we have and to piece ittogether. And um I’m just glad this topic was brought up. So,yeah, man. Um I’ll just kind of corroborate what you just said, Brandon. I I just looked up the statistics forinfidelity. 20 to 25% of married couples experience cheating. And then it saidhere’s another one that says 34% of men and 46% of women report a spouse orpartner cheating on them. Although this might underount known infidelities,but even still that number’s pretty high on both sides. And it says it’s climbing.As of right now, the numbers are climbing for women to be cheating.For women to be cheating. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I just want to say to him like,thank you for reaching out. Thank you for asking this question. Um, and uh,thank you for your vulnerability. I love a man who’s willing to to seek help andand try to get support. And so we we need more of him, right?Yeah. And I would just say to you, you know, we may not have the mainstreamedproduct in place, and very few places do, I think, right now, but there ishope here. I’ve seen it. I’ve experienced it with with other men who have been in similar situations. Thereis a way through this. There’s a way to healing, self-confidence, stepping back into your full masculinity. Um whetheryou stay with your relationship or not, um there’s there’s hope here. Yeah. So,all right you guys. Well, thank you for listening and uh if you do have questions, where do they go, Tyler?Go to therapyros.org and submit a question or sign up to become a caller on the show.Yeah, you don’t have to be a caller to to get your questions answered. So, we love your questions. We we would lovefor you to be a caller, too. Um but uh until next time, keep on keeping on.