I’ve Experienced Betrayal In My Marriage… Should I Attend Group?

2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We’re starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn’t like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you’re getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess. What a deal. So, we if you’re interested, if you’re struggling, if you’ve been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we’re also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you’re a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you’re saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That’s exactly what I’m saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don’t come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It’s beyond therapy, the best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. I’ve experienced betrayal in my marriage. Should I attend group?What’s up you guys? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I’m Brandon. I’m Tyler. We’re brothers.We’re therapists. We’re not afraid of your questions. So bring it.[Music]It’s a great question. Um, before we answer that question andintroduce our guest we got today, um, I’m going to read a quick review here. So, it says, “Amazing info. Love thispodcast. I originally found Brandon on his other podcast, and I really enjoy Tyler’s perspective. the more personalexamples. Um, and that while some of their ad advice is very betrayal and addiction related, not all of it is. Uh,today’s episode is their advice helps so much for everyday situations, too. Sograteful for the effort they put in. Thank you for helping me take the steps toward living a better, healthier life.Awesome. Thank you for your reviews. We appreciate them. It’s a way that we kind of continually try to change our show tomake it better and also help reach more people. So really appreciate you sharing that. And the the reason I mean Tyler and Ispecialize betrayal, trauma, sex addiction. The reason we we go there a lot is because that’s a lot of thequestions that we get. That’s that’s probably like 80% of the questions that we get every week. So that’s why we have a lot of thosetopics. But we’re very open to questions about anything else as well. So yeah. Well, Brandon, we missed a week.Uh it sounds like you were out of town. Um yeah, I was freezing in the mountains uhwhile the kids had fun. All all the adults sat there like when is this going to end? And the kids were like let’s letthis go on forever. So I was up at the mountains and it was a cold front came through and it was windy and but it wasit was good. The kids had a good time. So good. Excellent. And I was I was gone so that’s why we didn’t get an episode out.We have it’s end of the year. It’s our oldest daughter graduated from high school this year. So we were kind ofwrapped up with all of those things. And boy Brian I tell you what, man. You have these moments in life where youkind of get these snapshots and realize, “Wow, life sometimes moves a lot faster than we think it’s moving.”You’re an old man. You got a graduate. You’re an old fart. I know. I know. I’m Louise.I’m an old man. It’s it’s funny because I sit and watch my daughter kind of going through this process and you can’thelp but have these snapshot memories of the time she was a little girl, you know, playing in the sandbox or going tothe park or um it’s it’s really funny how quickly those things move. So,um anyway, uh let’s should we jump into this today? Yeah, let’s do it. All right. I’m excited. I’m excited for thisepisode today because we have an awesome guest who’s been willing to come on our show today. His name is Daniel Burgess.He’s a master’s and licensed marriage and family therapist and he specializes in sex sexuality and relationships. He’salso worked as a consultant in Silicon Valley as well as volunteered within the community in various different roles.He’s a blogger, speaker, and author of Reconciling Our Divine Sexual Identity.He also runs an engaging informative Facebook group which I’m actually have been on before and I’m a part of. Uhit’s dismissing or sorry not dismissing discussing marriage and sexuality in let’s not dismiss it.That’s the opposite of my goal. Yeah. Exactly. In fact in fact you’re doing you’re doing in many ways you’redoing the opposite of that. In fact you’re bringing to light many different things. And it’s called improving intimacy in Latter-day Saintrelationships. And uh in many ways, you know, Daniel is uh you know, Brandon andI, we both feel like we’re sort of on the front lines of something that we’ve really have a lot of passion for. And inmany ways, Daniel is right there on the front lines engaged in in this samearena and area of of trying to help people. So, Daniel, thank you so muchfor coming on the show with us today. Um we’re gonna we’re gonna just kind ofstart. This is a question that’s been posed by me in several posed by clients to me in several different ways in thelast few weeks. And I think that Daniel’s going to have a really good perspective on this to also discuss. Ihad a client just a couple of days ago come to me. It’s a man who’s trying to kind of work on some recovery frombetrayal they’ve had, you know, a couple of affairs that have gone on in the relationship. And he came to me.He he Tyler, he betrayed her. He he betrayed her. Okay. So he betrayed her and she hassince just barely started coming to like group for betrayal traumaand he came to me and he said, “Hey Tyler, I’m I’ve got a concern because Ikind of feel like maybe the group is doing more harm than good. I’m afraid that she’s just coming to group andshe’s just kind of getting, you know, fed full of how much of a victim she is and they’re feeding her anger and herfrustration and and it almost feels like it’s pushing us in the wrong direction. And so the question today that I want todiscuss is really for betrayal trauma to group or not to group and uh and whatwhat would be the benefits pros and cons of doing a betrayal trauma group if I’ve experienced betrayal in my in myrelationship in my marriage. You want me to take it off from there? Hey, go for it, Dan.That’s a great question. So, the first thing I want to recognize is uh stereotypicallywomen are the ones who are experiencing uh betrayal trauma. So, I want to recognize first of all, we got three men here discussing something that womentypically experience. Um and and I want to kind of break that stereotype alsobecause uh a couple so I’m going to approach this a couple different ways. First I’m going to answer yes absolutelyas as both of you know full well we never want to be in isolation especially through traumatic periods in our life.We want to find commonality and find support and strength. Uh and so thatquestion is a wonderful one and I would say the answer is yes. We want to have a support network. I do have a caveatthere and I’ll come come back around to that but I want to hit on the first point. I was excited that you at first I thought you were talking about a man whohad experienced betrayal because this actually happens a whole lot morethan society and we as therapists uh I think recognize generally uh and wedon’t support them. Uh in fact there’s a very powerful underlying uh what am Itrying to say there? um kind of this this idea that betrayal only happens to women. And there are actualorganizations out there that really promote that. No, men cannot experience betrayal. Um and and they foster thisthis idea that they’re the sex fiend. They’re the they’re the you know umhormone induced people who can’t control themselves. And there’s that narrative there. Uh and I’m not trying to speak inhyperbole, but this is this is what clients are bringing to me. And I have a have many husbands who are coming to meand saying I’m hurting. I don’t know where to go and I’m told I’m not allowed to hurt.And I’m I’m talking about husbands who’ve been betrayed. Uh but let’s come back to we we could discuss more aboutabout that, but I thought that’s an important idea. Daniel, Daniel, before we go on to the to our other question, umwhy do you think that is? Why why do you think that it’s we we jump quickly totreating betrayal for women? Um and men don’t it gets dismissed because we see thesame thing. Yeah. I see it all the time. Yeah. Well, I I think that’s our faultto be honest. Uh we we have been men speaking uh speaking of men um have beenthe ones who kind of decided how sexuality should be throughout history and how that should be displayed. Andalso we got this very powerful male stereotype. You know, you got to just,you know, buck up and deal with it. Deal with it. And uh it’s life. Um we’renot allowed to hurt. We’re not allowed to cry. We’re not allowed to experience pain. Um and if we do, we’re we’resometimes, you know, I’m kind of buying into that trope a little, but it plays out pretty powerfully in men’s lives, whether they speak about it or not. Um,it’s it’s a it’s a paralyzing and invisible experience. And I I want to beclear here for for especially the women who are listening who’ve experienced betrayal. I am no way comparing you knowwhat I there’s no way to you know understand exactly what you’re going through. But men are left alone in this experience.And uh I can’t tell you how many times men have been betrayed over and over andthen they get angry and then they’re they’re they’re accused of being angry, not being able to have uh you knowpatience or be able to be calm. And so when they’re acting out their trauma, they’re beat up more for it and they’renot allowed to speak about it. So that’s my general assessment of it. Yeah. And I would agree with you. Imean, I see it exactly what you’re saying and my experience is that um andit’s because of some of the things you said is that women generally are more likely to seek outtreatment and help and kind of drag their husband to treatment if they’ve been betrayed.Whereas men don’t. me men kind of want to stuff it and say they’re okay and getover it and and so so we don’t hear about betrayal of men nearly as much as we do the otherway around. And so then then it turns into this kind of this paradigm of likewell yeah like 90% of betrayal is men betraying women and and I don’t I don’tI know that’s not the case yet in my world that’s what I see all all daylong. Right. So yeah, I’m glad you brought this up. Yeah, I think Yeah, I I think that I wasjust Brandon, I was thinking of the story that when we were children, kind of to what Daniel’s point is is do youremember being down at grandma’s house the day that our cousins, we had Britney and Ashton, our cousins, and uh Britneysnuck up behind Ashton with this big wooden thing and she like clubbed him in the back of the head and then he ofcourse like went crazy like oh like ah dad. He went and went furious and thenwhat happened is his dad came in and who got in trouble. Yeah, he he did.Dad said you shouldn’t have provoked. said he said you shouldn’t have provoked her and you just got you just got beat up by a girl and you know he he shamedhim for having been basically in a in a certain sense blindsided and uh and andthat’s just that’s just an example of like I think what the culture kind ofsays and that’s why we probably I mean we see it in our offices Brandon but it gets spoken kind of behind closeddoors after things have like after a relationship has been developed and after we like have real trust with them,then they feel safe enough to say, “Hey, by the way, this is happened to me.” Um, but we don’t we don’t get it as much aswe do with women. I legitimately years ago I had I had these clients and um they were comingbecause he was masturbating and looking at porn and they they were coming for like a year and a half and like a yearand a half into it, she said, “Well, you know, I like I look at porn and masturbate all the time, too.” You know,and it’s interesting because I’m like, “Oh, we’re we’re focused on his behavior. We’re focused on what he’sdoing, and oh, by the way, this is happening with for her, too. Oh, by that that’s an oh, by the way,you know.” Yep. I I I love that you brought that up. That is something I see so frequently, and I think that’s myconcern. So when we talk about getting support, uh just like anything, uh whether you have cancer, betrayal,trauma, or any other type of traumatic experience in your life, or gosh, evenADHD support groups, I think they’re all valuable. Where I get concerned is howwe define and measure success. Often I see this is where things go ary. um andthat there’s a lack of clarity and these groups sometimes become a fostering ofthe trauma. And I see exactly what you’re talking about. They they tend todefine things in very specific ways that make it unacceptable for men to have sexual urges and desires, but perfectlyacceptable for women to have sexual desires. So I I’ll have wives who willopenly acknowledge, yeah, I will watch this sensual movie because it just it it’s exciting to me. And then so theseare actual real um I’m keeping it vague, but real real statements to me where,you know, he he saw a movie and it had a nudie. He he had no idea was in thereand um he slipped, right? It’s defined as a failure and he has to now gorepent. he has to go, you know, start over, whatever his process is. And sothere there’s this disparity on how we measure success, how we identify a problem. Um, and and again, I want to bevery clear. I I think I have to be because I get a lot of push back on, well, you you’re just retraumatizingpeople. And that that’s another phrase that I hear a lot is when we try to introduce success, um, it’s perceived asminimizing people’s trauma. And that’s those are the issues where I get concerned and I want feedback as I’mworking with clients. Are are you a happier relationship? Is things getting better? How are you measuring success?Um and how do we know it’s working? How do we not know what’s working? And thoseare the questions I think are important to ask. It’s so here’s a couple kind of examples and thoughts. Um you know, when she’slike enjoying Outlander and and watching There you go.that that’s okay. That’s okay. And it’s like it’s like, oh yeah, like she’s, you know, she’s kindof it’s kind of exploring her sexuality a little bit and enjoying Outlander and whatever. Um, but if you know, if hewere watching Outlander by himself, uh, it could be a big problem. And it’s interesting. I I love I love Finlay andF. Jennifer Finlay. I love her. She’s great. Um, and it’s really interesting what what her niche is and what herplatform is, which is empowering LDS women to be sexual. Andit’s interesting like um if if I I know where you’re going with this.Yeah. If I became the her for men for for men of like, hey, be more sexual.explore your sexuality and explore yourself and it would it could very much trigger a lot of things and it could belooked at as bad and that shouldn’t happen. Um and and uh and I don’t thinklike I Daniel I think this like when we look at betrayal itselfum there’s the there’s the sexual piece of it the the the doing whatever you doright but there’s this there’s this thing about sexuality that I think is kind of misunderstood which isthat I am a sexual being and I have my sexuality and Um, and my spouse, whetherI’m a man or a woman, they want me to stay faithful. They they want their mateto be faithful with them, right? Yes. And so so does my sexualityum jeopardize that? And and if it does, then I better stuff it. I better subdueit. I better hide it. I better not have it. And it that actually has an oppositeeffect. It has an opposite effect on trust and safety and connection in a relationshipwith with yourself and your partner. Yes, absolutely. It porn has uh damaged us asa society in ways we don’t talk about. We talk about the obvious, how it’s fake, how it’s, you know, potentiallysex trafficking and and all these other risk and dangers. But there’s an aspect of it that we never talk about. It’swhat you just brought up is um it’s teaching us to objectify men. Uh it’snot just teaching us to objectify women. We generally perceive men as you know ifthey if they had done something that is betrayal or had acted out on theirsexuality. We now look at them as this sexiending creature that’s incapable of having healthy sexual feelings. Andthat’s that’s a where did that idea come from? you you brought up a a phenomenalpoint and I I’ve tested this in my group where I’ve had uh female moderators oradmins post something very similar to what I’ve posted. Um and I will getum question and hard push back like that’s that’s that’s inappropriate. Weperceive me when it comes from men as gross or something weird. Uh but whenwomen make similar statements, it’s perceived as beautiful and brave and uhgood. And this is this is a where did this concept come from that men are not allowed or not capable of having abeautiful sexual healthy desire. And I see exactly what you’re talking about.They suppress it. I had one client who was so scared of experiencing desirethat it would lead him, you know, acting out anyway. Uh he hadn’t had sex withhis wife for 5 years. Mhm. And he never even told her that. He would wake up before her and leave theroom so he didn’t happen to see her getting undressed. And I’m like,who’s teaching them this? And how do we teach people to have healthy sexualitywhile also recovering? I think that’s important, but we’re not talking about it. Yeah, that’s a that’s a great point,Daniel. I think that that’s that’s where I think it comes back to the question about, you know, the support that you’regetting and the groups that you’re getting into. So, on one hand, you’re saying, yeah, pornography actually doesmore damage in both areas, not just objectifying women, but objectifying men. And then men become men becomevillainized and then all too often well said all all too often the man thengoes to a group that reinforces the villain and tells him to shut down his sexuality because because there’s somuch nuance in recovery and when when you’re saying, “Hey, look, I have maybemisused my sexuality in some ways and I still need to be a sexual being.” It’stoo easy to just be like, “Nope, shut it down. If you don’t act out, you’ll never mess up again. everything will be fine. And then it kind of like fosters shameagain and it continues to leave them in that position of like being being less than or one down. And it actually thenreinforces that on the betrayed side. Yes. To say to say, “Yep, like he acted outor he looked at a woman or he did this or he did that.” And and and that’s where I think a lot of these groups endup that aren’t necessarily effective is the nuance to the betrayed is is that there there actually really is becauseof the fact that there’s this bond that’s been betrayal there there really is a shaking of trust. There is anelement of trauma that happens for these people and and then they get into group and the hard part for a therapist Ithink is how do you validate the pain and the traumaand and at the same time try to help foster moving through that and findinghealing and being able to lean back into trust eventually. Yes. And that’s hard to navigate for a lot ofpeople. So it then becomes on the betrayed side, it’s just like, yep, everything he did was abusive and youjust you just hold the line and put a big wall up and never do anything. And then and then they never get betterbecause they get stuck in that place of what used to be validation for the trauma becomes almost enablement to stayin the trauma. Correct. Yes. Oh, I’m glad you’re saying it and not me. Yeah.this I have I have been concerned about this for some time and there are some there are definitely betrayal groups Irecommend out there um and it’s important to get that support but thisis exactly what I’ve been seeing is anything taken to an extreme ironicallyis going to be bad and I’m seeing this with the lens of betrayal trauma is it’swe start to view our partner it’s it’s type of catastrophizing and the wherewhere maybe the husband was looking at hardcore porn um over time part of hisrecovery dictated by the betrayal trauma experience is don’t get anywhere closeto that so it will become like get rid of your Instagram get rid of anything anything don’t get rid of all yourmagazines out of the house anything that could have something that could potentially trigger you so what we’ve done is we’ve reinforced this negativecycle without act and the person has essentially eliminated they become amonk in some ways and they haven’t learned how to experience life and this is where this type of treatment isdifferent from chemical dependency. It’s a big difference. We do need tohave sexual healthy sexual connection in our life. Um we can’t just eliminate it.And when you when you go down this path you create a lot of confusion and separation in the relationship. And weneed to start talking about how we can introduce more healthy I it’s it’sfrustrating because I want to write this book. I I’ve got the idea but I want to call it I didn’t marry a therapistand we we we we victimize or we villainize our partnersbecause they aren’t excellent communicators. We who ever taught us how to be excellent communicators? Our parents?No. I mean, I’m assuming in society, we haven’t learned how to do what we teachas therapists in our homes growing up. If we have, you’re a rarity. And yet,when things break down in a relationship, I I feel like I’m having to be very careful here. I want to be very clear.There’s clear difference between outright abuse and um um risky dangerousbehavior in a relationship that definitely you need to draw lines and and I’m not entertaining any idea whereuh you know I’m telling people to stay in an abusive relationship. However, we aren’t aware of how or we haven’tlearned how to have healthy relationships. So when we victimize or villainize, excuse me, our partnerbecause they didn’t know how to communicate, we call it now secrets. Wecall it now betrayal. We need to look at their past. How have they been traumatized? Have they been taught to beopen about their sexual desires growing up? Or have they been taught to hide it?Well, it’s not going to change when you get into marriage. And so when people start now accusing their their spousesof I can’t believe you hid this from me, they they talk as though it’s in a vacuum like they were the ones who werebetrayed alone. Well, no. He probably never even learned how to communicatethis. When we talk about the stereotypical men, we don’t we are not taught how to communicate. Like I say tothe being, we don’t know how to cry. We don’t know how to confess. We don’t know how to experience things. And so why dowe think they’re going to act like a therapist, the skilled communicator in this relationship?And we never even talk about that. We just reinforce how bad their behavior was. And then they’re uh punished forany time that they try to do better. You know, I I’m going to immediately confess. I can’t believe you did this.You’re horrible. They beat they don’t say things like that must have been really tough. that hurts me, but I’mvery proud of you being able to come to me immediately. I realize you’ve never had a history of being able to do that.Being able to communicate messages like that, foster trust, foster healthy relationships, allow people to recover.And that’s my biggest thing when I do treatment is I don’t expect anybody to be perfect.And what I measure is how well you recover. You’re going to slip. And I don’t want you to be so focused onfighting that slip that you don’t know how to recover. Well, so I realize I just dumped a ton ofinformation there, but it’s that’s the frustrating thing. And to your point, how do we teach this? How dowe introduce this idea without making the person who’s been betrayed feel minimized? It’s a tough question,especially coming from a male therapist. Well, I hear all the time here here’ssome some word some things that I hear and it just makes me cringe. Um, one isis there’s your addict. There’s the addict. That’s that’s your addict. Your addict. So, every time he communicatespoorly or is grumpy with the kids or, you know, is a he’s acting out is a human in many ways. There’s theaddict. And the other thing is abuse. And I I I think that calling abuse abuse is veryimportant. Call calling but but there’s both there’s two sides to that coinwhich is calling abuse abuse is important but when you call things thataren’t abuse abuse that’s that’s damaging and that’sdangerous. Very damaged. Yeah. And and so I it it it’s it’sreally interesting. I I ran a group this week and it was a group with couples in it. There was about maybe 20 couples inthere and we had a guest speaker and she was incredible and she was awesome andshe came in and um and she she’s sharing her story. She’s talking about how herhusband cheated on her with her best friend and you know pretty extreme stuff. And then she she pretty quicklygot to how she has positive regard for her husband and has compassion for hispain and and understanding for the struggle that he’s been through through his addiction his entire life. And italmost got a little bit uncomfortable in group because a lot of those people Wow. who were coming were are in thisplace of anger and yes and pain and and so and so that positiveregard for for the betrayed people in group was almost like what like what do you seethe the disconnect there yet here’s the interesting thing Danielum I’ve worked with this person for a long time and her having that love andpositive regard toward her husband that that’s not about her like her being agood person to set him free. That sets her free. That that’s a newlevel of recovery for her. That’s that’s the nuance that I think you were pointing out, Daniel. So,Brandon and Daniel both I I know right now that we have listeners who just heard everything you said and they’retaking exception to it and going for sure and going you’re you’re totally letting the addict off the hook. You’re you’regiving them excuses. Um, and yet I think the point that you’re trying to bring out is vitally important for thatreason. And I’ll just add another witness because I had something happen in one of my groups this week, too. We had a we had a male come and speak abouthow he had betrayed his wife to our group. And while he was talking, we had probably about 20 couples in there aswell. And um and one of the women raised her hand and said, “So, what were someof the things that helped you to get better in your recovery and helped you heal your relationship?” And he said heactually looked at me and he said, “I’m afraid to say this.” And I I said, “Well, go ahead and say it. Like, whatdo you need to say?” and he looked at the group and he said, “I I don’t want to diminish anybody’s pain or anybody’strauma, but my wife figured out how to let go and forgive, and it changedeverything in our relationship.” And uh and he said, “It helped motivate me to want to be a better man. It gavespace for me to go to work.” Yes. And and she suffered less as a result. Now,but but Tyler But Tyler, there is an order, right? So like if and and sittingin that pain and having validation in your pain is like if I if I have a a client comein first thing she’s been betrayed and I’m like okay if you can forgive him you can forgive everything will getbetter. She’s like and and I’ve actually heard church leaders and other therapists say things like that and Isay no like no she it’s okay for you to feel pain anger sadness frustration allthose things all those things. In fact, getting validation in those emotions is a good thing.Mhm. Right. And but there’s an and, right? And that’s where we get thatthat’s where a lot of groups and and platforms and things get stuck. They stay right there in the anger. It’salmost it’s almost like you know we talk about this a lot but like when we look at like overcoming betrayal there’s anelement of even some of the elements of the grieving process where you have thatdenial and then you have your bargaining and then you have your anger and depression and eventually you move to acceptance and and too often I thinkit’s too easy to get stuck in anger and too often the way that the groupmentality gets handled in those betrayal trauma groups it it’s limited because itdoesn’t have the next steps after the anger. And so, and so that’s where people getstuck and stay miserable. It’s the easy thing, Tyler, I’ve seen this happen. I’ve seen this happen with with some therapists I work with. It’sthe easy thing for the therapist to fall into that trap because it’s easy for me to sit and validate you and validate youand validate you. You get a lifetime client. Yeah. But they’re not getting better. Yeah. And and it’s hard to start to push like,okay, because that’s when it starts to get uncomfortable when a betrayed person is like, no, I didn’t do anything wrong.Why why do I need to change? Why do I need to do my work? Why do I need to forgive? Then we can go back to, yeah,he sucks. Like this is, but that doesn’t help them. It doesn’t help them moveforward. So, it’s easy for therapists to fall into that trap as well. Yeah. Can we can we balance can webalance the acceptance of where they’re at and validate their pain at the same time that there is a push for change?That’s the dialect that’s the dialectic of therapy and that’s the dialectic that I I believe that the best groups have whether that’s anaddiction group or a betrayal group. It doesn’t matter. It’s can I balance acceptance and change and can I fosterwhat we call the middle path which is you know there isn’t a lot of at the atthe extreme ends of things black or white usually isn’t the answer there’s there’s going to be some middle pathand I think we’re up against a couple of challenges we as as therapists in general is this increase of betramalbetramat uh boy I can’t speak today betro I’m a uhbetrayal trauma. Betrayal trauma. Boy, my mind is just not working this morning. Sorry about that. I was actually up all night withmy new pup and so I’ve only have a few hours of sleep. Anyway, uh so we we got this culturethat’s pushing this narrative, right? That’s uh we’re we’re not allowed to teach how tobe a healthy couple. Um and it minimizes pain, but that’s the nature of therapyis getting better. How do how do we motivate our clients? And so we are up against our ownuh fellow colleagues who are teaching an idea that is setting us up for failurebecause it’s communicating. There’s literal group there’s groups out there that are literally teaching. If atherapist, I want to put it in my words, challenges you to explore more healthy behaviors,they are denying you of your trauma and you need to fire them.It it’s it’s mindboggling and it’s they’re buying it and then they’ll even associate they are pro porn if they dothis. I have I have been labeled that. So, it’s a very toxic culture. And again,the the irony of it, it’s the only thing that Well, I won’t say only. It’sprobably one of the only things in our profession that we don’t encouragehealing, true healing, uh, from. We we foster this idea of,of course, it’s okay to be traumatized and and experience that. We’re not going to deny you of that. Is there a nextstep that you’re ready for? Oh, how dare you? How dare you? This is this is horrible. And the other aspect isassessment. I It was heartbreaking. II I guess I I I never want to get used to these experiences, stories, but they’re hard to listen to. Oneindividual um been in addiction recovery for five years. Five years.She’d been in betrayal trauma treatment for just as long.Not at no point in that experience did any therapist ever do an assessment.He’d been to three different ones. N not even to mention his his leadership inchurch. Um I did an assessment. The reason why hegot checked in to addiction recovery was because he IHe looked at a IMDb movie image for longer than she expectedhim that he should have done. Yeah. This guy This is This is actually notuncommon. It It’s not very common. It sounds crazy, Daniel, but it’s not uncommon. I can’t tell you how manytimes I have worked with people who’ve been in addiction recovery and theirwife has been in betrayal trauma and I’m like this I know how this is going tosound. They’re a saint. I don’t in fact this particular person never even looked at porn when he was a teenager. He justgot curious one day about this movie and he was fascinated. He he told me today he says I wasn’t even looking at herbreast. It was just I thought the movie was fascinating. I was reading up on it and she had this perception and I’veI’ve shared the story with people and in betrayal trauma and they immediately saythey go to the worst case scenario but not actually hearing what I’m saying iswe need to do better assessment. Yeah. Because you’re not treating and Daniel I have had that happen so manytimes where Okay. I’m not alone. Yeah. and and and uh you’re not treating an addiction then you’re treating ananxiety disorder. It’s there’s some form of scrupulosity. You were and and thenthere’s also anxiety on the spouse’s part as well, right? And I I looked at a movie trailer and now I’m in sexaddiction treatment for 5 years. Um there’s anxiety there. And if you don’tassess that and find that, then then you’re going to be you’re shooting at the wrong targetand wasting a lot of time and a lot of money. I I think I think I’m going to I’m goingto jump in and just kind of add to the other side of this scale a little bit to what you guys are saying just to kind ofbring some contrast as well. Um just thinking of a client I’ve had who he came to group, same thing. Um the thewhole reason he came is because for the last like five years he’s had a slip with pornography about once a year. Andum and I go, “Well, geez, like that doesn’t sound like a full-blown addiction to me at all.” Like um infact, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t even I wouldn’t even like rank that as an addiction. And yet he was there saying,”Well, it’s enough of a problem for me that I definitely want to.” Now, this is him saying it. It’s not his wife sayinghe’s an addict. He’s saying, “Hey, look, I’ve it’s it’s a problem. Like, I don’t like that I still have a slip once ayear. So, I want to come and I want to do these things and and I think if you if he wants to pursue treatment to tryto overcome this thing, there’s still some things underneath it. There’s some anxiety. There’s some other stuff that’s going on there, he could benefit fromthe principles that you teach in terms of like wholehearted recovery when you talk about being shame resilient and alifestyle, all the lifestyle things of connection.” And of course he could learn about things like habit loops andstuff that could be beneficial to him. But um but the but the the label ofaddict is not going to be helpful for him. Um butTyler, I got to I got to say I I in essence agree with you. But if if youtreat that guy like he is this raging addict, then that’s what he really believes he is. So if you throw if youthrow him in the group with a guy who’s acting out with prostitutes every week and his wife is looking at him in thatcamp of like, “Yeah, well, he’s a sex addict. He he looked at porn once this year. He’s then then you’re actuallyreinforcing a lot of the damaging identities and beliefs that are that are going to helphim show up powerful and masculine and safe with his wife.” And so I think weneed to be careful. Yes, I agree. like, hey, go get some help if you don’t want to do that. That’s great. But if thathelp is, let’s reinforce a belief about yourself that’s absolutely not true. Andwe haven’t assessed that, then that’s a problem. And and and that goes back to what I wassaying is we’re up against a very difficult thing because the moment we start to assess it, it could be perceived as minimizing the trauma. Andthat’s I’ve seen that firsthand. It’s like I’ve shared with these clients, okay, I’m hearingyou’re actually not having a problem when you look at for five minutes once every two years. This sounds like uh I’mnot sure exactly what this is immediately. What are you doing? Are you denying my my trauma? He’s betrayed me.No, I I not saying that at all. But do we want to get good? And that’s thequestion is do we want to heal? Do we want to recover? And when I present it in that way, um I it’s again this ideathat this is the only area in our profession it seems like we don’t want to do better. We don’t want to find outbetter treatments, uh more effective solutions. We want to heal entirely. Wespeak of eliminating porn out of people’s lives, but what are we doing? I mean, with cancer, we’re constantlysearching for better solutions, better methods, better better recovery, all this. But are we doing that withbetrayal trauma? Are we doing that with addiction? Um, how are we improving as as professionals?Yeah, it’s a good question. I think there’s a there’s an ingredient that that we um that needs to always beconsidered, which is if a client goes out and I had a client who took a doubletake at a grocery store. There was a beautiful woman and he looked at her twice, right? and went home and with histail between his legs and and uh confessed to his wife and then they wentthrough this relapse protocol where he was punished for a while and and and but there’s there’s an ingredientthat’s there as well which is which is her past um experience and trauma, youknow. So, so whatever whatever he does, you mix that with her past experience and trauma and that’s what kind of blowsup in the relationship and and you know, one one spouse might say that’s that’s not a relapse. Thatdoesn’t affect me. That doesn’t that’s fine. Like whatever. While another spouse might say, I can’t handle that.That is a big big deal and you have a problem. And and and Daniel, I thinkwhat you’re saying is it’s really really hard in those moments of fear and painto address the partner’s experience and trauma to say like theway you’re looking at this might be causing you a lot of pain and suffering because they don’t in that moment thelast thing they need is any blame. Sure. Exactly. And it’s it’s natural that they’re feeling that. So, it’s hardto it’s hard to try to point that out and and tease those things out to sayagain, how do you balance? I see your pain. It totally makes sense why you’re there and why you’re having thisresponse. And is there something that could liberate you? Is there something that could that could free you fromthis? And and that’s I I think that’s really hard to do. And a lot oftherapists, the reason we stay kind of where we’re at with things is that thoseis that we don’t know how to navigate that that middle ground. But but Oh, go ahead, Daniel.And we teach limiting language, too. Like I Brandon, you shared a perfect example here. I double looked or had adouble take with at the grocery store with this woman. Now I’m going to confess. And now we’re not creatingconnection. What we’ve done is we created a uh confession cycle. Uh right,my wife gets to have desires. She gets to have thoughts and feelings. I would beconcerned if we went to our gym and she didn’t think some dude’s abs look coolor good. Exactly. If she came to me, I I want her to be able to say, “Yeah, dude. Alex Alex hassome ripped abs. Those are awesome.” That’s that’s a connecting. She justinvited me into her intimate world. She’s opening up. She opened up to me and she allows me todo the same. But we don’t teach how to use those as opportunities to connect and build trust. We see it as betrayal.And so those who are betrayed, I I think sometimes we’re pointing the finger at the wrong people. Yes, again definitelybetrayal happens but we are also taught to be betrayed in how we are raised. Weare not allowed to have any sexual thoughts or desires or feelings of any sort outside of the person we we uh arein love with. That’s that’s just that’s that’s like saying I can’t enjoyit’s probably a dumb analogy enjoy other cooking. I can’t ever go to a restaurant if I don’t enjoy my wife’sright food. I I realize that that analogy could break down fast, but my point is is we are human beings and we are morethan just objects. We can control our desires. We can have them appropriately and we we can learn how to communicatewith our spouse that way. Oh my goodness, that’s cool that you shared that with me. I didn’t realize that was something you enjoyed. Yeah, that is.And then she’s turning her desire to me. I have no concern that that’s going tolead her in some betraying act. I because we have that trust. We have thatability to have that conversation and and we don’t control each other’s desires. Safety and trust in a relationshipwill never ever um happen by force andcontrol and fear. So like, hey, let let’s shut down each other and our sexuality so then I can have safety.Safety and trust in a relationship comes through um bringing things to the light,being honest, being open, being authentic, and showing your partner who you really are. And and so that andthat’s what you’re talking about, Daniel. my my wife um we’ve had a lot ofcontractors coming over lately um to work on a house that we’re remodeling and there was this one contractor inparticular that was like a good-looking guy, you know, and I could tell she thought he was a good-looking guy and uhand it was it was that’s how that’s how this ended as as we were laughing together, my wife and I, and I was like,”Yeah, that’s beautiful.” I was like, “Yeah, he is he’s a hot guy. Like he’s a good-look guy. like I can see why you think that. And she feltreally safe with me talking about why she was attracted to that guy. And thenand then we had amazing sex. That is awesome. You know, and and so yeah, like I I haveno fear that she’s like with the contractor at the house right now, youknow, act having sex. Yeah. You know, I have zero fear of that because we have trust there and openness.So I love that. I love that experience. This is what we’re missing. We’re misswhen we talk we we seem to say two different things, right? We need to have connection, but then in our in ourtreatment process, we don’t teach connection and what that really looks like. We just foster this this traumacycle that that you’re bringing up earlier. Let’s let’s teach how to embrace each other’s desires and whatdoes that look like? Again, like you pointed out earlier, definitely in steps. We’re not going to teach it at the very first session, but at somepoint we got to start introducing these concepts. I have worked with so many and and I know this is going to sound uhdisparaging. I I have all the respect for people who work with bet trauma. Uh boy, I’m doing that today. Betrayaltrauma. Um and I like I like your new term trauma.We do that in our family with with the married couples. We we we put their names together as one. Maybe that’s whatit is. I am also very dyslexic and ADHD. So, on top of being sleepd deprived,you’re you’re getting the best of my speech here today. Sorry about that. Um, anyway, we need to introduce this andit’s at what point do we do that? That’s a hard one. Every situation is different. Uh, but I’m going to back tothe original question. Yes, we should have support, but we should also be constantly assessing is it helping usget to our goal? And what is our goal? Is it to remain married? Is it to fosterconnection? And we should be working with individual therapists, not just a atrauma group. I think we really do need counseling and how to have better relationships and what that looks like.Yeah. And we don’t really have good role models for that. Yep. Amen. Daniel, thank you, Daniel. Yeah, I I’m glad youbrought it back around to the question because I do think that that’s an important answer is that we should belooking at is this helping me get where I want to go? And and more specifically for those listening, if you’re if you’relooking at getting support, yeah, if you find a group, you want to find a group that is going to validate your pain, butthat is also going to push you to get better. And and that’s something toreally pay attention to as well. Daniel, I thought um with you coming on, Ithought we’d disagree on some things and have some discuss and uh I think we’re very much in alignment um at least onwhat we’ve talked about today. And um I feel like we could talk to you for for hours and hours. So we we’ll definitelyhave I need more sleep first. Yeah. Well, we we would love to have you come back, Daniel. And um Daniel, beforebefore we wrap up, can you just let everyone know where and how to find you? Yeah. So that you could find me a coupledifferent ways. I I run the uh Facebook group called Improving Intimacy for Latter Day Saint Relationships. It’s notjust for Latter-day Saints. We have a mixture of single all denominations uhmembers are not members. The idea there was to help people within a certain faith to approach this topic. But again,that’s um um improving intimacy in Latter Day Saint relationships or you can look me up on my professional sitewhich is ascent family therapy like ascending a mountain ascent family therapy. Um but many ways to find meeven Google me. But I I I appreciate your comment Brandon. I think a lot of people I’m not the best of writers. Ithink people have a a perception of me sometimes, but when you meet me, I think we tend to agree more than we disagree,and I appreciate that. I thank you for that. Awesome. Thanks, Daniel. I I know that a lot of our listeners arehaving all sorts of things roll through them right now. Um, if you if you are listening and you have questions or haveother ways you want to discuss things, go to therapy bros.com, submit a question, and request to comeon the show, and we’d love to have you on. All right, you guys have a good one. and we’ll see you later.[Applause][Applause] [Music]