How do we BREAK our Unhealthy Relational Patterns?

In this episode, Tyler and Brannon talks about how shame can sabotage connection in relationships and what it takes to break the cycle of disconnection. They explore the “messy middle,” explain the infinity loop of conflict, and share tools for navigating emotional triggers with empathy and resilience.

Intro

How do we break our unhealthy relational patterns? Hey, Tyler. What’s up,Brandon? How’s it going, man? It’s good. What’s up with you today?We uh we we actually had a kind of a cool weekend. We um have Rian’s sisterwho lives in Tallahassee came out for the last well, not quite a week and hasspent some time out here. So, we haven’t seen our niec’s nephews in at least I haven’t in a in a few years. So, it’sbeen really cool to kind of just spend the last few days with her family, which then draws everybody else together. So,

Couples Work vs Individual Work

we’ve seen a little bit more of Rianna’s other sisters and sister and brother and their families. And so,did you take him to Lagoon or something? What did you do with them? They did go to Lagoon one day. I’m moreof the outdoor kind of guy. So, today after work, we’re getting uh a little bit later in the evening. We’re going togo spend some time in nature and that’s going to be my contribution. So, I see. You going to go hug some trees orThere’s a There’s a little place we called there’s there’s a little place called the Hobbit Caves that’s close to our house thatThe Hobbit Caves. Yeah. It’s just like a It’s like It’s basically like a little kid’s playground that’s just like rocks and little nooksand crannies and stuff. So, they’ll like a little creek that they can get wet. I want an uncle. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever.Hey, you’re you’re my kid’s favorite uncle. You and Uncle Rex and Z and Z and Whiz.Let’s be honest. All of those other uncles are more of their favorite uncle than me because that’s not true. I’m so uninvolved.You’re a great uncle. You’re a great great uncle.Do you remember when you got Reed on the train at the zoo?He He loved that. Yeah. You held him in your lap and kept him safe.That was great. He Oh, what an uncle. What what I do do reallywell with is once the kids start to get older, if they would actually come hang out with me, I love taking them out anddoing that kind of like active stuff. And you know, I got to I got to witness your son on his first deer hunt lastyear and that was a treat for me. So yeah. Yeah, that’s I I got to get him up with Uncle Tyler Moore.Um well, we have uh we love when we get couples here and we have a couple here

What Is the “Messy Middle”?

with us today. So uh we have John and Valerie on the show. Welcome to the show, guys. Hello.Hello. Hello. John was with us just a couple weeks ago. And so John’s a glutton for punishment.Hey, I want to thank him for, you know, coming on with Valerie. This is great. We get we get the other perspective, theother side today. So, um, so Valerie, just if you could just give us a littlebit of background, tell us what’s going on for you, and we’ll just kind of go from there. Um so like background frommy story or background as to where we are right now. Yeah. Where you are right now. Okay. So we’re about um five yearsalmost six years since initial D-Day.Um and there’s I’ve done a lot of my ownindividual recovery work. I did Essen for a while. I have seen a seesat for along time. I was in a women’s group. Um, and I did my work. So, let’s just say ittook me four years to get to where I believe I am in a healthy place formyself. Okay? So, I did a lot of work. I know who I am. I know it’s not my fault. I know I’m enough. I know my worth. I’mboundaried. I it’s like I feel very very solid in um that.So um where I’m struggling is that Ieven with all of those things. So that’s my individual healing. Even with all of those things, I still don’t feel likeI’ve really even been heard. Um, or that the impact of what has happened and thedepth and the breadth of the behaviors, I I just still don’t feel heard. I don’t

Progress Doesn’t Erase Triggers

necessarily think he gets it. But what brought us here today specifically is that whenI’m triggered um which is all around us because of the nature of of um theacting out behaviors. There’s a lot of triggers in our environment where we live etc. And I have felt that mytriggers are just a big fat inconvenience for him. and um that my heart isn’t being takencare of and I’m not being treated with the respect and the empathy that I feelI deserve um when I’m struggling.And so that’s kind of where we are right now. So what has happened for you knowover the evolution of the five years it’s like obviously I was getting ret-raumatized all the time because theacting out and everything lasted for years and there was discovery afterdiscovery after discovery. So I’ve had those moments where I’ve completely like freaked out gone offline and screamedfor 20 minutes. You know that whole thing I I have experienced that.However, um those things are not happening anymore like they were. And now when Ihave a trigger, I’m able to just say it. I’m feeling triggered by this. This is what’s happening for me. I’m calm. I’mnot accusatory in my view. I’m not blaming. And then basically umI I end up after a trigger cycle I endup feeling more isolated, more abandoned, more alone. So what has happened recently is just like after so

From Aggression to Minimization

long of dealing with all of this, it’s like even something that in the you know5 years ago would be like this tiny tiny tiny little relatively speaking trigger.Now when something happens and I am met with either defensiveness or dismissiveness or minimization or arobotic I’m sorry you feel that way. Um, I literally like I just want to head forthe hills. I don’t want to talk to him. I don’t want to see him. I don’t want tobe social with him. I literally just want to completely disconnect because mymy tolerance for that response is basically zero. Now I used to tolerateit too much and now I have no room for it anymore. And so most recently therewas um an honesty situation which I also have no tolerance for anymore after allthis time. It’s just like I don’t do dishonesty. That’s not who I am. That’snot my values. I don’t want a relationship where it’s there. And eventhough when it’s um again bigdishonesties from the past of like I’m hiding a you know a long-term multi-yearaffair partner versus I just didn’t disclose something relatively minor.It’s like I the tolerance is the same for me. I can’t deal with it anymore. I don’t want to deal with it anymore. Andso um so for me right now for myself what feels unhealthy is that when thathappens I just want to completely disconnect. So like right now we’re in acomplete disconnect mode for the most part and it’s been like 10 days. So this is not I’m going to go to dinner, I’mgoing to go for a walk. I’m going to go take a bath. I’m going to go to the gym. This is I want no contact because um Ihave to have peace. Um, and so those So, so anyway, does that help?Yeah. I guess what I’m wondering is why is that unhealthy? UmUm, well, it the I guess I’m going to sh all overmyself for a second. Um, it feels Now that’s unhealthy. Yeah. Um, yeah. So what it feels like is

Trust Rebuilds Slowly

that the disconnection isn’t helpful for moving our relationship forward. That’swhat it feels like. I can understand that maybe this is what needs to happenso that the impact is understood. um or you know on his side I don’treally know but for me it’s how I can stay at peacebecause my I have no I just don’t have any resilience left for my heart notbeing taken care of and if I may I like to jump in just mythe challenge I and so exactly what she said it’s like uh how do we at the sametime concurrently as opposed to in serial fashion concurrently still,you know, build up that relationship trust and connect and um me to have theopportunity to jump in with empathy and have that right now when we’re fully disconnected. Um I focus on me and meonly which is a good thing, but the relationship is not being tended to if that makes sense.Yeah. I I would I’ll say it another way is that I’ve been vulnerable. I’ve saidhow I feel. I’ve said how things impact me. I’ve shared my feelings. I’ve beenreally I’ve expressed my needs on what I need from him to get me through thesetimes. And since I’m not getting that, um II I’m not seeing the u it doesn’t feel safe for me to be vulnerable anymore. Like I put myself out there and I get

Still Feeling Abandoned

the smackdown and I’m just tired.Yeah, this is uh I mean what you’re describing is unfortunately it’s a really common kind of pattern andprocess that a lot of couples find themselves in and it can be really hard to navigate because part of the answeris the messiness of the practice. But you don’t want to practice if you’re going to keep getting hurt. Yep.And uh that makes it that makes it really challenging. Um, I want to ask John, you know, you’re you’re hearingand you’ve kind of agreed with everything that Valerie is saying, and you’re hearing her say, “What I’m reallylooking for is when I bring these things up, whether they’re brought up into 20-minute rant or or maybe, you know,the softer way of, hey, I’m having a rough time right now.” Um, what whatgets in the way if you know that she wants the empathy, what’s tripping up the empathy for you?I think goes back to what we’ve talked about in our first podcast, which was umthere are some deeper issues I need to tend to to come forward and be vulnerable and be authentic with her umand connect with it. Um I’ve got to maybe own a lot of my own challenges inmy past. And as Brandon put it, kind of go deeper into the the why. And and umI’ve done some Y work, but I need to go deeper. Um I guess I I did the lowercase Y. I gotta do the uppercase Y, if youwill. Uh, so I really I I I gotta I gotta make that happen. So that’s one that’s one thing I need to do. And two,

Infinity Loop Explained

I need to um not miss opportunities to show that love and and connection andleaning in and being there and and um being that safe, as I’ve heard, a safevessel for her pain and trauma. I I want to be that person. I want to be that partner. So I want to do it. The desireis 150% there. Um,Valerie, why are you still here in the relationship?Um, because John’s my John’s my best friend,you know. I mean, II have loved the good parts of our relationship.Um, we’re close. I feel I can 100% be myself with John, I feel, um, asidefrom these things, and I know how bizarre all this sounds, but it’s like aside from from these things, I feelaccepted. Um, I feel cared for. I feelloved. Um, I like our life together.Um, and so I wanted to workand I’ve been operating on hope for a really, really, really long time as he’sbeen slow to get into real recovery and start to do this other work. and I and I’m worn down and wonderingum do I move forward under the circumstancesbecause it’s costing me my peace.So, so I’m in I’m in that space. That’s a tough space to be in. On onehand, there’s love there and on one hand you have a lot to work from as a couple. youhave connection and there’s some partnership and love and those type ofthings, but that makes it that much more excruciating when there’s the dishonestyand the triggers and those type of things. And and so yeah, the reason Iasked you the question, Valerie, is because um you know, I really liked your answer.Um because if if you don’t have those things, then what what you guys need to

Attachment Wounds in Conflict

do as a couple to not live in this heightened state of fear and anxietytogether is is hard. It’s painful. It’s difficult work.And so there’s got to be some base and there’s got to be some willingness to dothat work together. Um, but doing the couple’s work does put it’s putting thecart before the horse. And I really like what you said, John, like working on the deeper issues and looking at your ownindividual recovery first and foremost is the most important thing. And butValerie, like he’s going to do things that trigger you in the future. He’s going to screw up. He’s going to It’s weTyler and I call it the messy middle. Mhm. Right. Um, and so are you know are howlong will you navigate that and what are the markers that you look for um for real recovery along the way? So you canbe triggered one day and just like the sky is falling. It can feel that way but can you back up and say yeah it feelsthat way and I’m seeing progress. Yeah, for for sure. Yeah. I mean, if Ilook back, you know, five years of of just talking about John’s situation,if I look back five years and I look back today, there’s like unbelievablemassive amounts of improvement. Oh, wow. Massive. Okay. I in terms of his own recovery and hisown behaviors. Okay. That’s awesome. So, so and I I have compassion. Iunderstand why um John got to where John is. Um and why the p I I get it. I can

Understanding Resentment

see um and I have empathy for for him.And so um so so I see that and I see that progressfor me relationally because I have always felt that my feelings I’ll say nine out of 10 timesmaybe nine and a half out of 10 times when I have my negative emotions I’mjust a pain. I’m just an inconvenience. Uh, so for a long time, so I’ll I’lljust go through. Here’s the evolution I see. For a long time, it was aggression.That’s how what I would be met with. If I was triggered, it would be all about, “God, I can’t even drive down thisstreet, you know, it would be him being mad at me for bringing something up to getting in the way of him doing what hewanted to do.” Um, and go straight to victimhood, you know. So, it’s like I’veI saw that pattern. that pattern became very obvious to me. So um so but againcontinuing to do my work, continuing um to be vulnerable and so the progressthat John has made is that he doesn’t

The Trust Equation

he’s not aggressive anymore and most of the time is saying that I understand whyyou would feel that way and then it ends there. Okay? And sometimes it’s defensiveness and sometimes it’sminimization and all those things just trigger me to way back when. It’s like,oh, here we go. So, what else is going on? If he has to defend about thisnothing thing that’s really a min minimal trigger, then it just like itjust hurts the trust that’s being been there’s been a lot of trust that’s been rebuilt. And every time I met with thatkind of reaction, it just chips away. Just little tiny chips away. So, um, soand I and I completely understand the whole deeper recovery, needing to work on thetrauma, needing to work on the core self-worth issues, and I know he’s starting to do that work. Um, and so Istill feel even with that progress, I still feel atthe end of it all abandoned and isolated. So a couple triggers ago, asan example, I’m like, hey, this triggered me. And he handled it fairlywell in terms of um, okay, sorry, you know, I understand why it’s that way.And then I invited him to be curious about it and like if you ever want to talk to me about why this is a triggerum and why you you know please let me know and it’s crickets. It’s nothing.

Shame Blocks Empathy

And so, sothe so my my frustration level or my my issue is thatI’m still feeling isolated and abandoned even though he’s made all this progress.Yes. Uh and that makes sense to me. And and I think, you know, I’m thinking about a couple things. If it’s okay, I’dlike to map out your your pattern just so I understand it really well. And then I have a have a few thoughts. Okay. So,just gathering what you both have said so far, let’s say, and it doesn’t matter who starts. It might be a behavior Johndoes, or it might be something you bring to John, but let’s say you bring it to John and you’re saying, “Hey, I’m I’mhaving a really rough day today. This thing that we just did reminded me and that I just want you to know that I’mkind of out of sorts right now.” And you say that to John and you you say it straight across to him expecting him tojust receive it and then give you a straight back response of some kind of empathetic thing like, “Oh man, I I’msad that even after all this time that still weighs on your heart. I can only imagine what that’s like for you. I’msorry you’re feeling that way. Is there anything I can do to help you?” yada yada yada. Right? Mhm. Instead of that, what you don’t see isthat imagine it’s in a figure eight like an infinity sign and you’ve at the top was your behavior of hey, I’m

Breaking the Pattern

struggling. But now what it does is it gets and goes down diagonal to the very bottom. And at the very bottom is whatwould, you know, be called the attachment wound. And that’s John’s attachment wound. And his attachment wound is something along the lines ofI’m unlovable. I’m not good enough. I’ll never measure up. I’m weak. And thenthat elicits a primary emotion, which is that shame or that fear of losing you orthat anxiety. But he won’t ever let you see any of that. And then that emotionmoves into what we call a secondary emotion which is the part that you start to see the defensiveness, the apathy,the minimizing. And then there’s a story that he gets in his brain that’s like all the dot dotdot that wasn’t said is filling in in his brain of man like when is she ever going to let me off the hook here? Likewhy is she always so negative? Why am I never going to be enough? Why am I never going to measure up? And then his behavior back to you issometimes it’s apathy, sometimes it’s defensiveness. Sometimes it’s minimizing and he thinks he’s like giving you aresponse back. But what it’s doing is going down the other side of the infinity loop all the way to the bottomand hitting all of that attachment stuff again. The reminders, the echoes of everything from the past. And then ithits the the primary emotion which is man, I’m feeling devalued. I’m not feeling seen. I’m not feeling chosen orcherished or important. But then it builds to a secondary kind of an emotion which might be exasperation,tiredness, frustration, and then your behavior is f it. I’mpulling away. I’m I’m not doing this right now. And then when you pull away unknowingly, you’re like, hey, I’msetting a boundary. I want to be valued. And what he does is interpret it all the way back down to the attachment of there

Holding Space When It’s Hard

it is. I’m getting rejected. And then you guys are in this dance of a figure eight of complete disconnection. Is thatpretty close? Oh, yeah. Oh, it’s not your first rodeo, Tyler.You you you relate to that, John? Yeah, I do, unfortunately. Yeah. And one word that she’s said more recently,which is extremely uh painful to hear from her as well, is the res the buildup of resentment.Sure. In in that when that and that the cycle, as you mentioned later in the Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what resentment often isis resentment is the protest of other values not being met. So, so thatresentment isn’t even personal towards you per se, John. It’s just that you’re the one who is kind of stepping overwhat her value system is. And so, of course, she’s resenting you for that, which is also part of why she’s trying to figure out her boundaries becauseyeah, resentments are often a sign of unhealthy boundaries. And so, that’s so that’s what’shappening. So now you guys have this cycle going. And here’s where Brandon was talking a little bit earlier. I seeit as kind of like a dual thing where, you know, we talk about the trust equation. All right? And the trustequation is something like this. We usually say trust is rebuilt with humility,honesty, empathy, and work over time. But I wouldadd a part that you can’t get to the trust equation unless in the front end of that equation you have shameresiliency because shame resiliency won’t allow for humility. It won’t allow for empathy. Itit sucks us away from doing the work because we’re trying to protect ourselves all of the time and there’s no accountability in that. So, so that’swhy the individual work of the shame resiliency is so important for the relationship.And then you have so you have your own individual work you’re doing you know all the stuff you’re diving into now the deep end of the why whatever and at thesame time I still have a relationship that I have to navigate. So we’re going to have to learn to practice some

The “Grown Man” Dilemma

different kinds of steps when it starts to break down because right now you guys are probably going to break downsometimes. This is a dance that you guys have it’s it’s almost like automatic now. You guys can do it in your sleep,right? Yeah. A dance we don’t like. The Texas nostep. The Texas nostep. Yeah, exactly. Andneither of you guys are actually getting what you what the reason you cling to each other is because you still hope for the deeper stuff, which is, man, whatwould happen if we could have a conversation where Valerie was like, “John, I’m feeling gutted today, man. Isomething’s hitting me weird. My shame is getting activated. I’m feeling a little insecure.” And then John was ableto receive that and have his own shame fire off, but like know how to be resilient to it and put it aside and go, “Holy cow, Valerie, like that’s hard forme to hear, but I’m so glad you brought that to me.” And nobody likes to feel the way you’re feeling. I can onlyimagine what it’s like. I know I’ll never be able to fully feel it, but man, I’m here for you.And then Valerie would be like, “Uh, okay.” But that would feel so much better than like, “Uh, yeah, sucks to beyou. Get over it. We’ve been doing this for five years. Right? Because all Valerie wants to beseen is seen in the moment. And what would happen if she could see you at the lower level at the same time that she’soffering herself? And what if you could do the same where now she’s like, “John, I know this really hits your shame alot, and I really appreciate you hanging in here to listen to this, but I need you to hear me. Can you hear me right now?”Yeah. Right. And then you guys could communicate at that lower level of the infinity sign

Physical Therapy Analogy

across with empathy and kindness and compassion rather than the upper part which has zerovulnerability and zero accountability. Yeah. What I want to insert when it gets to that lower kind of angle is thatmoment of pause on my end to acknowledge I’m I can be triggered right now. I’mgoing to shame like that funnel is ahead of me. What what have you. Uh, I need to take that moment and not be reactive andand be very mindful of a respectful and loving response. And that’s that’s where that’s where it’s been challenging forme. I’ve been very reactive because the shame, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So, how do you how do youdesensitize the shame? Yeah. And how do you how do you learn a different response to break that infinity loop? You need to add anotherloop when your shame is so far that can get you to go out and process your shame somewhere else and then get backto your wife at the lower level of this at the core feelings rather than the defensive feelings.Right. Right. Yeah. So, so the tough part and it’s like I understand it’s the shame like Ican logically sit here. It’s like I track everything right. I’m completely tracking the pattern completely trackingthe dance. I completely understand the shame resilience. I know that John’s got his deeper level work having nothing todo with me to, you know, establish that, etc. But it’s like, what do we do in themeantime? Because that’s where we’re stuck is in the messy middle. And um Iagain I feel like it takes less and less to actually make me feel more isolated

Staying Present Through Conflict

and abandoned. Takes less and less to do that. And so I that to me is a concerning trajectory.Sure. Valerie, one thing you can do is that you and John instead of instead ofbattling with each other and h being triggered by each other, you kind of extrapolate out the problem and you youlook at that together and you work on you you work on that together. So dance.Yeah. The dance like Tyler’s what his figure eights or or whatever you want to look at. It’s like, okay, let’s saythere was a moment where John just totally just failed. Like, didn’t holdspace, didn’t, you know, he just wasn’t there for you at all. Okay. The normalresponse, I’m sure Valerie would, you’d be like, “Okay, there it is again. Like, how long am I going to deal with this?Like, I need distance. I need disconnection.” Then John goes off in his shame, feelinglike, “Well, I just failed.” And, you know, it’s it’s everything Tyler just went over, right? So, if you canacknowledge it and get conscious of it and both of you can say, “Whoa, there it is.” Okay, we’re doing it right now. Andthen have some tools in that moment to say, “Let’s recognize that it’s here.Let’s not run off in our shame right now. Let’s work on this together in this moment.” And this is what this is why wecall it the messy middle because this is really hard because triggers are happening, emotions are going off. Butfor both of you to acknowledge your feelings is what’s going to make it possible to do that. So if John were tosay to you, Valerie, in that moment that he just failed. Okay? If he if he were to turn to youand say, “Well, I feel so much shame right now and I just failed holding space for you. I just want toacknowledge that.” What would happen if he said something like that?

Don’t Leave Me Even When I’m Angry

Um, she say, “Darn straight you did.” That’s what that that’s what would begoing through my head. Yeah. It’s the truth. Okay. And let’s say let’s say you were still triggered and you you said thatyou said, “Darn straight you did.” Like, “Yeah, you failed me again.” That’s a top part of the the cycle, butthat’s okay. Yeah. So, you’re still triggered, Valerie, right? Yep. So, when when that’s happened, Ihave said something like, “I’m I’m really bummed. That was a missed opportunity for us to connect.”Okay. and we disconnected instead. Okay. What could you say to get aware ofwhat’s going on in that moment for you, Valerie? So, not something that disconnects fromhim, but something vulnerable for you. Um, I guessI could tell him that I’m feeling abandoned and isolated. Yeah, my heart hurts right now. I feelabandoned and isolated. And what if he came back with that makes me feel like even a bigger failure because I reallywant to be there for you. I would be able to understand that. Yeah. You you’d actually start to get tosome connection here, believe it or not, right? Because you’re both being honest and vulnerable versus like you’retriggered by each other because you’re you’re worried that you’re going to get hurt by each other. Um I hate to saythis and this might be a little triggering. Um, but it’s a double whammy, Valerie, andyou know this. You’ve been living it. Um, the same reason why he acted out withother women is the same reason why he can’t hold space for you. Yeah, I get that,right? You understand that, right? And so, it’s really it it it like hurts because he he’s he’s betrayed you andnow on top of that, he’s not holding space for you. Yeah, it’s it’s very easy to take both ofthose things personal for you. Do you see what I’m saying?

Where the Real Work Begins

Yeah. It it it goes against and I I know it’s not fair, but it goes against my value of fairness. It’s not fair.It’s not fair at all. Not Not at all. Um but what is the reason?What is the reason why why he can’t hold space and why he’sacted out? Oh, I get it. It’s his own self-worth issues. Okay. Okay. You you do get that, right?And so here’s here’s the messy middle is uhlike in that moment when he can’t hold space for you. He is a child. Like he’s he’s literallylike a child, right? Okay. And so then you’re like, man, I want to be married to a grown ass man.like I need to proc I need to process this pain I have from betrayal and Ineed a relationship that I can do that in and I want to be married to a to a grown assman. Mhm. Right. And so if you come back with you’re failing me, he retreats with hisshame. Now John, your work your work and this this is where the beauty happens.We talk about the messy middle. your work in that moment when she says, “Why are you acting like a child?” Or, “How

Final Thoughts

come you can’t hold space?” Or, “You know what? I’m done. Like, I’m finished.” Right? What’s your work inthat moment, John? Acknowledge exactly where I am, which isin that shame zone. And I reverteduh to that un unworthy person again. What if you’re What if you’re not there though, John? What if you’re not in thatshame? But she’s triggered and just feels like you are. What then? What do you doto acknowledge her perspective and hit her feelings? Yeah. So, you don’t take it personal andyou be honest with her. So, it might be you are in that shame of like, hey, I did just disconnect. Thank you forpointing that out. Can I have another try? um or you know what, like I didn’tdisconnect, but I can totally see that you’re feeling that I did and I’m here and I want to understand why you’refeeling that way. Do you see how you’re taking a step toward her in those moments? Yes.Right. And so doing this together is the dance and there’s going to be failure with itand it’s going to be messy and it’s going to be hard. Yeah. It’s like, and I hate to say this, andyou know this, Valerie, you know this too, and like it, but but like, have youguys ever been to physical therapy? Mhm. Was it fun?No. It sucks. You see where I’m going here, right?If you want to get better, like, and this is what a lot of a lot of couples like they they want to jump to the endlike, “Oh, can’t we have intimacy and trust and great sex and but if you want to get better, you haveto sit in the pain of it and the discomfort of those exercises so thatyou can rehab your yourself. And the beauty of it for both of you isyou’re you’re you’re very conscious and have done a lot of work, but it’s going to take stepping in again and againwhile you’re doing that individual trauma healing work. So, um Valerie, what are you thinking aboutwhat I’m saying? Um, it makes a lot of sense and it is,you know, my reaction typically just goes to, you know, I’m angry and frustrated and I need to recognize thatpause and say what it really is. Yeah. Um, yeah, that’s good, Valerie.And then so, so that I I can do that. Like I know I can do that. Um where mythe tape that’s playing in my head right now as I go through that conversation isif I do that then my fear is from pastis that John will go then I guess you don’t really want to be around me right now because why would you want to bearound someone who’s making you feel like this and retreat you know so like there have been times where I’m liketriggered and have said don’t leave me and he’s like but clearly you don’t want to be around me and I’m likeyou know, so that’s so I can do that. Just being honest, that’s where the tape goes in my head of the dance.Yeah. Yeah. That’s where my that’s where my tent folds, Tyler. And that’s where I want to leave the campground.Yeah. And that’s where that’s where the work really lies, where Brennan’s talking about. And and Valerie, I just want to say I I can relate to whatyou’re saying. I remember I remember one time taking my wife, it was actually during our honeymoon. We went a couplenights in Las Vegas. And I didn’t know what I was really doing, but I’m the kind of guy who who’s so insecure that I have to act like I know everything. Andso, uh, so we went to that tunnel. There’s a light tunnel that does this like light show. And then there, my wifewas like, “I want to see the strip, too.” And I’m like, “Oh, that’s not that far away. Let’s just walk.” It’s like,it’s basically from the tunnel to the strip is like three miles through the ghetto. Uber, man. Uber. So, so I’m walkingthrough and I’m walking her from the tunnel, my my brand new bride from the tunnel over to the strip thinking I knowwhat I’m doing. And we have all these people coming up to us who are scary, you know, like like we’re going to I’mafraid we’re going to get robbed or something. Had a guy come walk right alongside of us trying to panhandle money. And my wife mumbled under herbreath. She was like, “I am so mad at you right now.” Like, “Oh my gosh.” Andso I start to pull away and she grabs my arm and she’s like, “Don’t you dare leave me. stay right here. You know, soso that’s kind of what you’re saying is, man, the thing I need from you is your presence and attention even though I’mfuming at you right now. And I need you to have the strength to take to takeyour accountability for what you just put me in. But don’t leave me. Yep. And and in order to get there, that’swhere the work and the dance is. So I I want to go along with what Brandon’s saying and maybe just have three things going through my mind that are kind ofsimultaneously happening with what you’re describing. Okay. So, first one is of course we’re going to continuallybe working on our shame resiliency and the dustups that we have are going to bethings that push us into the shame resiliency work when they get too big. So now, so now when we have a dust up,it’s going to be, oh man, I’m, you know, 0 to 10. I’m at an eight right now on myown shame. I’m not going to be able to give you what you need right now, but I want to. So time out. And then in thetimeout, that’s where the shame resiliency work is going to happen. So, you know, I’ll give an example. My wife used to saythis to me a lot. She’d come to me and she’d say, “Hey, Tyler, I need to talk to you about this.” And she’d start talking to me. And I’d feel the shamestart to crush. And I’d feel myself slipping into like trying to practice empathy into self-centeredness.And you know, you know, and and as I slide into that self-centeredness, I got to be where she would say to me upfront. She’d say, “Hey, Tyler, I see you slipping away. I believe you’re capable of hearing me and if you can hear me,I’d love to keep talking. Yeah. If if not, then I’m out. I’m taking a time out. So, that was her way of doingit. And sometimes it would be me recognizing it and going like, “Oh, no.” Like, I’m not giving her what she needs right now. And I’d have to be the one tosay, “Hey, I really want to give you the best version of me right now, and I’m not it right now. Give me a minute.” Andthen I’d pull take my time out. Now, in the timeout, that part really mattersbecause imagine that figure eight’s going. Now, I’m pulling out of that and I’m going to do another loop all the wayoutside where I’m going to take some time. I’m going to get grounded. I’m going to get my values back intact. I’mgoing to do some self-care. I’m going to reach out to somebody on my team and get some perspective and be reminded this isn’t personal. And then I’m going toget coached back into what was she really needing right now? Oh. Oh, thereason she brought it to you is cuz she wants you to be there to hold it for her. Or vice versa, maybe Valerie, yougo and you get that and he’s like, “Did you see him trying?” But you know what you could do is you could ask him for this instead of that and call him upinto his manhood a little bit. Say, I want to be with a man who can hold this. Like, if you can hold it, please talk with me again.Otherwise, I am going to have to keep some distance. And that sucks for both of us because I don’t even want that. Umbut but now that time out part is self-care, grounding, perspective, otherteam members, and then get back into your better self, your same resilient self, and then enter back at the lowerend. So then when I come back to my wife, say, “Hey, I’m sorry I wasn’t there, you know, a couple hours ago orlast night. I’m in a much better space now. Tell me more about what you would like to share.”Um, so now I’m I’m not leaving that attachment wound open because I took the time out. I’m coming back and touchingthe points again with her in a much better place where we can practice the empathy again. And then when it breaks,we do the same thing. Um, does that does that make sense at all? Yes.I was wondering, we got 10 minutes and I I hesitate to do this because we could bust it open and then just leave thenerve dangling out, you know. But, uh, John, I was wondering if youwould be willing to let me and Tyler kind of be here for you, um, as and tryto dig in a little bit with Valerie and just kind of coach you a little bit. So,um, is would would you be willing to do that just a little bit? Yes, I am.I am. Valerie, what about you? Are you good to dig in just a little bit?Yes. Okay. So, something happened 10 days ago. Mhm.Um, so John, I want you tohold space for Valerie. And Valerie, I want you to talk about what happened 10days ago or what’s where you’re at with it right now, how you’re feeling. And holding space, John, means puttingyourself in her shoes, not yours. letting go of judgments about her and you and offering your presencewill be annoying Tyler and I if we see it going off the rails or and and we want to point out that these patternsthat Tyler was talking about, right? So, I want to let you guys go at this for a minute and we’ll observe but then justkind of show you John what what you can do or what will be helpful for for empathy. Okay. So, um so Valerie justtalk about where you’re at and remember you’re talking to John. Okay. And John, you’re talking to Valerie.Okay. Okay. Action. All right. So when when I discoveredthat you loaded that app back onto your phoneafter telling me that you had deleted it.Um I felt betrayed.Um I felt that you weren’t being honest with me. And I felt that I deserved to know thatinformation even though I wasn’t I had nothing to do with you removing the app. That was allyou’re doing. I made no demands or anything. And um I felt completely leftout because you had the conversation with your recovery network and made whatfelt to me a unilateral decision without considering my feelings. Um, and I wouldhave been fine with you adding it back because that wasn’t the issue for me.Um, I felt disrespected because and unimportantbecause I felt like you didn’t even think it wasn’t important enough. Myinterpretation is you didn’t even think it was important enough to tell me that you did it. And so then it made methink, “Wow, he sure this is where my brain went. He sure was excited to tellme when he got rid of it, which then made me think, oh, I was, you know, thenhe got an attab boy from me. He got a validation. Look at me. Look, Valerie. Valerie, I want to giveJohn a chance here. So, so, so John, just a quick littlepointer. Dig or reflect back. Okay. But first, check your shame at the door. This is the part where Tyler was sayinglike stop and check in with yourself. Check your shame at the door. Okay. Anddig or reflect back. Go ahead, John. Uh, thank you for sharing that, Valerie.I I understand that lack of honesty and transparency of my actionum was indeed um a unilateral decision. I did that.Stop, John. Stop. You’re fixing it. You’re not connecting to her emotion.Um, can you see that? It seems like you’re saying the right things. Well, he’s doing a right thing, but it’snot the thing that’s Valerie’s really asking for right now. Right. You’re not connecting to her.You’re you’re taking you’re taking ownership for you being a bad boy and and making the mistake. But she didn’tsay, “I need you to say you were a bad boy.” She said, “I felt what?”Dig or reflect back. You You didn’t dig with her and you’re not reflecting back.You’re taking ownership.I felt ashamed of putting it back on my phone withouttelling you. And I’m sorry about that.I understand your perspective and how it hurts you because it crosses that honesty barrier and that’s a boundary.John John, she doesn’t know that you understand that. So if you just come and say I understand that. I know I’m beingannoying, John. I I I know I am. So So what I’m what I’m I’m seeing here is Idon’t know if you know how to dig. I don’t know if you know how to hold hold that emotion or reflect back.So take try try this John. You’re not allowed to reference yourself at all inthis next line. Yeah. Ask her about you can’t say I, me, did whatever.Actually step into her shoes. Not even if not even your shoes thinking about her. If you were in her shoes, how wouldyou see the situation? Well, well, and and and and even consider that you don’t know how it isfor her at all. You’re an explorer right now with her. So, I I like what Tyler just said. Don’t speak about you andexplore with her.When you saw me put the app back on, how did you feel?How did that make you feel? Betrayed.Did it make you want to pull away from me?Um, no. Putting the act of putting the appback on wasn’t the issue. The issue for me is that it felt like you were lyingto me by omission because you didn’t tell me you were going to do it. But andand so I just felt like I was betrayed again.Go go go go one step further, Valerie. When you were lying to me, I felt like Iwas betrayed again, which leads me to feel or want to do blank. Um, well, it makes me feel like I’m notcared about and I’m not important and it makes me want to disconnect from you sothat I don’t have to feel that way. You deserve to be cared about. You areimportant. Don’t Don’t fix it, John. You just fixed it. So So now, this is tricky. John, you’re doing a good job,guys. I’m gonna give you two more options. Okay. You can even dig further. So, askquestions about her. Um or you can start to validate at this point because she she gave you her emotions. What sheWhat were the emotions, John? Did you hear what she just said? U betrayedunderneath. Devalued. Devalued. Um, not work, not uhrespected, devalued. Um, what did you say, Valerie?Um, not not respected, not cared for. Not cared for and noted.Start there with what Brandon just gave you, John.I acknowledge you didn’t feel cared for or respected.I own that. Don’t Don’t own it. That’s about you. You’re connecting to her. So, I know Iknow I’m really obnoxious. Um, is this making sense to you, too, Valerie? Yeah. So, um, I think you’re absolutelyon the right track with what you’re trying to do because one of the ways I would describe my experience duringthese times is he makes it about him and then I’m just left over there in thenext room in the corner dealing with it by myself, which which does a bigger thing to therelationship. And what what it’s saying to her, John, and I realize like when we talk about shame, it triggers shame. Butwhat it’s saying to her is I’m I don’t feel like I’m strong enough to sit in the vulnerability with you. And so thenit it wipes out for her a feeling of safety with you, which then makes hernot want to be vulnerable with you, right? And so when you go to fix it mode, when you when you when you justtry to get out of the situation energetically, um you’re saying to her, “I’m not safe.”Um but when you’re stepping in further, when you’re sitting in that discomfortwith her and you’re just staying steady, then she’s like, “Holy crap, I’m with a man that can like that can handle all ofme. I’m with a man that can I can come at him and say, “You betrayed me. You jerk.” and he can dig further into myemotions. Like what? Do you see what I’m saying, John? She needs that grown ass man.Yeah. That I love what you said last time we talked. You said, I I’m asking the wrong question. I need to do thedeeper work so that you can show up and be like, you know what? Like,so so where where you didn’t get to was was validation of like, you know, it makes a lot of sense why you’d feeltriggered. I’ve betrayed you in the past. You know, me me putting that appon behind your back, it makes sense why why you’re triggered by that and whyyou’re betrayed, right? Do you see how you’re not fixing it? Yes. You’re not you’re not saying,”I understand, and it’s okay. I’m acknowledging it. You’re acknowledging. You’re you’re validating. I validate I validate thatyou feel that way because it makes sense.” Yeah. Especially given our history.Yeah. And I am sorry. I am sorry, but don’t jump to sorry too fast because that that’s trying to fix it. I am sorryand I just want you to know that you’re not crazy. Trying to fix it seems selfish. WhereasI I recognize this this this and this and you watch for her body language and then she’s nodding and then it’s for herwhen you say I’m sorry. Like yeah, I can tell you’re feeling those things and you know what? You haveevery right to feel that way and for my part I’m sorry. I did make a mistake and I apologize,but I it makes sense why why you’re hurting right now and you can take the space, whatever you need. I’m here foryou. But do you see how you’re just like there? Yes.We did this in 10 minutes. Like this is Yeah. Like but this is the practice that you needto do in those moments. You recognize the patterns. you shift into new ways of communication and you do it while at theat the same time practicing your own shame resiliency. Um it’s hard. That’s why it’s so freaking messy.Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And I I think umhow I feel in those moments. I think invalidated is a very good descriptorof that. Um and I really just want to be heard.Yeah. You hear Do you hear that, John? I do. I do. I I guess when you talkabout acknowledgement and recognizing and validating is equates to her being heard and that’shuge for me to connect that. Another just another way of looking atthis to try to simplify it for the practice of where you’re at right now isshow that you’re seeking to understand before you do any fixing.Don’t fix. You’re not You’re not allowed to fix. Don’t fix. That’s That’s my natural reaction, too. Yep. I hear you.And you’re also not allowed to bail. So, you can’t unless it’s Unless it’s a timeout tocome back. Yeah. You can’t bail and you can’t fix it. You You what? You’re showing up for her.You’re loving her, right? She Did you hear what she just said, John?I did. I feel unseen. Yeah. And uh I I just want you to knowthat you are capable and strong enough as a man to hold that space for her andto see her in her vulnerability. Um you don’t you might not know that yet, but you’re getting on track to dothe right work to understand that so that you can do that. Um and and it’sgoing to be awesome when you start holding this space and showing up for her and empathizing.It’s going to be amazing. And I want to talk to you guys, you know, in a yearfrom now or so and just kind of see because there’s some there’s there’s some some physical therapy to do so tospeak for a while. Right. Right. You guys are doing it though, you know. I’m proud. I mean, even the fact that we can laugh. I hear Valerie laughing. Youyou hardly ever hear someone unless they’ve done a lot of work being able to laugh about this. Yeah. So, you know, I’m really happy to haveyou guys on. We’re out of time today. Hopefully, this was beneficial to you. I I hope that when you go back and listenagain, you’ll be able to pick up on some of the principles that Brandon was trying to get to right at the end there. Yeah. Um but man, these things are magic inrelationships when both people are committed to learning to break that cycle. And uh thank you to our g uh toyou guys for being our guests and thank you to our listeners for being here. And uh until next time, keep on keeping on.Thanks guys. Thank you. See you guys.