How do I TRUST my recovery enough to face and OVERCOME my deepest Fears and avoid Repeating History

How do I trust my recovery enough to face and overcome my deepest fears and avoid repeating history?What’s up, Tyler? Brandon, what’s going on, man? Not much. Uh,how is it? Uh, you’re uh how many months away from being a grandpa now?Can I call you Gramps? You can call me whatever you want, Brownie. You’re going to be a grandpa, dude.You’re what? Holy crap. Grandpa. Grandpa Tyler.And be careful what you’re saying because you’re only 18 months behind me in age, man. Oh, yeah. I know, but my kids areyounger than yours. So, I’m I’m way younger than you. I know at heart you are.You are going quick, man. Man, what happened? I I know. It’s the weirdest thing. Like, who becomes a grandparent in their 40s? Like,yeah, I see you. I guess I guess a lot of people do, but you just don’t think about it until you’re like staring that abyss over the edge and going like,”Wow.” Like, what is it like almost what are we at? September. So, two months. We’re twomonths out from uh the due date right now. Two months really,she’s that far along. Two months. She’s gonna Yeah. Basically, like what do we have? We have the rising sun right at the end of Septemberand then Yeah. Like just right before Thanksgiving. Soclose. Awesome. Yeah, I’m excited about it. It’s It’s the kind of thing that’s like not reallyreal yet, even though my daughter keeps growing. Like she’s crazy.She’s definitely like pregnant when you see her, but uh but my head still hasn’t registered thatwhat’s going to happen. So, um I’m excited though. I’m really excited. A baby girl. Like I I uh having girlshaving girls in general is awesome. having girls first is the best. So, they’re doing it right. So, I don’tknow, man. But like in in my I’m I’m wondering like I I think my genetics are a terminal part of the Patrick line cuzI only produce girls and now we’ve got our first one that’s going to be a girl. So, we’ll see if we even produce anyboys through through my side of the line. It’s up to you, Brandon. It’s crazy to think that my two boys inour family are the only ones that will carry on the Patrick name. Yeah. Isn’t that nuts?Yeah. Yeah. Um, golly, I better raise them, right?Yeah. Lot lots of pressure, man. Yeah. So, anyways, uh, let we could chatall day, Tyler, but uh, we have an awesome guest with us today. Um, JD, welcome to the show.Yeah, thanks. Glad to be here. Um, we’re really happy that you’re here. And, um, if you could, you have anawesome question. uh the type of question that Tyler and I just really like. Um because you’re a man searchingand and working and trying to be conscious for recovery. Like it’s awesome. So, but give us a little bit ofbackground. Tell us what’s going on. Help us understand where you’re at. Okay. Well, um I think place to start isthat I I am admitted that I am a sex and porn addict. I’m in active recovery. Uhthat all came about I mean just briefly history. I mean I’ve lost a job. I’ve lost I’m divorced twice anothersignificant relationship lost because all because of my acting out behavior. So I’ve been to like the depths of thisthing. It is just tore me up and chew me out chewed me up and spit me out. thinkum at the end of my last marriage that was nine and a half years um I realizedI looked at myself and I couldn’t hide from the truth anymore and that’s that I had a problem that was bigger than me that I needed help with. So I went to a12step group. Um I got a a seesat therapist who coached me to go there.Um, even though even with that, I still don’t want to be there. But I’m glad I did because I’ve been there for aboutfive years. And in that time, um, had some long bouts of recovery, like 11months, 10 months of complete, total abstinence away from porn. I had like four years away from it completely,which is amazing for where I was. I never would have believed that could happen. Um,and right now I’m at like at six months of sobriety. So in the process of thatrecovery, I started to date again. I had gone through a divorce. So I started to date again. And I had to do it oldschool cuz I couldn’t get on the porn app or the the porn the dating apps that to me were essentially like porn app. Imean, I just couldn’t stop like looking at pictures and stuff and scrolling. So did it old school. Met this amazingwoman. Um we dated long distance for a while over a couple states. Um, andluckily I had somebody in my life who coached me that before we got into a serious relationship, I needed to lether know who what what I was, my history. So, I worked through that and I did it. Um, be not like date one oranything, but it was, you know, far enough along that we knew where it was headed. And I’m really grateful shedecided that um I was somebody that she could she could be with. Um, and that’sanother gift of my recovery. But uh so we’re in the relationship. We’reabout two and a half years in our three three years now actually in our relationship. I’ve moved to where she’sat um so that we can continue to date and we’re facing some things. We’re engaged now and we’re facing some thingsand I’m facing some things around it. Um, I relapsed about a year ago and ittook me about six months to get back to recovery. And I think that opened her eyes a lot as to what this addictionreally was. I think she knew I told her, but she didn’t really experience it and and that the relapse woke her up to somethings um to what it really is like. She got into some recovery on her own of agroup and we’re now going through it together and I am staring down thebarrel of some real fears that I didn’t know that I had until I got here. And that’s that we’re engaged to get married and I have messed up so manyrelationships in my life and hurt so many women that I’m terrified of doing it again. You know, I trust my recovery.I know I’ve changed. I see that. I don’t think I’m all the way where I want to be, but um you know, one of the things Idelayed the engagement because I wanted to make sure I had some recovery before we did I couldn’t see myself staringacross the aisle or looking at her and you know, making vows when I wasn’tsober. So, I’m there now and I’m trying to move this thing forward. Um,and I’m just looking like I’m like the question is I’m trying to figure out how toaccept my history but but not accept that that’s how it has to be. Like trust my recovery. I don’t want to go thereagain, put her through that again. Um, you know, we’ve got some other fears.I’ve got some other things like with her. She’s got a daughter, two daughters. One lives at home that’s 15-year-old girl and trying to be a goodstepfather to her. I don’t want to I’m not trying to step in and be dad or anything, but she’s a tough personality and she’s got some wounds, some realwounds, and she doesn’t trust me worth one bit and I want to be trustworthy. I can’t make her trust me, but I want tobe trustworthy and have confidence in that. So that’s why I’m here is to get some help with trying to take that nextstep of getting married, living in this house with this teenage girl and womenthat my only history has been to hurt.And dude, I’m so glad you’re here, man. Um, can you before we dive too far intothis, can you just kind of describe I don’t even know if you have words for this, but your most recent, if Iunderstand right, your most recent divorce was 5 years ago. Yeah.And you’ve been dating her for three years, and you said something along the lines of basically the last four to fiveyears. you’ve had real changes happen in your recovery that you you know and can feel are authentic that maybe hadn’tbeen there in the past with other tries or chances or whatever. I’m wonderinga couple of questions there just to try to understand where you’re at. What are the differencesand what moved the needle to help with those differences?Well, I think the the biggest difference is a recognition of who I am as a wholeperson, the good and the bad. You know, I used to just be like had the mask of putting on the good and the person Iwanted to be and just trying to tell people that. But I accept that I’m not always that person. Uh like really justa real view of who I am. Um you know, some of my character defects I I gossip.I hold resentments. I get angry and and but I’m when I mess up, I’m willing togo and own it. I don’t have to say face anymore. I’m over that. I’ve lost enough of it in mylife because of the addiction that I can just go and say, “Hey, look, I screwed this up. I’m sorry. I’m trying to dobetter.” And then not only just say that, but actually put it into practiceand do things differently and overcome some stuff and build relationship, build trust.Um the shame I had so much shame before recovery and something at some pointclicked where I don’t have to earn my place in this life. I don’t have to earnwho I am. People like me, people don’t like me. That’s okay. Um, I’m I gave upa lot of the nice guy stuff, like being willing to to just sacrifice myself so much thatto make somebody like me and then they don’t like me and I resent the hell out of them, you know? I don’t want to Idon’t have to do that anymore. I can just say, “Hey, look, here’s here’s me. Take it or leave it.” I don’t mean thatin a in a way that would uh that I’m not trying to bull over people or anything,but just this is who I am. And um you don’t have to like it all. We couldstill be friends even if you don’t like it all. That’s all right. Mhm. Um you know, I’ve got a network of guysaround me, a sponsor in my program who know who I am and they give me goodadvice. They’re will they’re willing to call me on the BS that sometimes comes up of my own pride, my own uh storiesthat I tell myself. Um they’re willing to call me on that. And I’m also coaching some some guys, helping someguys um do that. And that’s that’s huge for me too because I say something to them. I don’t know if you all have everexperienced this, but I say something to them and it’s like, “Oh, that’s exactly what I needed to hear.” Um, why don’t Itake my own stupid advice? That that’d be a good idea. Maybe on a daily basis.What’s that? I said maybe that’s a daily basis for me sometimes. It’s pretty close to that for me, too.Yeah. H JD, have you um I I really like what you’re saying about acceptance ofself, loving yourself, um really not getting your worth from other people. Um do you feel like you’vedone that? You know, you’re accepting your flaws, your mistakes, who you are, living living your life in the lightmore. Do you think you’ve done that with your sexual self, your sexuality,and and who you are? No,no, I don’t think so. I don’t think I trust my sexuality. I’m not sure that I fully trustuh that engaging fully in that way that I cannot go back to just using and abusing. Right. The the reason I I like yourhonest answer. The reason I ask is because if your sexuality your sexuality is apart of you, right? We can we can all agree on that. It’s a big part of who we are. Um but if if that sexuality pieceis surrounded around shame or secrecy or self-rejection,then what’s going to happen down the road? And you’ve had this happen in your other relationships where there’s asexual part of you that is like so like scary to own. Um you want to keep ithidden in the darkest deepest place that you possibly can. But let’s saysomething happens where it comes out a little bit or and you start to isolate,go back into that secrecy again, and then you feel like you’re living a lie with your current partner and you’reback in that same place yet again. Do you see what I’m saying? Mhm. umcoming to terms with your arousal template and loving all of who you are as a sexual being doesn’t mean that youact out on that. But what you just said is like, “But I don’t know, Brandon. Like, I don’t I don’t know if I trustmyself because I’ve I’ve been compulsive. I’ve blown stuff up before.” Yeah. Right. With that.Yeah. And and the the c the I guess the the lie here is that self-rejection andtrying to control in that way actually keeps you safe from acting out.Um the reality is is not self-rejection but compassion,loving your shadow, loving your sexuality, loving who you are actually helps you have control to integrate yoursexuality into a really healthy relationship in your marriage or or inyour relationship. Do you see what I’m saying? Yeah. We So I mean we’re in arelationship. We we do have sex and there it’s just I don’t feel fully seenor known in that and we do have the conversations like there’s intimacy without sex like we’re I think I thinkbased on what I hear and read in a healthy spot except there’s this one little piece of it and it’s funny thatyou’re hitting that it’s that I don’t feel fully known. there is some some element of control still happening therebecause of the fear of once that’s out what do I do likeand and can she handle that you know like can is she going to work with me through that I’ve got again I can’tbelieve I’m doing I I’ve got some ED issues I’m older you know some thingshappen I think it could be porn induced I don’t know but I that’s a struggle toothat’s I mean I feel emasculated I feel demoralized. I feel like is she going towant to stay with me because I can’t she’s already expressed sometimes how she feels like it’s her fault cuz I I’vehad this sexual history and now we’re together and you know I’m I struggle andit’s not her fault. Like I’m way attracted to this woman. I She’s hot. II love her. I love I told her this the other night. I see when I see her body,I don’t see just a body. I see all the other depths ofconversations and moments where she’s loved me like I’ve never been loved. Moments where I’ve been able to show upfor her in ways. It’s it’s all like together which I’ve never experienced before. There there’s a there’s a discrepancybetween the two things you just said. I don’t feel seen. I feel not enough. Ifeel. And yet when I see her, I see all the ways she’s loved me in ways thatI’ve never been loved before. Um, do you see the discrepancy between those two things?Mhm. And and and the the question is is can like can your sexual relationship orintimacy with her make up for that? Or is there something else at play here?And I would guess it’s something else at play. And it’s the thing that has driventhe sex addiction from the very beginning. Like you could hear when you talkedabout the ED, you could you could Tyler and I could could feel the the deeploathing and shame that’s still there, right? I don’t want to speak for you, Tyler, butyeah. Yeah. I mean, well, it’s like I think there’s there’s I’m I’m hearing that and I’m going anybody in your shoeswould feel some of that doubt, some of that shame, some of that fear, some of that desire to likefeel like something’s broken or something inside of me. That’s that’s a normal response. But then Brandon’s getting at, but is there something elseunderneath it now that confirms the story that was already there? Right. The story that’s already there isthat I can’t be trusted with my sexuality. If people saw my sexuality,they would reject me. Um, and I probably learned that in some ways from somewherethat led to ways of coping and living that included not just the acting out with porn and sex, but all of the thingsthat help, you know, perpetuate it. secrecy, hiding, lying, deception,shrinking, manipulation, like all those other things all stem down to the story.Like what is the story? And I think where Brandon’s going is he’s talking about your sexual rejection because that’s like probably the most obviousplace to go with this because most people are there. Really what I think it is is any placein my life, any parts of me that I am still self-rejectingwill actually be some of the places that will become the sticking points in my ability to connect with my partner lateron because I won’t be able to be fully authentic until I make peace with thoseparts of myself. I’ve experienced that in other ways and I I I’m I’m hearing I’m hearing whatyou’re saying and I I I never looked at it that way that may I what I’m hearingis you guys saying that there’s like a sexual repression sort of thing happening where the fearI’m controlling it out of fear and and this is this is what I’mI’m hearing you say it and I I’m I’m actually identifying with it and relating to it that I’m the fear here.I’m blocking it. And that’s the same thing I did with just the rest of mebefore where I if anybody told me they love me, I never fully believed them because I didn’t know that. There’s thisvoice of you don’t even know who I am. And why don’t you know who I am? Because I’m not showing you who I am. And so,it’s this self-fulfilling and because I already have a story of who I am that you’re not agreeing with.It’s my story that’s the problem. It’s not their story that’s the problem in that moment. Right? Iflet’s let’s just kind of let’s cut down to the chase here just a little bit. SoJD, why why do you have a sex addiction?I don’t I don’t know. Okay. I really don’t I mean I’ve done work on my past and my history and I it’s not agreat it’s not a great childhood. um an addict, father, and I could pin it allon that, but the truth is I don’t know. I just know it is what it is, and I’musing other tools to work through it. Let’s let’s try to connect the dots. So,what what I just heard you say is I’ve like I’ve worked extremely hard to figure out how to manage it. Like, I’vegotten and I’m not discounting that. That’s amazing that you’ve worked with seesats 12step. Like you’ve learned howto manage it. But let’s connect the dots. Why do you have a sex addiction?Because unless we deal with that, unless we get down to the to the root of it here, you’re going to repeat some ofthese behaviors in your relationship. Um, and and your sex addiction, this isgoing to sound really weird, but your sex addiction isn’t about sex. Mhm. You’reyou’re using it to soothe things. Um to get answers in a way that youhaven’t figured out how to get those answers otherwise. And it’s interesting that you went to well my dad was anaddict and there’s definitely wounds there, but you know, like I I just have it today and I’ I’ve learning how tomanage it. um ha you know if if we lookat your trauma and we look at some of the ways in which you what Tyler said the stories in whichyou live under um that’ll be really helpful to understand why you’re actingin these ways right so so what were some of the the themessages from childhood that you got um some of the things that you experienceddefinitely a a critical voice dad, you know, a dad that even when I did thingswell, there was always something to improve. And I know he had my best interest in mind. I found myself doingthe same thing with my kid, you know, but all I heard was the criticism. So,there’s that. not being enough is is one of the it’s one of the voices that I’ve workedreally hard to to calm or or um combat.I don’t know if that’s the right term, but not believe. So, so, so hang on. Uh this isinteresting because we’re going to take current JD down to inner child like hhow old? You know, maybe 10, 12 years old. I’d say six. Six years old. Okay. Six years old JDbeing being taught or feeling like not enough. Current JD having erectiledysfunction. Do you see how that do you see how thesame feelings are there? The same identity is there. Umcan you connect those dots? Do you see what I’m saying? Yeah, I see the the same feelings uh insome ways. And I do know that I I used the sex and masturbation and porn andyou know looking at underwear ads and all that stuff. I used all that to soothe. I I definitely know that thathas been the case from a really early age. I just there’s something about it that made me feel safe and comfortableand no one else is going to take care of me but me. So, and this is how I’m going to do it. That that’s something thatrecovery has really helped me with. But yeah, you’re that But JD, look look at what you’re usingto soothe. You’re using sex. You’re you’re using women. Um you’re objectifying the women to use to soothe,right? So, and I would guess in your past relationships, it wasn’t just about the the secrecy and the the acting out.You’re they probably also felt used. You were using them for your self-worth,using them for your okayess, using them to to to feel like you were enough. Sothat wound when you were 6 years old saying you’re not enough. You’re taking that question to your wives, to yourrelationships, and saying, “Am I enough? Am I enough? Am I enough? Oh, I let you down. Oh, I can’t perform sexually. Oh,I there’s more proof that I’m not enough.” And then you feel less than,you feel resentful, you want them to validate you more. Those type of things can come up. Um, but that this is allstemming from the trauma from and and sounds like some big T andlittle T trauma. It’s all stemming from that that needs to bedealt with. Um, that’s where your real recovery takes place.How do you deal with that? I mean, that’s what I’ve been working with from day one of seeing a seesat and and doingsome trauma therapy and going to and I think that’s the crux of my question isI’m still str I mean I I yeah do I have some recovery but I still have a lot of things fear that’s driving the busand sometimes get stuck totally completely stuck in I just don’t want tomove forward because it’s probably just going to all end in the trash again in a dumpster fireagain is is honestly the narrative that I have. I know it’s like a hard spot foryou to be in so courageously to come on this show and basically like be told in a certainsense be told that part of the risk that you need to take in order to move forward and this was about therelationship kind of in the first place was how do I not let my fear ruin this thing and now in in essence part of whatBrandon’s saying is I need to keep doing my own roots work in terms of that that but part of the roots work is is that Ihave to go and I have to not reenact the same traumas I always did. Which meansin the context of my relationship, I need to be an active work in progressand do that openly with the person that I’m dating. Which means she might rejectyou, right? It’s like you’re you’re right at this place where you you’ve got thiscave that you fear to enter, which is the feeling of not measuring up, getting rejected. And the pathwayforward is to cultivate the kind of relationship where somebody will walkthrough that fire with you because they see all of you. And the story would saythat if she rejects you, it’s proof that you suck and you’re no good. when in reality the pathway forward is if shestays, you found the right person to be with. And if she doesn’t, then you’regoing to go develop another relationship and you’re going to try again and you’re going to be authentic no matter what.Which is really hard when shame has been in the driver’s seat for so long. Um, but what you’re doing and and beforewe go too much further, I can hear it in you and I just want to I just want to say this out loud. Um, you’re here onour show trying to get help from us. And so Brandon’s pushing you really hard. I’m on the other side of this.That’s what I do. Yeah, that’s what Brandon does. I’m on the other side of this. I’m not done yet, by the way.This is This is like the release valve for a second before Brandon presses again, but I hear the recovery. Like yougot a heart that’s driving yourself to your own progress. You’ve already made alot of progress. I mean, the fact that you’re coming on here on a show and we asked you beforehand, hey, do you wantto come on the show? We can change your name. We can do like, nope, this is me. This is who I am. I can do this. Itthat’s evidence of the fact that you’ve already done a ton of work here. And I just want to acknowledge that eventhough you’re getting pressed on right now, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater here. You’ve already made aton of progress in the in the even in the realm that Brandon’s talking about.So, so it’s kind of a both end right now. And I just want to like acknowledge that to you JD.Thank thanks for acknowledging that. And Brandon, I I appreciate it and respect it. Like lean in. I can handle ifrecovery taught me nothing else. I can handle this. It’s uncomfortable and I’meven getting a little bit upset to be honest. But I know that’s where the growth is. So keep leaning in and andI’ll I’ll keep I’ll say and you can push back a little with your upsetness too if you want JD. That’s fine too. But one thing Tyler and I doall the time with our clients, and we have for years, is, and I’ll let the cat out of the bag here a little bit, we’rewe’re constantly assessing how much our clients can take in terms of pushingthem into doing harder work. Um, and sometimes we have to back off and buildsome more rapport and not get too close, you know, to the to the pain. It’s like we’re like Dennis and we’re working withthat nerve and it’s like, whoa, that’s too close. Okay. Um and and I feel fromyou JD that that you came on here um like with with a real question that hereyou are looking at marriage again and come hell or high water, you don’t wantto be in that same place again. So like let’s get down to business. Like let’slet’s let’s look at this and let’s deal with it. Um do you know what the mount of doom is?Mount Doom. Have you ever heard of that? Can’t say I do. Well, it’s in Moridor. So, uh, Frodogoes to Mount Doom. Oh, we’re measuring our nerd levels now. I got you. Yeah, we’re going to Lord of the Ringsnow. And and believe it or not, like I’m not a nerdy. I would I would own it if I was, but but I do know Mount DoomMoridor. Um, you think of it like Frodo goes on this big long journey. Like it’s just umit’s hard. There’s challenges all along the way to get to Mount Doom. Like he hegoes on this big long journey to go to this place that is like scary and awfulin Mordor. Why would he do that?Why would he Why would he do that? Well, it was the only place he could destroythe ring. It was the only place that he could. And so he had to crawl down in that volcano in that lava and go rightthere. Now, here’s the deal. Um, uh, Tyler Tyler mentioned the cave you fearto enter holds the treasure that you seek. Um, there’s layers of protective partsthat don’t want you to touch that exile part. But JD needs to go find that innerchild, that six-year-old, and not rescue him from the pain.But sit with him in it for a moment and and allow yourself to feel it. Andand maybe you’ve done that in your therapy. Have you done that in your therapy, JD? I I’ve done some of it, but I’ve beentold recently in the last maybe six months that I probably have some more work to do. There’s been some things that have come up that are showing sometrauma and get some, you know, go back and do some more work. Uh and I’ve avoided it to be honest. I’ve avoidedit. I kind of went in one ear and out the other. Uh interesting. And and that’s your protective part saying too close to thenerve like that the like don’t get to this exile and you even did it with uslike I don’t know if you noticed that when when when we started in and you’re like yeah yeah there’s trauma but like Igot this thing and I want to deal with it over here and I you know but there there’s that trauma thing right like andthat’s your protective part saying uh-uh like too too sensitive too much painthere. Um, so what you with your therapist when yousay trauma work, have you done EMDR? What like what have you done to do trauma work? Yeah, I did some um EMDR and then umsomeone with like some heart centered therapy. It was uh a little mix of I don’t know what I I really don’t I knowthat I know that I got to some really deep stuff like just the the relief thatI felt almost immediately afterwards and it wasn’t with my seesat that he actually referred me to somebody else who was a specialist in this stuff. Sothat’s where I got some some help. Um I’m having tr I’ve had I sort of half-heartedly looked for somebody to togo to now that I’ I’m living in Utah. Um, but not not with a real real desireto to lean in and so I could do some more work there. Um, I’m scared of it. II am. I’m scared of I know what it was before and I know the relief that I got, but I also know how much that journeytook out of me and took get a little choked up.It was tough. Yeah, it was tough. Uh, and it was in the middle of adivorce when I was going through it, too. So, there’s a lot of grief and other things wrapped up in it, but I’mgrateful for it. That’s that that’s some of the other emotions I’m having is just the gratitude that I could get throughit. I did some things that were harder than I ever imagined I could do to get there. Um, and to think I’ve got to godo it again. And that’s what I’m hearing you say. There’s more work to do here. It it’s like it’s a little dishearteningand and it’s also like if I can remember what I did and how I felt afterwards,it’s worth it. It’s worth it. Yeah. There’s there’s no way you’d be at thespot you’re at being pushed into this place if you hadn’t done the work you did before.And I I think you’re like, you know, you’re like most people. And I what I like about what you said here, JD, isyou acknowledge that there is a cost to the progress sometimes. You know, Brandon and I feel this allthe time just on a one-on-one basis when people come in and we we were like, “Hey, we’re going to do EMDR. We’re going to do ART or or we have thisprogram called the healing journey that walks people directly into and through their own caves.” And we run our groupsbased on them. And it is like pulling teeth to get people to walk into some ofthe places we ask them to go because it’s really hard work. It It’s the caveeverybody fears to enter that we’re talking about. And for you to acknowledge that and say, “Hey, there’s a price to that progress and sometimesmy heart falters.” Like that’s legitimate. Um and sometimes there’s like a it’slike a breathing thing. There’s a there’s a go on the inb breath and then there’s a pause on the outreath. And itsounds like what you went and did today is you just you were in the midst of an outbreath for a second and you came hereand Brandon like increased your breathing really fastand and and now you get to decide if you want to rest a little longer or if you want to go in and start paying some ofthat price again for the growth. Now remember, it’s still growth,right? You’re not you’re not going back in and being like, “Oh, what I did in the past didn’t work.” You’re going, “Ohmy gosh, like I did all that work and I yielded a result and now I’m looking at this new piece of myself that I couldnever even think about or touch and now I’m considering whether or not I want to go dance with that part and actuallymake some peace with it. I couldn’t have done that if I didn’t have the last five years under my belt.”So, it’s both. Um, and man, I love I love that. I love seeing your heart, man. I love I waswondering what you were experiencing while Brandon was talking because I’m like if you’re defensive like maybe youdon’t want to go address it. Maybe you’re maybe you honestly believe hey look I’ll just keep addressing this thing right in my life right now andmaybe I’ll maybe I’ll heal all those deeper wounds by doing this now. So youcan go and do that too. Like you you still ultimately have the choice. Well I am defensive don’t get me wrong.I I but I’ve I’ve learned that that I’ve learned to use those as my cues when when my heart and everything in me,my gut right here just says, “No, I look at that and say, yeah, yeah, that’swhere I got to go.” And I hate it. I don’t love it, but it’s what’s broughtme recovery. It’s what’s brought me. It’s a little another piece of myself ofacceptance and just a sense of peace in my life that I haven’t experiencedbefore. So, I’m hearing you and and it’s landing. It’s tough, but you know what I’m hearing is I gotto go get this um EMDR or or some trauma therapy around this. Probably some morehelp. Lean into some of this. Go into the cave like you’re saying. I I met uha few weeks back with a client and and they uh there there was a a cave thatthey needed to enter and so I met with them. We talked about it and it wasterrifying. We were talking about Mount Doom, so to speak. And um and they werelike, “Yeah, I know. I know. I got to deal with it. I know I got to go there.” And um and I I haven’t seen him since.And uh and and I get why. I understand, you know, when when you’re ready, you’re ready. Um but JD, with your question andwith your your background, you’re looking back on the outcomes of your life. Um you’re you’re looking back onlike the things that you’ve created and you’re saying, “I don’t want to keep creating the same things. So, what do I do?”Well, um, you’ve gotten, one thing that you’ve created is you’ve gotten good at managing things in your recovery. And soin this new relationship, well, it’s not that new, but if you were to get married or actually take that step that you’llmanage for a while, but then when something happens or comes upand all of that shames underneath and it pushes you into that thing that happensor comes up turns into a long-term thing or longer than you’d want it to be, then you’re back in that same spot,right? Mhm. So, let me I I want to just like tellyou just things that that I think are really awesome and helpful to actuallygo and enter the cave um to do that work. And before I do, I I want to sayit seems like you have the right type ofum what’s what’s you’re you’re able to surrender to do some trauma work, whichis awesome. You’re able to unburden those protective parts because you’re saying like I’ve done some deep work.I’ve gotten there. I’ve felt things. So that’s awesome. That that means that we know you can do that. You know, youcan go there. Yeah. Um, and Tyler, add in any anything here, butI’m going to say this to you, JD, and and part of you is going to be like, “Dang it, like don’t tell me it’s that easy and that available and I can go dothis that but it is like you could get into Tyler or my practice for ART orEMDR in the next week or two.” Like, you could get a session, you could get goinginto some deep trauma work. um therapy wise, uh we could start in on some partswork. What what I would what I would do if you were my client is we’d start inon some parts work. We’d use that parts work to um to to get into the art andthe parts would actually help us the parts work would actually help us in that art process. Umand so that’s what the therapy side would be in a therapy office.Um, also like Tyler and I have talked about it so much our audience isprobably like nauseous with it, but our experential like our retreat that’s whatwe do there. We we literally enter a cave like we literally do that deep soulexperential work around other men and help you get a better understanding ofwho you really are beyond the beyond the trauma. Um that’s why we do experentialwork. Um holotropic breath work, plant medicine, those type of things walk youin as you unbburden that um protective parts and surrender to a new knowing, anew understanding of self beyond what you were taught when you were a child. Um, all of those things are availableand those aren’t those aren’t everything, but those are the modalities that we use to help people get to wecall it your white stone or your true understanding of yourself, reclaiming your heart. Like, you’ve done thisalready, JD. It’s awesome. You’re not starting from square one here, but you can get involved in all of thosethings. It’s a matter of whether you’re ready, whether you want to, right? So,Tyler, anything you want to add to that? I I wanna I maybe have a couple of thoughts, but I want to just ask JD, howis everything Brandon saying landing with you?About like the thing I can equate it to the most is when I first stepped into the 12stepmeetings where I heard all these guys telling me my story before they knew who I was. like telling me all the thingsand I was just repulsed by it. I just I couldn’t I I knew it was the truth, butI just was like, “Are you freaking kidding me? Are you kidding me?” But Ijust kept going back and uh and and it it happened. And I I think I can fastforward, you know, I can play that tape. I could sit here and dotle with it and tinker with it and let it just kind ofBut it’s coming. It’s I don’t I mean I don’t see myself getting married withouthaving to do this work first. Otherwise, exactly what Brandon played out. It’s gonna just be the same thing over again.And I am not going to do that. I’m not going to do that to her and I don’t want to do it to me.So, it’s got to happen. And you’re not the first person to tell me it um in various ways. So, and the fact thatyou’re telling me this, you don’t even know who I am. And you’re you you clearly know who I am. So, I’m going to hear it and I’ll make the call. I I’lllean in. I’m I’m ready. I’m Let’s go. Cuz I hate it, but I got to do it. I canI’ve I’ve experienced too many times in my life where I fight and I fight and I fight and I just get kneecapped, you know, and I end up just bleeding out,just suffering. Or I can just hit my knees and just do it, you know? It’sit’s optional. It is optional. So, I’m I’m ready to lean in and do it.What’s the So, so you said you were repulsed, but then this emotion iscoming out like what before I go to the repulsed part, what’s the emotion that just came out right now, JD?It’s it’s like emotionfear. Um, understanding of like I can’tThis is a point that I get to in my life where I see the fear and rather than be ambushed by it, I put it in a headlockand I say, “Let’s go. You’re not going to ambush me.” Yeah. My It’s not I can’t It’s not rid of it, butit’s coming with me. So, I I I guess I feel um some courage, I think, would bethe word. Like the the the willingness to let’s get into that cave, but I’m stillscared. There’s a little boy that’s just like So, it’s a mixed feeling then.Yeah. Yeah. You’re feeling you’re feeling the fear with that anybody would feel as Brandon’s getting closer and closer tothese parts of you, but you’re also having something else well up inside of you that’s likeI got I can do this. Like I got this. Like I I have to take action. I got to Iyou’re you can’t really have that courage without the fear. Um,but uh that’s what I’m hearing you say. Yeah. Yeah. There’s I would say there’sa little anxiety, but it’s not all negative. And I’m trying to connect with what are the what are the positivefeelings that I’m feeling. And I I think it’s confidence. Um although it’s a trepid it’s there’ssome trepidation with that. It’s it’s a f it’s not a false confidence. It’s just aan unknowing uncertainty. But there’s a like a a good anticipationbecause that unknowing that I felt in the past and I’ve leaned into it, theother side is peace. So it’s there’s a hope. I’m feelinghopeful. And and let’s let’s let’s talk about like your relationship and and jumpinginto marriage. Um, are you more likely to create a long-term healthy marriage by havinggone through this process and done this work or by avoiding the pain, managingit really well, and uh not dealing with the demons deep down? Do you see whatI’m saying? like um if if your partner and and I don’tknow her at all, but if your partner’s unhealthy, she’ll want the person who doesn’t go do the hard work so you canbe unhealthy together. Um but then your relationship will corrode. Yeah.If she wants a healthy man, then she’s absolutely going to stick with you evenwhen you’re in the depths of hell doing this work and coming out on the other side with peace. when when you’rehurting because you’re dealing with the pain, with the trauma, when you’re figuring out how to just totally beauthentic, live on the surface, and you’re already doing that, JD. But she’s going to be like, “Oh, heck yeah. Like,that that’s the man I want because I want a healthy man.” And I promise you, if that’s who she is,and that’s what you’ve done, you’re going to have a very different experience than what you had in your other relationships. Um, but you won’tknow that until you lean into it and actually go through it. So,I I would just add one thought that I’m having too. Brandon might disagree. JD, we’re we’re going off of like what a 45mminute call right now. Um, but I don’t I I I wonder if there’s apart of you that’s feeling kind of like hopeless, too, that you finally found the right woman, but now you’ve got to go heal everything before you can getinto this marriage. And I’m not sure it works that way exactly. If that’s whatyou’re feeling, I feel like being transparent about the work you’re doing and the commitments you’re making stillallows for there to be progress in the relationship. Yeah. Um so it’s not like, okay, I betterhurry and put things on hold with her until I go and conquer all my demons. No, it’s I if I’m going to go deeperwith her, I’m I’m going to let her know that I’m going to be working on conquering these demons.And then that gives her a chance to then be a partner who can support you while she continues to do her work if shechooses to. Um, and in a long in the long term, if the relationship continues, that willactually only work to rebuild trust deeper because she’ll get to see thekind of person that you are and the life you’re striving to live and the honesty that you’re doing it with. So, um,that’s just a thought. I appreciate that. Yeah, it’s not an either or. It can be both.That’s right. JD, we’re running low on time. Is there any last questions or anything that you you want to get off your chest before wewrap up? No, I appreciate you leaning in, being willing to do that. Um, reallychallenging me. I’ve got, you know, I’ll I’ll take a look on your website. How do I get connected to either one of youguys? Um, so for me, you can go to therapyco.org.It’s just therapyco.org. org and you can find my website there. Um, and and lookat the therapists that we have and contact me on the the number on that. So,okay, Tyler, that’d be the best. I I think uh the the best place to kind of just get into anykind of connection you want would be reclaimyouheart.org. Uh there’s a free community there thatyou can start with and then there’s also the course I referenced plus there’s the opportunity to join groups or get therapy, whatever else you want tothere. Um, or you can go to lovstrong.com if you’re interested. I don’t know what part of Utah you’re in,but uh, Bren and I are both in Utah. You’re probably sandwiched somewhere between us. So, um, but, uh, man, I Igot to just tell you, I’m so glad that you came on the show today, dude. Like, you gotyou got good energy, you got good forward motion, at least from my opinion, outside perspective. It’s apleasure to talk with with a guy like you who’s sincerely interested in like being your best self,man. Like you’re I just want to say thank you. You to me are a gift today.So, thank you after all that you’ve been through for that. You’re here talking tous. You’re you’re a fighter. You’re a warrior. um you’re willing to keep goingand uh I you know I I don’t think that we’ll have this conversation and you’ll do absolutely nothing with it. I thinkthat you’ll process it. You’ll think about it and you’ll start moving forward and and fight some more and do whateveryou need to do to to find real peace and healing. And you’ve already done so muchof that. So um thanks for coming on JD. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks both. Yeah, thank youJ D. Thank you to our listeners. If you’d like to throw out some support for him, the best way to do that is eitherthrough the comments if you’re watching it on YouTube or go to the reviews on any podcasting platform and leave areview and mention him specifically. And uh man, we love what we do. And thankyou to to everyone who’s here and who supports us. And until next time, keep on keeping on.