I’ve Been Working Recovery For A While And I’m Still Having a Hard Time Trusting

I’ve been working recovery for a while and I’m still having a hard time trusting.Branna, good to see you, man. You, too. Uh, you know, I saw you over the holidays, which was nice to see you.Always always nice to see you. You You ate a lot of turkey.No, no more than a normal year, I don’t think. I don’t know. I was kind of watching.Yeah, I’m sure you were. That’s the thing you pay attention to all the whole holiday. All the time.Yeah. I’m I’m sure it actually was a really good meal of food.Oh, so good. And the conversation after and just hanging out with you guys was it was one of the the best Thanksgiving.It was just a total chill day all the way around. Like it was there was didn’t feel like there was a lot of pressure.It was great to be with the family. Um your pickle ball game is impressive.I gotta say, pickle ball. A pickle. I love the game of pickle ball and I’m I’m not reallyall that great at it. So, you’re good. No, you’re good. I was impressed. No, we had a good time. That was fun.I got to go practice so I can compete with you. Whatever. I think you beat me. Yeah. Yeah. Um,well, should we just dive right in? Let’s go. Let’s go for it. Okay. Uh, Mandy, welcome to the show.Hi. Thank you for having me. You’re welcome. if you could give us a little bit of what’s going on with youand we’ll just go from there. Yeah. So, um my husband and I have beenum working uh to rebuild trust. He’s been um semiworking recovery um for about 3 years now from uh the like initial discoveryor betrayal in our relationship. And um there have obviously been, you know, upsand downs, a few um setbacks uh with the recovery, with his um specificaddiction. And um yeah, I just can’t I can’t get unstuck from that place oflike going back and forth from depression to anger, depression to anger. Um and yeah, I’m I’m stuck. Ineed help. Well, it took a lot of courage for you to come on the show and talk with ustoday. Hopefully, we can help a little bit here. Um, I’m so glad that you’re here, Mandy. Thank you.Um, yeah. So, could you talk just give us a little bit more um if you can ofwhat you guys have been doing in the last few years in terms of the work that’s gone on between the two of youand on both sides. Yeah. So, um, initially when, um, thefirst betrayal happened, it was kind of a huge blow up. Um, we split up for aminute and, um, I went and did some intense like retreat. Um, thankfully mymy I work for a church and so they’re very understanding of that situation.and they sent me away to a retreat and try to get some respit and healing fromthat. And he um he kind of dove into um like a 12stepprogram and um has been semiworking thatoff and on. Um and then we did do someuh couples therapy together with a um seesat and we worked that for about 6months together and then he did a few months on his ownwith the seessat. Um and then we kind of hit a roadblockwith uh just family stuff, babies, hospital things. And so, um, we’re onthe tail end of, um, having three kids in 3 years.Wow. Jeez. Yeah. And so, you know, we feel like we’re finally getting our heads backabove water to where we can actually settle in and say like, okay, let’s come back to what we were trying to do in thefirst place. Let’s get back to, you know, a a place where we can work on trust and safety with each other.So, so what are your kids’ ages? Uh, we have two-year-old twins.Oh. And then, um, our youngest just turned one. Okay. Yeah.Um, wow. So, there’s a lot going on with you right now. Yes.Um, so tell me a little bit. You say you’re stuck in the anger and depression. What What do you mean bythat? What does that look like? I think that um emotionally for me iswhat I feel like I just go back and forth from where umyou know in my my daily interactions with him is a different story. But whenI like when you look at the actual intimacy between us, the connection between us as as a marriage, um myemotions are either I’m so mad at you. Like I don’t want toI don’t want to do anything with you. I don’t want to look at you. I don’t want to hang out with you. Or it’s the otherside of it. And excuse me for getting a little emotional, but you’re okay. Umor it’s the the other side of it where it’s like I’m just so sad. Like I justfeel so sad about everything that has happened up until this point. So I feellike the depression is like in my mind it makes me swirl these thoughts of likeis it even worth it? Has too much happened? Um,and so yeah, I I go back and forth between those two places andI don’t feel like I can ever kind of get out of that pit.Which which Mandy, just this isn’t going to fix anything, but I want you to know that you’re not alone in in what you’regoing through right now. This is actually a really common thing that goes on for a betrayed partner. So, you’reyou’re not alone here. I I am wondering a couple of thoughts hereand and this is hard because we’re just talking to you for the first time and we don’t have a lot of a lot of background.Um, some of what you’re going through could be legitimate red flags becausethere’s a continued lack of trust in the relationship. Some of what you’re going through could be that like he’s killing it in hisrecovery and yet you’re still struggling and floundering. And if there were legitimate red flags,Brandon and I would be kind of talking to you in a different direction than ifthere was actually legitimate trust that’s being re rebuilt, but you’re still struggling between this place ofanger and sadness. Right? And so kind of what I’m getting at is isif you kind of look at it from a highlevel view and then you also take the feel of recovery that’s going onbetween the two of you and maybe even that you’re feeling from your partner.Does that feel legitimate? Does it actually feel safer? Does it feel like there’s progress being made or or areyour feelings kicking off because there’s actually still a bunch of red flags? Um, I think thatI would say it’s a little bit of both and because the in between times of whatI would consider relapse, um, he has a different opinion and of course I thinkmy opinion is right, but in the in between times of the relapses is likesolid. There’s trust being rebuilt, there’s safety being rebuilt. Um, and Isee, you know, the silver lining. I see the hope in it. Um, and I can start totrust a little bit. But the second that, um, another, in my opinion, relapsehappens happens, um, that, you know, jarof trust marbles is poured out again. And so I think it’s a little bit of both and where um I can’t ever getemotionally grounded because you get knocked down again. You get knocked down again, you know, and so it’s like we’reclimbing up this mountain that we can never really make any progress onbecause of the relapse. Mandy, what’s the difference in opinion? Um, so if we’re just getting reallypractical, um, checking out a woman in a public place,that’s a relapse to me. Um, just because of the boundaries that we’ve agreed upon in our relationship. But for him, hewouldn’t necessarily classify it as a relapse. He would say, how does how does the disclosure godown? Like, do you catch him doing that or so if so he doesn’tSo you catch him looking at a woman and and he doesn’t like say, “Hey, I checkedher out.” Or it doesn’t go that that way. No, it doesn’t go that way, but on theback end. So it’s never like in the moment. I’m not like, “Hey, what the heck? You just looked at her.” But it’s on the back end. We get home. Hey, Ineed to talk to you. I saw you checking out another woman. and he’ll say, “Yeah,you know, I I felt myself do it. I I wondered about it, blah, blah, blah.” And so, we’ll talk about it in thatmoment, but um it’s not I I don’t reallyknow how he views it, but I don’t think he would view it as a relapse. Okay. So, but in your mind, you view itas a relapse. Yeah, I do because I think that umwhen you get down the the road of lust, it’s just it’s a slippery slope, youknow, and so it’s like I don’t know if for me things are so black and white and I think a little bit more gray for him,which is understandable, you know, he he’s the addict and I don’t know what that’s like. Um, butwhen it’s, you know, in this relationship and the boundaries that we’ve agreed upon as a couple,what what are those boundaries, Mandy? Um, I mean, it’s definitely not checkingother women out. Okay. Um, it’s not, you know, it’s notcommunicating with other women oneon-one. It’s umwhen he’s checking out other women, do you I know this is getting annoying. I’m and I’m getting meticulous with this.No, it’s okay. But I I’m trying to go somewhere with this. Um when he is like what is whatconstitutes that? Is it like seeing a beautiful woman that he thinks is beautiful or is it like his eyes lingerand you know what what is lust? Like what at what point is he lusting? Is he breaking that boundary? Um,I think, um, I wouldn’t call him like gawking at another woman. Um,but he’s definitely looking too long to the point where it’s noticeable to meand probably, you know, somebody else in the room. Um, and I think that it itcrosses over into lust when you can’t just glance p past a person and say,”Oh, wow, that’s a good-looking human.” Who’s defining that? I I guess here here’s some things asyou’re talking about this, Mandy. I think you’re set up for failure between the two of you. Um, you have these theseboundaries in place, but the definitions aren’t that clear. And and they’re alsolike a lot of it resides within him. And so you’re not going to trust him unlessyou can trust that he alone can manage himself. Right. Right. So if if your eyes are managinghis eyes and then thinking what he he’s thinking or how far is he taking it or whatever, then you’re always going to becaught in this state of he’s he’s betraying me. He’s you know, and hemight be Mandy. I’m not saying that he’s not, but I’m not saying that he is. And I think both of you don’t really knowexactly whether he is or not. He’s saying he’s not. You’re saying that he is.And so betrayal will will like it’ll feel like it hits again and again andagain until until something shifts here. Um I’m I’m actually glad we went down this road. I think this is actuallyreally important. Um, but it’s going to take a shift in the system a little bitfor both of you and a shift in the the paradigm on what trust building actuallyis between the two of you. Um, and and we can get into that further, but do doyou see what I’m saying? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um, I think it’s a lotmore nuanced than I would like it to be. Mhm. Umand to the point of like I don’t know if I would necessarilyI mean yeah actually right I do feel betrayed in that so I’m not going to even you feel that way right? Yeah.Yeah. And he’s saying I’m not betraying you. This isn’t a relapse. So then it’s likeokay then what like what’s actually going on here? Um yeah. I mean, I don’t think he’s likehappy about it. He’s not proud of it. He’s embarrassed of it, but I don’t think he would use the word relapse forit. Yeah. Are there any thoughts on this?Yeah, a couple couple of thoughts actually to go along with this. And then I want to make sure we don’t get lost on this too far, even though I think thiswill apply to the original question. U because Brandon, where you’re going at is is that the original question isbeing amplified by the way they’re handling this with each other. Um, so, so the first thought I had is this makesit even harder if you know what Brandon’s talking about is you said thiswhen you were kind of checking in, Mandy, you said he kind of did recovery,he kind of did a 12step program, he semi-engaged in therapy, he went for a few months,we did a little bit of both. Um there’s a lot of ambiguity in your mind at leastabout the commitment of your husband’s recovery overall. Definitely. Yeah. Right. And so and so because you don’thave that sort of inner sense or feeling that man, like I’ve got a partner who who betrayed me, figured his crap out,went all in, did whatever it takes to restore trust. It’s a lot easier now to take thissituation that Brandon’s talking about and go like, “Ah, this is another one of those places where I’m not sure. I don’t know if he’s in or out like on this ornot. Yeah, absolutely. And so, so of course it’s going to amplify itself up and it’s going to keep coming up becauseit doesn’t feel like even in 3 years there’s probably been little moments of progress, but you haven’t felt the senseof like, and I’m not saying this is on you or him all the way, it’s on both of you, butyou haven’t felt the sense of commitment in his recovery. Correct. Yeah. To be able to trust like, okay, hey, hemight hit some bumps in the road, but I know he’s all in. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.Right. Could I add on to that a little bit and tell me if I’m off on this, Mandy, butso the ambiguity in his recovery doesn’t feel very stable, like he’s choosing you, like you’re safe with a man who’sthere’s fidelity there. You throw on top of that that you’ve had three babies in three years, includingtwins. Your body has been torn apart. Yeah. Yeah. Um like literally and um you’ve gonethrough so much changes in your own life and just wondering like am I beingchosen? Am am I am I the one that he wants? Um so on there’s two sides to thefence. There’s on his side of the fence there’s is he actually working recovery?on your side of the fence, like you’re going through all this stuff and you’re just you’re trying to survive and feellike you’re good enough and chosen through all of that. You throw that all together and his eyes lingering onanother woman can be extremely triggering um and extremely difficult to deal with.Um, and at the same time there’s a liketrust is built on. Do you know what trust is built on? Well, uh,what’s like the main ingredient, the main thing? Honesty.You nailed it. Yeah. So, it’s honesty. It’s on It’s on facing reality and beinghonest with reality, right? So, if you guys go out to dinner or whatever and hesees a beautiful woman and you see you notice the beautifulwoman too and you say, and I don’t know if you do this or not, but is shebeautiful? What should he do?Um, look at the crown and say no thank you. But that’s not what he was asked,right? Yeah, but I mean I will say that’s definitely not our dynamic. I’m not, youknow, cuz that’s I’m setting it up for failure. Well, when you when you come home and you say, “Did you notice I I I did you Isaw you noticing that woman. Did you notice her?” And he’ll say, “Yeah.” Or but but butit’s in a it’s not in a in a strength-based way of honesty. It’s like, “Uhoh, I’m in trouble now. We’rein this dynamic together. you’re triggered and and so this is where like the definition of lust does matterand also your understanding of healthy sexuality on his side and your side isvery important. same with him for him to know where you can come to the table and say yeah like here’s the realityum I love you I choose you um you you are my personand I did not I mean that woman walked in in that dress I think we both noticed her um as she walked in but I you know Idid turn my eyes away and I got focused back on you and that’s what I wanted todo now if he didn’t do that then honestly would be, yeah, all night longI focused on her and that’s a problem and I’m not managing my sexuality in away that I want to to be your husband. But the reality is is I we both noticedher. She’s beautiful. Um, and I didn’t do a very good job at harnessing that inand dealing with that on my own, right? versus this dynamic of you guys comingtogether, he’s in trouble, you’re triggered, like that’s going to keep you stuck in this state because what’s goingon inside of you emotionally, you’re being told that I’m not safe. I’m not safe. And so you’re triggered into thispain of sadness, grief, fear, all those things again and again and again.And you’re in this hyperarousal state. And unless this system shifts, you’ll stay there and you won’t be able tofully be vulnerable with him. Yeah. Right now, that’s hard. That’s a hardthing to to see, right? So, Mandy, what are you thinking as I’m saying this? Yeah. I mean, everything you’re saying,I’m just like, yes, yes, yes. That’s it. You know, just that um I always tell himlike I feel like I’m stuck in like the fight or flight. Um, I cannever fully let my shoulders down. Andhe’s stuck in freeze because he’s terrified of me and he’s terrified ofdoing anything wrong to the point where I’m out, you know,and so, yeah, we’re definitely stuck in that dynamic that you’re explaining. Andum yeah, I don’t know how to get out.I I think we’re part of the pathway through potentially is what Brandon’stalking about a little bit, which is where both of you lean a little bit more intothe valuing of getting honesty into the reality of our situation and thenworking from there. Um even though it’s painful, it’s it’s actually hard. It hurts. You know, Brandon’s talking. Ihad this happen right at the beginning of my own recovery. We, you know, a few few month pro, it’s probably few yearsinto recovery. We went to out to dinner together and we’re sitting next to each other across from the table enjoyingeach other’s company finally after like all of the horrible stuff. And somebody comes through the line, this woman,really beautiful woman, wearing a white tank top with no bra, just like andshe’s standing by the drink machine like I’m here, my wife’s here, and this woman is standing like like just like right ateye level. It’s just like, oh gosh. Like and I’m on the inside. I’m like dying like oh no. Like dang it. Like and thenI can see my wife kind of like grimacing and she’s telling me something. I’m just like trying to lock in and visit withher. that that woman goes by and my wife goes, “Tyler, did you notice that woman?” And I go, “Yeah, of course Idid.” And she’s like, “Do you think she was beautiful?” “Yeah, she was really pretty. Did you see that she wasn’twearing a bra?” “Yep, I saw that, too, babe.” And she sat there for a second,and I could see stuff turnurning on the inside. And then she looked across the table from me, and she said, “Thank youfor being here with me.” Right? She didn’t like it. And I got tosay, “Hey babe, I know that’s really hard. It’s hard on both of us. Like, I’m sad that because of what’s happened inthe past, even coming out to dinner takes this kind of work.” Yeah.Right. But but to see her do that work and then to have me meet her with thatwork, that that’s the reality of our situation. That’s the work that we’re currentlydoing. And she can trust that I’m going to do the work and I see her doing that work.Yeah. Um, but it’s based in the reality now instead of some kind of, you know, like you said, he’s freezing and belike, “Oh, what woman?” Like, “There’s no woman.” Like, yeah. And you’re like, “That’s what I want to hear, but I know that that’s not true.”Right. Right. And then you’re never going to trust him. Right. Um, you you will trust him if he’shonest and and if you can trust that that’s where he’s at in his work right now. So, he’s this isn’t where he wantsto stay. He’s learning he’s learning to bridle and harness all that power insideof him to the places that are going to yield the best fruit. And he hasn’t figured it out yet.Mhm. Um that’s hard to hear, but you’d rather have the honesty of that with the workhappening than to be lied to constantly. For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think onething that um you said, Brandon, really stuck out to me is like I don’tnecessarily know if I can trust him to manage himself as far as recovery goes.And so even, you know, in his mind something might be like a huge win. Hemight be, you know, three steps down the road and in my mind it’s like nothing’shappening. you know, what I see from the outside. Yeah. And I, you know, I can’t force him to dorecovery work. I can’t force him to be honest. And so, um, but but Mandy, what you’re what you’reexplaining is like, and if you can follow me here, it h it has everythingto do with the healthy polarity of the masculine and the feminine and and andhow trust is built. A woman wants a man who is steady and strong independent ofher. A a man who has purpose and direction and integrity and will makethose choices regardless of whether he’s married or his wife’s watching his eyesor not, right? Um that’s what a woman wants. She needs to know that in times of child birth andand having babies that he’s going to stay around, that he’s going to stay strong, that he’s going to choose her,that he’s going to take care of things and protect and provide. That’s what a woman wants to know, right? So, so whatI’m hearing from you is like, I have to step up and make sure that I’m safe and I have to step up and make sure that I’mokay. And so, you’re in a way taking on a masculine role to make sure that everything’s steady and safe. And thenhe’s coming around and like telling on himself or Yeah. Like or that’s not a relapse or that. So So there there’slike there’s like nothing. Your foundation is jello. It’s like nothingness there. And so then you’relike ah so so you want a man to step up to take charge of his own recovery to beproactive in that recovery. If you come to him and you say you lusted after that woman and he knows that he didn’t deep insideinstead of getting defensive he wouldn’t get defensive. Do you know what he would do?Um, hopefully try to like be present with me and see why I think that.That’s it. He’d connect back to you because he’d know in his center, in his soul, he’s okay.Yeah. And you would feel that from him and you would know that he didn’t lust justbecause you’d feel it. You’d know it. You’d that would be just real to you.Yeah. Um, that’s what’s missing. So, for sure. So, we need to take a step back and itcomes back to what Tyler was saying earlier, this ambiguity of recovery.It’s on both of your sides, Mandy. Honestly, you you’ve you have to havesome boundaries with yourself around managing him. And he’s going to be uncomfortable with this. And so are you.But instead of managing him in order for you to feel safe, you need to say, “Okay, for me, for Mandy, what do I needto do for me to feel the safest that I possibly can in a relationship withsomebody who’s not totally safe right now? What do I do to work my recoveryum and focus on me and what’s in my control?” And then you hand over to him.You go do your work, buddy. Go become that type of man that I deserve and that I need in order for meto feel safe. And I’m not going to do that work for you. And can you can you see the vulnerability here? Can you seethe space of of of like discomfort? Yeah.That space is where the the hard work really resides and where you start toactually realize like, oh, he is making strides. we are getting safer togetheror you’re going to realize the the opposite of that and so it’s scary.So what what do you think about what I’m saying? Yeah, it definitely makes meuncomfortable. Um but I I I agree that it’s true.Um I don’t want to have to managesomebody. Um, and at the same time,I’m terrified that he won’t do it. Yeah. And what does that mean for us? Yes.What does that mean for our family? So, it’s a hard reality to face forsure. Yeah. You’re getting right to the crux of it though, Mandy, now is is that you don’t trust that he will do the work tofight for you. And that’s what keeps you hanging in there doing the work for him or trying to make sure you’re hammeringthe work into him. But but the price that you have to pay to do that is tothen never trust him. So then that’s why that’s why then you feel these things back and forth of likethe anger and then the sadness and because something inside of you kind of knows that.Yeah. That that that the anger and the sadness is the manifestation of the actual lackof trust in him. Uhhuh. Right. And and and it’s a setup for bothof you guys because you’ll be able to probably cling to the relationship this way and it will have a ceiling for itsconnection. You’ll be able to hold on to a bad relationship and lie to yourself that hehe kind of sort of once in a while a few months at a time fights for you.Um, and you’ll be able to not have to face all the things that are real big thingsthat you just said, which are like he may what if he didn’t choose you? Mhm. Oh man, that’s got that’s loadedlogistically. That’s loaded emotionally. So, it makes sense. It makes sense that you’ve got that fear and that you’reclinging to it. But the trap is that the man you want to be with is a man whowould choose you. And I would bet if we asked him, he wants to be with the woman who chooseshim. And now you’re both playing a game where you’re both trapped into the relationship because you’re settling foryou’re in a sense you’re settling for the mess of pottage instead of fighting for the birthright. Mhm.Um and and the birthright’s scary. Like it’s really really scary. It it comeswith the legitimate things that you’re talking about. So it makes sense. That’s why this is so hard. Mhm.Mandy, can you give me some advice? I have a a scenario. I I want you to give me a little advice. Can I get throw itpast you here? Sure. It’s a real life scenario for me. Um and it it applies to you. So, so I’ve donetherapy for years. I’ve done I did I used to do 30 hours a week with groupson top of that. Um and for years and years and years untilum I got so completely burned out that um like it was really affecting mymarriage. Uh it was affecting my my physical health. Um I was breaking downand I realized that I’m not like Tyler. Tyler Tyler’s an Iron Man. I call him the Iron Man. Um but I I it’s just Iwasn’t made to do that forever. And um so let this past year I sold mybusiness and like I’m I’m rearranging things and I’m figuring things out and I’m in asituation where I I have an opportunityum to to do something big and I feel called to it. I feel like it’s it’s anexciting good thing. Um but I have to lay it all on the line. Like I there’s alot there’s a lot of risk to it. tons of it. I could lose I could lose everything. Umum or I could go back to just I filling up my case load and doing therapy again.I can support my family. Um I can I can do therapy. Umwhat should I do? Go for it. Take the risk.Why? It’s so much safer to do therapy. like I I can I can pay the bills. I canso much safer to do that. So why would I go for it?Uh I think that um nobody wants to livea mediocre life um in any aspect whether that’s yourcareer or your marriage or your family or um who you are as a person. And so,uh, yeah, I mean, I I think it’s evident that you would live a life of regret andsettling for what’s easy and what’s safe andYeah. Yeah. And and the other side of it too, Mandy, if you if you really look at this, if I played it safe, playing itsafe is not actually like protecting me. It’s actually going to kill me.Like, it’s going to it’s going to take me out. You’ll just have a stroke, high bloodpressure, something. Yeah. Like, it’ll it’ll ruin my relationships. Like, it really it’llit’ll it would kill me. It’ll just do it slowly. Yes. Slow. The slow burn of itbecause I’m too afraid to to go for it. Um and and for that’s what I want you tothink about, Mandy, for you of I’m scared to do this. I’m scared that he won’t choose me. I’m scared that hewon’t do the work. I hate to put it in his hands, but when you put it back in your hands that you’re taking yourselfout. You’re you’re burned out right now, Mandy. you’re it’s been it’s been yearsnow and you’re tired and you’re depressed and that won’t change as long as this dynamic that we’ve talked aboutstays in place. So, you’re between a rock and a hard place. But to me to methere’s one clear shot to take here just like just like you were with me, Mandy. You you gave me great advice. Let me askyou, let me ask you, Mandy, like, do you believe that you deserve to be in a relationship with somebody who choosesin with you? Absolutely. Yeah. Then treat yourself that way. Andyou don’t you don’t have to beg for him to choose. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not You don’t have to force yourself that way. And part of howyou treat yourself that way is you actually in some ways surrender his recovery to him. And he will either bethe man who grows in to actually choosing you or he will funnel himselfout and it’ll open space for someone to actually choose you because that’s the life you deserve. That’s the life youwere designed for. You don’t have to settle.Now that might mean divorce. That might mean after having three young kids, yourfamily gets torn apart. Right? So, so this is where what Tyler said is great.I I hear though, Brandon, between the lines, I if I was a betting man, if if Mandy treated herself like shedeserves to be chosen in a relationship, and that included surrendering some of his garbage,um, it sounds to me like there’s a pretty there’s pretty good odds that that guy, he’s doing just enough that hewould probably do just a bit more. But I agree. I totally agree. But we don’t know. We don’t we don’t know.There’s there’s no guarantees on that. We’ll never know. We’ll never know as long as Mandy is stepping in and likeand and like forcing him and t and taking care of his recovery. Like we don’t know. And so we got to face all ofthe realities in order for us for for you Mandy to back off and see. And and I hope his butt ends upin one of our groups. And I hope he comes out to our retreat and we will we will like get him going. Like recoveryis there. It’s possible. Um but maybe maybe not. I think that um of course, you know, thethe extreme idea of like divorce and our family breaking up is obviously scary.It’s not like what I would choose or what I want. But when it like in the weeds of it, Iguess my question is like what does that actually look like to separate that space? So liketo not necessarily give like a an ultimatum of like hey you either workrecovery or I’m out. It’s like that can look so nuanced in the weeds of it. Andso what does that look like as a dayto-day thing to say like hey I’mtaking my hands off but like here are my boundaries. You know,Tyler, I’m sure you have answers here. Oh, no. I’ll just give one example of that. Like, and this is like I can stillI can still value myself, right? I want to when I go out in public with my partner, I want to go out in publicknowing that my partner is still choosing in with me, right? So, there’s going to be a little bit of flex and middle ground for the the room of thework. Mhm. But you might go out there and and and see whatever that you know that triggersyou and you know it’s probably triggering him and you might say, “Hey, I are you here with me or do you want to go that direction,right?” And if he’s like, “Oh, oh yeah, I’m here.” Like, “Okay, cool. Keep going on with your day.” But if he’s like, “No, no, just a minute. Like, let me letme I forgot something down the aisle that that woman just walked through. Like, I’ll go I’m going to go grab something.” Right? Then you might say tohim, “This is more about you than him. Hey, I want to be here with somebody who’s present with me. And if you want to go do that, I guess you can do that.But I’m gonna take the car keys and head out. Like find find your own ride home. Right. I’m gonna I’m gonna take care ofmyself, but I’m not gonna manage you. Okay. Right. And that’s that’s a kind of a ana public example, but you it it’s about what do I need to keep myself grounded and treating myself likeI like I just said, I believe that I’m here with someone. I want to be with someone who chooses to be present withme. And then there’ll be room for that flex that’s that you guys are working on right now. And then and then you’ll makeyour choices instead of hammering away at him on his choices.Yeah. I I I would back way off of the the like are you lusting or are you not?And and what I would focus on if I were you, I would have I would have some pretty strong boundaries for yourselfaround managing his sexuality. And and so like I’m not going to I’m notgoing to like follow his eyes. I’m not going to ask him. I’m not you you Mandy, you need to go into two things. Yourobservation mode of him. And and what you’re observing is not so much his actions and behaviors. You’re observinghis energy. How does he feel to you? Does he feel like a trustworthy man? Umis is he being Now you are watching. Is he being proactive in his recovery? Um,does he go out of his way to be honest or does he go out of his way to be dishonest? You’re just observing. That’sall you’re doing. That’s it. You’re not like, “Where were your eyes? Did you work your recovery? Did you do this?” You’re just watching. You’re justwatching and seeing. And then your rec the other the other side of it is focus on your recovery. And this is what Tylerwas talking about is if if you’re observing that you’re not feeling safe,then you ask yourself for you, what does it mean for you to be empowered to take care of you, your self-care? Hey, I needto go to an extra group. I need to spend this money on therapy. Um, I need you to watch the babies so that I can go to thegym and just get a jog in because I just need I need this right now. Um, becauseI need to be empowered. I need to feel alive. I need to feel like I can move forward in my life no matter what withor without you. As long as I have that um I can focus there. And as I observehis recovery, you’re going to come back to him and not say, you know what, sleep in the sleep on the couch cuz I watchedyour eyes. You’re going to come back to him and say, I need safety. I needtrust. You’re not providing it. So, we need to address that.and and so what do we do from here? What’s your plan? And if he comes back with no safety or no trust, then youstart to have these boundaries that these healthy boundaries will will start to destroy your unhealthy relationship.As you have those boundaries, he might step up and like Tyler said, he might come and be like, “Okay, it’s time.”Right? But do you see what I’m saying? Like back off of of of like the the lust and the eyes and focus on Mandy’srecovery. Focus on your boundaries and just watch and see. Observe him. FeelYeah. And feel what what he’s doing. And then be honest with yourself about what it is. And if you’re not feeling safe,don’t come back to you’re still lusting. Come back to I need I need recovery. I need honesty,empathy, empathy, and consistency. Like that’s what I need from a man. You’re not providing it.This is what I’m going to need to do. Right? Mhm. Do Do you see the difference there?Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s Yeah, Mandy, we went in a slightly differentdirection than I think any of us anticipated. I hope this will be helpful to you, especially when you listen to itback again. Um, thank you so much for your willingness to come on and chatwith us today. Um, before we hang hang up the call today, is there anything else on your mind or heart? Where areyou at emotionally? Um, I will say I definitely feel a littlebit more peace. Um, and trust in myselfto do what’s right even when it’s hard. Yeah. Mandy, youone I just want to say you’re a you’re a hero. A mother of twins. Like holy cow.I you are amazing. And then you had another one basically triplets.So, you can do hard you can do hard things and and uh and we got your back. Like, if wecan support you, we have resources. We have groups. We have You can’t do this just on your own. And you’ve you’vetapped into some good resources. Sounds like you have some good support. Um but if you do what you’ve always done,you’re going to get what you’ve always gotten. So, new education, good support,um a new way of looking at things. You got this, Mandy. you you can do this. So,thank you for coming on. Thank you for your vulnerability. It’s it’s people like Mandy that make this show great. And so, if youappreciate her vulnerability and her willingness to come on, um get in the reviews and and leave her a little noteand just shout her out. And until next time, keep on keeping on.