How do I show EMPATHY for my spouse without getting Defensive?

Intro

how do I show empathy for my spouse without getting defensivewhat’s up Tyler what’s going on Brandon how you doing man good uh guess what Ihad for breakfast i don’t know biscuits and gravy or something no just knowing me what do youthink i had eggs you had eggs and you had like 10 of them i got to get myprotein in and I’m so I wouldn’t be surprised if half of them were raw tyler loves to drive home how much Ilove eggs he like loves to talk about it when we were kids like when we were kids I think I swear I saw you like drink raweggs for breakfast sometimes i Yeah Rocky taught me that rockyRocky taught me that I was getting ripped and I loved eggs and it was like “Hey I used to microwave them fry themscramble them boil them you name it straight eggsand the incredible edible egg.” Man it’s funny how things come full circle too because for a time those were really

Unseen Belief Systems

really bad for you and then it’s kind of come all the way around that it’s like one of the best things you can eat foryourself and I’m sure like three years from now it’ll be horrible and cause cancer or something so I mean you lookat the egg and it’s like God just made that to be to be ingested it’s just likehere you go like boom you know fat and protein like bam sooh man well I’m glad I’m glad you got got that so um well Tyler should we divein yeah man let’s let’s jump in we got a guest on today we’re excited to talk toum John glad you had the courage to come on the show we’re happy to help you uh welcome yeah thanks guys great to behere yeah tell us tell us a little bit about you and your situation and ask your question we’ll jump into it allright right on uh well first of all thank you for this time together i think your show is amazing and so relatableand inspiring so thank you again oh thanks John uh so I’ve been uh with my wife uh about10 years and um we’ve had uh about half of those times dealing with my activeaddiction with betrayal deception gaslighting um multiple women uh withporn um I had a lot of shame as well that kind of driving these these uhbehaviors um after a number of attempts to uh be sober I finally with her kindof last ditch effort like it’s we go forward or we don’t uh you need to get into a program uh got into a 12stepprogram last year uh and uh it was amazing it was the actually the SLAA or sex love um addicts addicts anonymousand um uh excellent uh program i went through the program off course thissummer um went to give the amends to her at the end of the summer step nine and Ijust dove into it fully and it was an amazing program uh however at the timebecause of my betrayal act of betrayal over the years and even earlier that year in 2024 last year the um the angershe had and resentment was so high she could not bring me back into life even though I was working on my recoveryworking on myself and um addressing my issues uh to get sober and get the tools

Hero vs. Victim Role

she was uh uh she was not in that state to bring me in she was just too angry and it didn’t so she she wanted to moveon basically uh in uh first week of August she told me so it was really depress very depressive for me trying touh move forward um I was unfortunately very codependent with her for many many years and that was a big problem as wellum that codependency I didn’t know I was codependent till years into it um and she was a little bit codependent as welljust putting that out there but the uh all the all the time when I’m relating to all the pain and trauma and damage Iinflicted on her over the years um me to be able to sit in with her pain and bethere for her and show that empathy was uh so hard to do i felt cuz my shame wasthere huge shame was there and I could not bring it forward and it was a challenge um and later when I got gotmore tools more education through great training and podcast and everything and I started to provide some drip marketingof empathy if you will i could not um feel comfortable so much with it cuz itfelt like I was reading a script it felt like it was contrived it felt like it wasn’t coming out like from the hearteven though I I felt it it did feel like I was just reading a script that she was expecting it’s like John why don’t youuh just tell me you feel my pain you know and and so I repeat it i feel your pain and it feels terrible just repeat

Energy in Relationships

it back to her um as opposed to coming from me as an original feeling and thought if you will and so that that wasreally hard for me and and just being able obviously the bigger picture to deal with the challenge of accepting allthe damage and pain I’ve done to the woman I’ve I love and love dearly wasterrible so sorry no this is really good John um it I meanit really sounds like you want to like hold space for her give her empathyum but you just you just don’t know how well and it sounds like you’re It soundslike in the things that you’re being taught when you practice them it feels fake even though your heart wants it tofeel real yes yes john yes john you’ve done the 12 steps have you done anyother therapy or anything like that yes I had a seat therapy therapist um youknow we actually went through a disclosure in 2023 um uh in in May of 2023 um unfortunatelyI was not uh fully sober i was not you know I was not in full recovery so theuh even the disclosure was not best outcome for her she there were some missing items and uh it was not for herit was not a good disclosure unfortunately but um went through that um so we’ve been through a lot you knowas couples counseling we went through that as well so um a lot of great podcast leveraging you obviously therapybrothers was amazing um and other sources but mainly it’s been it’s been that connectivity with um the therapistdirection and me following the 12step last year well this year so just to bring you more current this year uh sowe we broke up and then uh in in the first part this year she reached out tome and she shared with me that her pain has her her anger excuse me has subsidedsome and she just she missed me and she missed our our life together and so andso we weren’t living together and um we started seeing each other um I actuallyhad um unfortunately some media on my phone that I had in there um and it was

Repeating Patterns

show it showed that I was not in sobriety after I saw her again and wehad to have another kind of you know uh come to reality to the um that I need tofocus on my therapy and my back into the program and not get complacent that ifshe’s back in my life not get complacent right so that happened so now since uh that January February time frame it’sbeen amazing but then when here I am being sober with uh uh you know I was 73days completely sober uh from everything which included uh the porn and masturbation uh which is the the lastpiece really even though I’ve added empathy to my bottom lines now the uhreality is when there’s a trigger an accusation that maybe I’ve done something that triggers her from a pastbehavior right uh she she sees something on my phone like a for example on my onmy YouTube app she sees a dating app ad dating ad on my YouTube as I scroll tofind a video and she’s thinking that I’m you know her trigger is because my past behaviors oh great he’s it’s coming upon his feed in YouTube because he’s he’s used a dating app recently and I’m like no so I became defensive I becameminimizing and I couldn’t deal with uh I couldn’t bring the empathy and lean into her even though I done nothing wrong iwas very defensive just like the behaviors of the past just as if when I was an act of addiction I my sameresponse but this time even though um I’ve not done anything I it came acrossfrom her it hit her like a red flag huge and then there it goes again so anotherlayer of that empath that lack of empathy even in sobriety to lean in whenit has to do with the behaviors of my past still piling up for her today does that make sense

Deep Emotional Wounds

yeah oh yeah makes a ton of sense to me yeah the question I have for you Johnthis might be sound dumb but what’s the problemum I feel the problem yeah I What’s the actual problem yeah thanks for askingthat I need to unpeel that question to the core hereum unpack it as they say the problem um isI have a uh right now I still have a concern that I’m going to hurt her andum cause trauma and when I like when Ilean when I I think when I feel I lean I want to lean in and and do that it’s it’s me just bringing back the past tokeep that that moment of of triggering of the past alive by keep talking aboutAnd I think that’s part of my problem i’m not sure it’s 100% my problem i know it’s part of my problem is to keep it atopic even though it’s might be great and healing for her i think in my mind like why are we talking about whathappened in the past things are great now and I I don’t want to keep her inthis mode of trauma and pain even though I understand from my education of uh thelast year or so is that her talking about it is part of her healing and herand me with her leaning in is part of her healing me getting it is part of herhealing and I need to embrace that my problem is I’m not I’ I’ve not been ableto embrace let’s go into this pain together why I want to sit next I don’t

Mom’s Influence

know I don’t know why I just can’t naturally sit in there and just be comfortable with the uncomfortablei could do it when she’s like talking about her sorry talking about her bad day at work or some other things i candefinitely be empathetic and sit with her with her pain and be in there when it comes to just bringing up the past ofall the stuff I’ve done to her and the trauma I have I s have have such a hard time sitting there with it because it’sso terrible and and and just disgusting john what if I were to say to you themain reason why you struggle to empathize with her pain is the same mainreason why you’ve acted out with sex and pornit’s it’s the same problem yeah do you know that what does thatmean to you what it is yeah i It’s a coping mechanism umand avoidance yeah your your defensiveness is a coping mechanism and your numbing out with lust is a copingmechanism right so So what’s the actual problem but what are you pursuing in bothi’m pursuing to help her well I’m uh pursuing from a perspective of taking

Losing Dad

the wrong action like that yeah when you defend or when or when you act out with sex what are you pursuingi’m pursuing um relief from the stress of the moment okay but but the think ofthe commonalities between these two things there’s there’s there’s a commonality here you see it one it hasto do with women and and it has to do with you seekingsomething from women right validation it has to do with you being at thisuniverse yeah i’m like I my value validation soyou So we’re getting there we’re not We’re not there yet you’re seeking validation from them which shows us whatum shame maybe a little shame still what does that shame tell youuh my self-worth isn’t where it needs to be okay yeah so something is is telling you thatit’s really telling you that you’re not lovable that you’re not that that you’re notokay and so with the 12 steps with the work that you’ve done with the disclosure you’ve done have you donerecovery work yes you have um however have you healed the actualissue that’s that’s the question right do you see what I’m saying yeah i thinkthat’s where that’s where I’m at right now that’s the journey I’m in right now i need to answer that question and solvefor that if you will yeah i think it’s kind of telling what yousaid there John that in some ways you would almost welcome your wife having aterrible day at her job or with a friend and she comes home and she leans into your shoulder and it’s like man my

Connecting the Dots

friend did this or my boss said that and you could just hold that for her and show up and be the support for her bethe rock for her just not even have to fix it just listen to her but the minute it turns into she comes home and saysthe very same things about you you find yourself kind of going away from the empathy andstraight into the defensiveness nail hit is hit on the head yes yeah i Irelate to that 100% i remember coming home some days and my wife would be ticked off at something that happened inthe neighborhood or whatever and I’d be like “Oh good i can step in and be the man for her and like D the minute andthen all of a sudden like five minutes later something would happen in that discussion and now the target would be pointed square at me and I’d be likefolding like a cheap tent you know just like um I’m a victim i’m trying to disappear i get defensive to back heroff and then I’d walk away and go like what just shifted and the the real issue was that thatkind of like you know you’ve heard the term before a thousand times but addiction is about trying to replace thegod-sized hole in your heart and there’s something about seeing the person that I care the most about being disgusted withme specifically i it you said “I don’t know why I can’t do this.” Like I’m like “Well nobodywants to be sit there and and feel like what’s being said to them is you suckyou ruined my life i’m the most important thing to you and and now Ineed you to acknowledge that you suck exactly that’s not what she’s actuallysaying but that’s how we interpret it because of what Brandon’s talking about 100%right 100% john I’m not done yet soum why why do you need validationum well I would say this and going back a little bit in the origin story of us when I first started dating we first

Beyond 12-Step Work

started dating I found her to be this unicorni put her on a pedestal and right away I I even shared with her I would ask her”Why are you why are you being with me why are you with me i mean you are amazing why are you with me?” And I I was just you know I’d call out my faultsor my you know my imperfections right right and um she was like “What Johnjohn hang on stop right there you know I noticed something right there.” Yeah you notice what you just saidlike already at the beginning of this relationship you’re coming to her and saying “I like I can’t believe you wantme.” Yes that you love me you’re you’re showing you’re like versus like and thismight sound a little like cocky or arrogant but it’s of like of course awoman like this would want to be in a relationship with me right like you you weren’t there rightyou were more on that side of like why would you be with me i’ve tricked her into this somehow like what the heckyeah yeah i I she was she was uh the most mature and amazing um woman I’veever been with ever and it was just such a shock to my system and it made me doubt who I was yesvalue if you will i I would say you already ha have this like underlyingdoubt about who you are right um which which leads to back to my questionof why do you need validation um where does that come from john in the firstplace when you’re showing up meeting her for the first time or when she’s showing up in her pain or you’re seeking itthrough your sex addiction why do you have that doubt that you’reokay that you’re worthy of love and there’s the question mhmi um I I know from uh my my backstory alsoincludes um a very u successful mother that I look up to and she everything shedid was amazing and she changed careers and was amazing and every everything and it kind of set the tone and everything

Power of Surrender

was based on on providing you know uh a goal goal based to her like you know mymy success is goal based And so I aligned to that I think and umand then my previous relationships I was more of if you will I was more of theunicorn in the relationship i was more the the one the provider the great person the great man the great husbandor great whatever uh boyfriend uh and here I am uh tables have turned in mymind that I did I did it it’s like it was internal she did nothing uh you know mymy wife my wife uh did nothing uh to make me feel that way um just be and butjust where I came from I came I came with that baggage I’ll just put that wayyeah yeah i think and I think just acknowledging that that there’s a beliefsystem here that is it even just what you said you’restarting to recognize where and how that belief system maybe started to form when it started to form you didn’t know thatit just felt automatic it just felt it just was the life you started to liveright and now you’ve gone through relationships where you were the hero and now you’re the one who has to be on the bottom and when you’re on the bottomyou got to fill the void so part of where I think Brandon’s going and Brandon you can correct me is as youcome to understand that this belief system fuels a certain kind of energywith which you approach relationships in the world and that energyunless it’s become very conscious of the the energy and the beliefs that arethere and then the individual work that goes along with deciding whether or not you want to subscribe to that energy andthose beliefs you’re going to likely continue to recreate the same kinds of experiences that have gotten you in

What God Says About You

trouble in the first place you’ll continue to play it out um againand again until you turn and face the the the darkest scariest parts and youryour protective parts have been working their butts off and your exile is likeis like four layers deep to to even take a look at it because your protectors have been so good um so so like it’sinteresting what you just said about your mom um she was a high achiever goaloriented so it was either yay John met his goal he’s the man he’s the he’sincredible before John failed um I wonder a couple of things i wonder youknow what type of emotional connection did you have with your mom and then also what where was dad like what what typeof relationship was there with dad yeah my connection with my mom is uhvery close very loving um uh she she basically raised me as a single motherfor the most part um I lost my father when I was a young kid um a car accidentum so how old were you i was uh I believe I was 11

You Can’t Fake Empathy

11 years old yeah yeah so I knew that’s a tough time to lose dad were you Was dad good wereyou close with dad before he died you know they were separated at the time um all my only my only memory was positivehonestly was positive just this this you know my my dad my father i was you knowum and it was it was tough it was really it was challenging but I it seems like I never really processed that honestly sothere’s there’s had you know abandonment probably issues coming later in life you know manifesting in other ways but uh toyour um John have you really connected those dots thoughi did in in in 12step i did i did and um I I I saw a lot of my origin story ifyou will in my inventory in 12step and uh it was very revealing yes um yeahthat I would say there’s always more work to do i can definitely lean into that i mean um more inventory we’retalking about the fruit of you being unable to empathize with your wife in in triggering moments right that’s that’sthe fruit of all this yes then then here we are talking about the trauma that you had as a child rightand so the like the the thing about it is like doing a disclosure or evenworking the 12 steps um these are all good things to help you manage and get

When Shame Takes Over

out of the behaviors that you’ve had in your life but it’ll come back to what Tyler just said is these patterns willrepeat themsel unless you actually that this trauma that you’ve been through Johnit’s there to either define you and create the outcomes in your life or it’sthere to bless you and strengthen you the only way that it blesses you and strengthens you is if you actuallygo there and process and and feel it and understand um why uh does that makesense to you it does it does it’s it’s the action to how to do that is where Iguess I have the question i I know where we’re pushing on you Johnis not what you came in and asked and no this is good maybe maybe we can get there in just a minute with some actionsbut but I think where we’re going you know you’re it sounds like the 12 steps have really really resonated with youyes and I hear you coming on the show and saying “Okay this is resonated i feel like I’m starting to find new lifei see hope i’m starting to make traction with my recovery i’m staying sober now i kind of like where I’m going.” And then

Build Emotional Strength

I step into this relationship with my wife and that’s where I kind of still struggle and fold because I end up goingback into this place of even though I thought I was shame resilient I still get defensive trying to protect myselffrom being judged rejected um when you look at the 12 steps they’rekind of broken up and your question is what do I do and we can do some what do I do in just a second i think whereBrandon’s really going is actually what are the first three steps really aboutuh owning up to that it I’m powerless right um I’ve got I’ve got a anaddiction a disease as they say um a challenge that I need to accept um I ahigher power i accept a a more a community of solutionsum and lean into it and and work them i mean essentially it’s about umaccountability ownership and moving forward with um you know establishedtools that will work you know essentially yeah okay so so the firstthree steps it’s interesting that you’re you’re doing a lot of step work in the like later steps the four through 10area which is a lot of doing a ton of doing the first three steps are actuallyabout it’s a weird dialectic of taking accountability while surrendering

Love Yourself First

surrendering yes it’s it’s all about surrender and step three is to submitmyself to the care of my higher poweri don’t know what your higher power is John but I would suspect that the wrestle that you’re having right now isrelated to step three work as much as it is the doing work of the empathy you have you have the recipe of what I’mhearing you say is this that must be really hard i’m here for you you can say that to your wife all you want but youcan’t give your heart to her because when she’s criticizing youyou don’t know what your higher power says about you like what does your higher poweractually say about who John is right because if Jon’s in connection with that now Jon is stepping inoffering his identity and his strength to his partner who’s upset with himrather than needing to extract it from her right does that make sense it doesyes that that exactly what Tyler’s saying likeyou cannot fake empathy you can’t you can’t contrive it it doesn’t i don’twant to it can’t it like you can’t do be have empathy like you can’t and that’sthe struggle it’s like I I hear your desire to be empathetic that’s awesome

Identity vs. Approval

but the if you don’t go heal these deepest wounds and reprocess them and desensitize them if you desensitizethose wounds your wife comes with a big trigger and you you can roll with it because you’ve dealt with those woundsbut if you don’t deal with those wounds you can I can give you reflective listening skills for days and you cantry to do it all the right ways and she’ll fill it and you’ll know that that’s not empathyyou see Do you see what I’m I’m saying John i do so your deepest work your deepest trauma work is actually theanswer to be able to show up in empathy with her because what what she needs toknow as a woman and as your wife is that especially healing from betrayal is thathe’s safe that you’ll keep your structure under the pressure he’s got integand and what you’re showing her through your weakness of not being able to holdstrong in those hard times is that you’re weak right right and and but butyou’re coming on here saying “I don’t want to be that.” Like I I really want to be there for her like I really do you’re right i hear it

Hope Through Healing

yes and I promise you John you have it in you to step up and be that strong manbut that the answer is not Tyler and I giving you all these things so that you can go try it the answer is for you tohave the courage enough to turn and face th that deepest pain um and when you dothat that that’ll desensitize it now Tyler and I do have answers for you whenit comes to what do you do and how do you do that um are you ready for it i’mready i hope you have a pen and paper because we got stuff we got stuff and there’s ways to getdown to it and actually sit with it and be with it and connect to a higher powerwith it and process it and surrender it umyou know our rising sun retreat like that whole retreat is a process of thatlike that the whole experience that we that we put men through is an invitationto actually gain a new perspective and a new paradigm about what God has beendoing with them and why yeah um but but Tyler do we at Rising Sun do we get them

Tools That Help

all together and sit down in a in a room and like talk about their problems all day uh no that’s not what we do no Iwould say it’s I would call it an immersive first three-step process um that uh that’s that’s really moreabout experiencing things than it is thinking your way through things and andthat’s kind of how we designed not only the rising sun retreat but that’s what we designed the reclaim your heart uhplatform for too is to have those experiences heart experienceswith the deeper parts of not only just your trauma but your identityyeah so so those are those are two things that I think Brandon and I are big fans of because we created them umthere’s also the deeper work that you do your step work you’re doing good good job therethe other therapy kind of work you’ve probably done some with is I I know Brandon’s already referencing IFS andmaybe even some EMDR art type work um that’s going to be it sounds weirdbecause that’s not empathy work and yet that’s laying the foundations right I get for empathy so shame resiliency isthe precursor to empathy it has to be and then when I then when I have thatit’s like we’re asking you’re asking two questions it’s like okay once I get into my shame resilient part I bet you Johnlike there’s probably moments even with your wife where you’re you happen to just catch yourself on a good day where

Shame Before Empathy

you’re feeling confident you’re more grounded to who you are and she hits you with something and you just you handle it really well some days I bet that’strue that’s true yeah you’re you’re already exercising that muscle right uhand then there’s other days when maybe you had a rough day at work or you gotyou know caught up in traffic and used all your willpower just not swearing at the guy next to you and then your wife hits you with something and and and thenyou hit your shame and then we call it needing to defend your supposed honor asif there’s any of that left right you know it’s like um it’s like okay so thenI didn’t show up in empathy because my shame resiliency broke down yeah so there’s the deeper layer of the shameresiliency and then there’s the added layer which is the easier part of learning the techniques of empathy rightright and we can teach you those techniques um but the deeper part is howam I who am I when I show up yeah i need a stronger frame in my tent so it doesn’t fold on me yeah there you go ilike that we can give you the canvas for the tent but like Yeah if you don’t have the goodframe you know so um it is that deeper work that needs tohappen John okay so how do you feel about that when we Tyler and I talked to you about that you know I I I honestly I

Final Thoughts

was thinking it was going to be um something like this as a outcome is uhthere’s more work to be done that’s not the same what I’ve been doing something else something new deeper um I didn’t Iwasn’t coming in thinking I’d have to go back to my uh my origin story for my backstory but yes I can see thatconnectivity uh and and the shame resilience oh yes absolutely 100% so umyeah John let’s let I just want to switch roles for just a second you’re you’re the therapist here for a minuteokay and I’ll just make up a scenario so let’s say that I had a really a motherthat I was really codependent with i was always trying to please her i was always you know and she would give me you knowgood rewards if I pleased her and whatever so then fast forward 25 yearsI’m married to my wife and my wife doesn’t feel like I like I’m that honestwith her because I’m always trying to please her i’m always trying to be nice i’m always trying to And so I come intoyou for therapy and I say “Hey help me to actually like get my wife to likeme.” like h help me to get her to see that I’m a good guy like I she justdoesn’t seem to like want to be close to me and like me even though like so so give me some tools to connect with herto be uh you know to get her to like me what would you say to me well I wouldsay first that I think you need to love yourself first u before you love someone else yeah andand to do that you need to recognize that you do have a lot to offer and youare solid you are a a individual of strength you’re independent and you canbe interdependent with her if you stand in your strengththat’s a good answer i if if you were Oh go ahead Tyler i just want to know before you go Brandon what’s the emotionthat’s coming up inside of you John right now what is that that just welled up inside of youhope hope hope about whatmaking a change what about acceptance of the truththat’s already there John yes are aren’t you already that guyaren’t you made up of that stuff i am yeah sounds like what you just saidlike you you didn’t say it back to me you just said that to yourselfindeed right um there is there is so much hope um but the focus if you keepthe focus on I want to be good enough for her then you’re actually feeding thebeast still yes right yes but if we shift the focus to I want to know thatI’m good enough regardless of her and I want to know that I’m loved and I want to know that who I really am then you’llbe able to really show up for her right you know it’s kind of a catch 22 umbut that that’s the right order like that that’s the right order to do things in so I would say keep going with your12step you got good recovery capital going on you can still use these thingsto support you as you actually go do that deeper workJohn right yeah i’m picking up what you’re dropping john could I uh I think where Brandon’sgoing is the is the more important work but could I just share a few thoughts about things that have been helpful tome when you’re in the day-to-day trenches with your wife with this work please um there’s a couple of thingskind of just tools that I use for myself other people can kind of develop them the way they want to but my goal is towant to actually show up with real empathy when my wife is hurting and in order for that to be the case I’ve foundthat I can’t get stuck in myself and my shame or else I can’t be there for herso um have you ever um played like the old computer games like Street Fighter youknow you’d fight the guy yeahall right man yeah so you know you know what I’m talking about then and down at the bottom it shows like your bars oflife and like who’s going to get knocked out first yep i kind of this is a this is a tool I’ve used before just to tryto help myself hang in there is I try to gauge where my bars of life are beforeit’s going to be too personal oh yeah and so and what I do is I actually create an avatar of myself out in frontof my old self my wife now comes to me and she’s like “Tyler like I can’tbelieve this or this or this or man I’m really hurting today i remember this thing.” Or “Hey from our past do you remember doing this kind of thing in thepast?” And all of a sudden I’m like just like “Oh.” And I feel it and I feel my shame hit right in my chest i’ll take iti’ll bundle up in a ball and I’ll put it out in front of me and I’ll say “OkayI’m going to get to that in a second but right now I’m going to attend to her right this is going to be about her.”And then I feel my bars of energy sort of kind of going my shame resiliency starting to fade and before I hit emptyI’m practicing the empathy babe tell me more i want to understand that it soundslike that’s a really rough place to be i imagine you must be feeling XYZ and when I get down to about 20% of lifeleft that’s when I say something like,”I want to give you the best possibleresponse and I’m not in the spot to be able to do that right now so I’m going to go take a break.” And then duringthat break is the shame resiliency work i’m going to get grounded i’m going to do some exercise get the blood movingi’m going to make a phone call i’m going to get back in touch with the truth of who I am and then I’m going to come back with more full bars and say “Hey wedidn’t finish the conversation do you need anything else i’m here right sothen I’m I’m offering I’m practicing the empathy until my I’m at my breakdown point and then I’m going and refillingthe tank so that I can show up again and I’m going to re rinse and repeat that over and over again i got that yeah andwhat that does is it means I’m showing up for her in the best ways I can as I can i’m also then exercising theprinciples of shame resiliency so I’m actually taking care of myself which means I’m an equal partner m it’s not aoneup one down situation anymore and I want to show up as my best for herbecause that’s how I want to be in my relationship with her right so I almost imagine that third character beingbetween me and her and that allows me to then be an observer of those feelingsand then kind of show up the way I want to so I don’t know if that makes sense or not no it does that’s great yeah Ican totally visualize that tyler are you usually like Blanca or Dalsome or Kyle iI I think you’re Zanief i I You’re Zanief i I You know what what’s funny isI never related to Zan Gef but he was one of the tougher guys he was huge i always related to like which was whatwas the guy that was just like the normal dude ken yeah like the blondhaired dude i would always be thatguy that’s all I would do is that that dude and I always lost anyway so[Music] Yeah that he does that really good he’splayed a lot of Street Fighter yeah my day you know you know maybe to just kind of like bring this back but or simplifyit like I actually really do believe in that of in that moment when she’s triggered and it triggers you and youyou if you can stop and catch it and you can like just ground and just just likelike get your power like realize like okay like I’m strong i can do this andto Tyler’s point like if you have to think of a character or think of something that that will help you feelwho you actually are in that moment it can be really beneficial and really helpful and it takes you out of makingit so personal because now you’re observing you’re you’re aware of what’shappening versus being right in the thick of it yeah how so how I’m hearing this is I really need to in the momentacknowledge that I’m going to be triggered now or I’m being triggered now myself and I need to take a moment toassess and while I’m taking that moment says I’m also being there for her i need to make sure that I’m taking care ofmyself as I’m there for her i can’t do one or the other i need to do both ineed to be strong for her and be there for her it’s about her yes that’s rightand when I’m out of that energy because I my shame resiliency is starting to break down I’m going to go get refilledbefore it breaks down and I do all the things that show my weakness again right right where I get defensive or disappearor whatever else right i want to give you another hack here that that that helps in these moments and it’s oppositeof what of what you think so in the in the moment that that you start to getdefensive because of her pain say out loud that you’re getting defensive because of her painokay so acknowledge it like oh hey like not as a weapon no yeah yeah not you’renot throwing it back at her you’re acknowledging it to you and her like oh I’m just noticing that I’m wanting toget defensive right now and not hold your pain very well um just that do youknow what that acknowledgement does well by by kind of publicly announcingit it it shines a light on it and it weakens it right exactly it takes itfrom your limbic response for survival into your frontal lobe the rational partof your brain so that you’re able to choose how you respond to that trigger so when you when you acknowledge it outloud and also what it does is for her it helps her realize oh like he’s trying umhe’s being honest with me right now and now you’re up here in the in this part of your brain that has some power overyour your behaviors versus just responding um with limbic response yeah yeah my myanalogy I’m kind of visualizing like it’s like you’re you’re in a in a battlefield and you you you you sensesomething’s wrong and you you throw up a flare and then you see all these troops coming at you oh geez that flare justlit everything up i can see all them coming at me and that’s my and that’s my shame coming at me that’s mydefensiveness coming at me yeah interesting i like it o yeah well John thank you forcoming on the show today hopefully this will be helpful for you to revisiting again thank you so much both of yougreat love to catch up with you in the future you’re welcome to come back on John to see how things go and if youneed any if you need any resources in terms of therapy or retreats ordifferent things to do um we have plenty of that so we’d love to see you inReclaim Your Heart we’d love to see you at Rising Sun as well excellent excellent thank you so much okay Johnhave a great day thank you gentlemen have a good day see you thank you to our listeners for being here hopefully thishits a nerve for some of you and might be helpful as well and until next time keep on keeping on