Should I Include My Spouse in My Trauma Healing?

Intro

ShouldI include my spouse in my trauma healing? All right, you guys. Welcome back toanother episode of the Therapy Brothers. Um, today is the Therapy Bro. It’s justme today. Um, but I do have a good guest, so I’m excited about that. Um,Tyler, uh, Tyler’s off. He’s fishing. Uh, and, uh,he’s having a great summer, so I he he earns it. He works so hard and I hopehe’s doing well up there. Um, so I really appreciate you guys being here.

Why It Matters

Um, and I’m just going to dive into it with our guest here today. So, we haveum Harris on today and I I got to say I really like his name. It’s my uh son’smiddle name and it’s my mom’s maiden name. So, I don’t know if we’re family or not, if we’re related, but Harris,welcome to the show. Thank you, Brandon. Glad to be here. Sorry Tyler couldn’t join us, but um wecan live vicariously fishing with him after the show. Yeah, he better catch some big ones umto make it worth it for missing. So, um, all right, Harris, if you could justkind of give me a little bit of what’s going on with you, um, share a little bit of the background and, um, we’lljust kind of go from there. Sure. So, I have been in recovery for 20a little over 20 years, sober from drugs and alcohol and working an S programduring that 20 plus years. Good job. I’ve had uh when I started Ihad seven years of good sobriety in the S program. I I relapsed for three years,came back in, had another three years, relapsed for four,and came back in just over 11 months ago. And my wife, bless her heart, uhhas been through two. So, this is the second relapse she’s been through and has been committed. um to our our

Healing Alone vs. Together

coupleship in our marriage. And obviously having two relapses, I have toask myself like what am I missed or what am I missing, right? And so we uh we embarked uponthis time around the couple centric um focus that I guess is a relatively newthing in um recovery from sexual trauma and sexual addiction and that is umworking as a couple. Obviously, I have my program, she works her program, but we’ve been working a program together umwith an APSAT uh a couples-based um therapist and doing couples meeting, aregular sort of couples home group. And that has been invaluable for my recoveryand understanding where I may have went wrong in the past. and it’s certainlychanged our relationship 180 degrees from where it’s been. So my question foryou was I’m now starting through some of the literature um some the book uh goingdeeper and and looking at my core emotional trauma um which started as ayoung boy um we can get into that if if that’s uh important or necessary. Um butdo I do I include my wife in that recovery um and that work? So that’sreally the the reason for my call and get your thoughts on on that.This is a this is this this is a great question because what we see a lot oftimes is we we see the the issues come up a lot of times in the relationship.So the the pain point is the relationship. And so someone will come in and say, “Oh, you know, we don’t havetrust. We you know, my my spouse is mad at me.” Or and the reality is is that’sthat’s the symptom of something deeper that’s going on. And what the what thecouple a lot of times wants to do is really focus in on coup’s work in orderto try to make things better. But what has to happen is that deeper work. So, um, you can find some success, you cannavigate, you can learn how to navigate some things better, but if you haven’t done that deeper work, then you’re still

Help or Harm?

missing a huge piece of recovery. So, um, I I really appreciate this question.Um, I want to ask you when when when you say include her in your trauma work,what what do you mean by include her? Like, what would that what that mean? Well, it would mean um well, let me stepback. So, in my previous attempts at recovery in this particular marriage,I’m not sure she really knew about my core issues. I mean, I’m aware of them.I’ve certainly done, you know, a lot of work over the years in understanding why I uh am in the situation I’m in. But Idon’t know that she’s she’s not been privy to my sexual abuse as a child, howthat manifested in my early uh adolescence um and all of that. So whenI say include her, it’s not that we do the work together, but that she is, ifyou will, uh an informed participant or or including her in this is what Idiscovered this week or this is what I’ve learned about Gotcha. You know, that week, if that makessense. Yeah. What would what would be the the risks to that? What why wouldhow could that be problematic for me? um as an addict, right? I havenot been good at sharing anything real um in in um my years um particularly inthis relationship. And so the fear is is it too much? Does it make her does itfreak her out? Does it make her run? Does it scare her? Um because I I Idon’t know how how uh much she knows or wants to know.Gotcha. So um I I see. So like you’re worried thatyou might freak her out a little bit. Yeah. Cuz it’s pretty dark, you know,ugly stuff. Do do you think it could help her understand you better and make moresense of of the things that have gone on? That’s my hope, right? That’s definitelymy hope. And yes, I do I do believe that. But um I also cherish thisrelationship and um amaeternally grateful that she’s even willing to stick it out. Yeah. Two huge betrayals um in the 15 yearswe’ve been married. So I don’t want to put too much on her if that makes sense.Yeah. Good for you. um trying to be aware of that and and not like unload abunch of stuff on her. Um so I want to get to the actual question

Fear of Being Seen

here, but I I just want to kind of ask some questions first before we get to the the actual question. Um,do you feel it’s interesting you said because I’m an addict I have a hard time like sharingsome things and um it’s interesting because they say theopposite of addiction is connection right um but then it’s like well okaybut how close do I actually want to or how open do I actually want to be because I might get rejectedand should you open up to your spouse? Should you tell your spouse everything? Should you talk about all all of yourtrauma? Um the the question is is are theya safe person to hold that space for you to process that? Do you understand whatI’m saying, Harris? Yeah. Yeah. And and I would say yes. Ibelieve without question she is I mean we went through a therapeutic disclosurewhen we did the polygraph we did you know the protocol right and that hassignificantly changed the dynamic of our relationship we do we do a weeklycheck-in we talk about um triggers her triggers my triggers how how I can umyou know I’ve done quite a bit of work uh over these last couple of months about empathy empathy, feelingempathetic, and understanding her triggers and how deep the betrayal wasboth times, but particularly this last time. So, long-winded way of saying I dotrust that she won’t reject me and that she she umwill listen. It’s just uh unusual. It’s not it’s notcomfortable for me um or hasn’t been to you know to bring somebody anybody butobviously my wife and my spouse is the closest p the person I’m closest to inthe world into that inner circle of um you know this crazy mind that’s um beenan addict for 20 plus years. So Harris, I umso I want to ask you like try to be stop and think about this and be as honest as you can. And maybe maybe it’s somewherein the in between. Um but is your hesitancy in bringing her in to to see

Is Your Spouse Safe?

all these things and to do this work? Is it is it more about protecting her or is it more about protecting you?I’m thinking. Mhm.I mean, my gut says it might be more about protecting me.Yeah. You’re with a woman who’s been through disclosures and she she’s beenthrough hell and back and she’s still like there for you. Yeah. Right. And she’s al also soundslike a and I don’t know your wife, I’ve never met her, but she also sounds like a person who’s willing to also do work.Like she’s she’s doing therapy and she’s stepping into things and um and soand she’s in recovery. I can tell you that. And has worked a program and knows how to work a program. So yes.Yeah. So so I want to get to the I want to get to the very question that we asked, which is should I include myspouse? um uh in order to heal um trauma, you needto process and get honest with the pain. And so for anybody, this is why grouptherapy is so valuable because if you can get in a group where you can be very vulnerable and authentic and just talkabout your deepest pain, you can start to to process it and move it and healit. Um, if you just isolate in your pain and in your trauma, um, and you havenobody to talk to, then you’re not going to have a place to process and, uh, andand actually move that pain. So, should you include your spouse, it it will beand and I’m speaking in general, it would be really nice to be able to formost people because your spouse is hopefully the person closest to you. Um,and sometimes your spouse is not the best person to do all that work with.And the reason is is be it really depends on their ability um and and their recovery to hold that space foryou. um if they’re early on in their recovery process and they’re just swirling inbetrayal and pain, they might not have much um much in their bucket to give youin terms of like holding your space. Um and that’s where you go to your 12stepgroups or your therapy groups to find that type of support. Um, but down the road as you’re doing this work and if ifthey’re doing their work, then hopefully you become an asset for each other andand to to get deeper and deeper and more real and more authentic and more vulnerable. And the more you do that,the more healing you’ll experience. And as you know, Harris, as I as I’m talkingto you, you know, the thing to really gauge is why are we not going deeper? Is

Healthy Involvement

it my fear? Is it I? Is it? A and and there is an opportunity for you to pullher in. That will really help your own healing because you’ll actually learn how to sit in that vulnerable spacewhich will that in and of itself is like the healing medicine to to actuallystart to shift and desensitize the trauma that you’ve had. So, I’m saying alot right now. Harris is What are you hearing me say? So, well, a couple things. Um, the aspect of being in agroup um being helpful for um anyone,but in my particular case, to sort of process where it’s safe and and there’slike-minded people. And we’ve experienced that, my wife and I, in this coup’s meeting that we attend on aweekly basis where we have, I don’t know, 20 couples on on a Zoom call andit’s an addict and the and the anon, right? The non betrayed partner.And you really, one of the thing, one of the tenants of that meeting is we can hear more from other people’s betrayedpartners than we can hear our own betrayed partner. Meaning it’s more meaningful coming. Sointeresting. So, um, and that has been true for us and it has, I want to say,revolutionized our relationship. And so, to take that a step further, I think itwould be very helpful for me and I assume for her to have her I I don’tknow how, but to have her involved as I go into the the muck, if you will, ofwhy I ended up where I did. I mean, I I know intellectuallywhy I’m an addict and and you know, I tell people in meetings, I could writeyou a paper on why I’m an addict, but getting into the core emotions of whatthat did to me is something I haven’t really done and I believe is why I’verelapsed because two things. One, I didn’t do the recovery program inconjunction with my wife or include her in that process. And two, I never reallygot to the core uh, you know, shamebasedum, upbringing that led me to, you know, check out with my addiction.Yeah. I I uh there’s a Patrick Kins has a in in hisresearch he found that sex addicts have four core beliefs that that they they

Spouse ≠ Therapist

have. Um and one of them is um if theyif they really knew me, they wouldn’t love me or accept me. And so a sex addict, what they’ll do isthey’ll try to manipulate or hide from the reality in order to still beaccepted or loved. Um, and so it’s it’sinteresting because what I’m hearing you say, Harris, is like, you know, I I still hear that in you ofof that fear of like, oh my gosh, if I actually if I actually really told her some of these things, she might bedisgusted or scared or like if she she she if she really knew me, would wouldshe love me? You know, and and that’s what I’m hearing coming from you. Um,can you see that? Yes, 100%. And you know, I check that box that Patrick K talks about. I havemy own phrase. It’s I’m a worthless be piece of poop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and so how doyou how do you change that belief? Do you know how?No. That’s what you’re going to tell me. Well, the the you know, I always say thecave you fear to enter is holds the treasure that you seek. And so if you want to find out that you’re not aworthless piece of poop, if you want to find out that that you are actually loved even with all of the things andeverything, you have to take the risk. You you have to do the opposite thing ofwhat your addict part has has done for years and years and years, which is doeverything to avoid that exile part being seen. Um,so like I’ll give you some examples and and some of them aren’t aren’t good examples. Um, because there is risk tothis. There’s vulnerability. Um, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve worked with couples and they’ve gottenbetter and uh, each partner’s safer and um, there’s this big secret. there’sthis big piece of trauma that’s just like just overwhelminglyterrifying and um the the one partner finally says,”I’m ready. I’m ready to disclose. I’m I’m going to tell my partner about it.” Um and they go and they tell theirpartner and their partner is just full of compassionand um just understanding and just just like their heart breaks for them becauseof all the pain they’ve been in for all these years about that piece of trauma. And so think what happens in that

Real Support

moment. So, the person who’s disclosing is thinking like, “Oh my gosh, if theyreally knew and here I go, I’m going to say it.” And it’s met with thatcompassion. It’s like, “Whoa, this is like they love me more. They they’re more connected tome. They see me. They love me in spite of these experiences that I’ve had.”What? I don’t know what to do with this because it goes against everything that I’ve told myself for years and years andyears. Um, and it’s it’s a powerful healing moment for them. Um,but Harris, I got to tell you, like as as I’m saying this, it sounds to me like your wife is primedto be that type of partner who can hold that compassion and that space for you.Seems like it to me. What do you think? Yeah, she is. I mean, I will tell you inthis latest um disclosure and and um relapse comingout of it, you know, she she’s a good recovering um addict and she looked forher part and um you know, a lot of her friends told her, “You don’t have anypart. You know, this is not your thing.” And she said, “Well, I had my suspicions. I had these feelings thatsomething wasn’t right and I didn’t follow that uh that intuition. So mypart, small though it may have been, was I probably could have interrupted this sooner had I um so to speak put my footdown or at least asked the right questions instead of so long. she’swilling to to help and to to tofacilitate my recovery because obviously uh someone who’s been through doublebetrayal and is still working on the relationship I mean everything otherthan this Brandon in our relationship and and it’s a big thing but is has beenmagical. I mean that’s why we’re still trying to work at it. Um, so I think Ifeel very strongly that she’s willing. I think it’s more am I

Avoid Codependency

Yeah. Yeah. I’m I’m reminded of a story. Um, my mysister one day we were little kids and she was just started crying likehysterically and and we were saying, “What? What’s the matter? Like what’s going on? what’sthe matter? And she she wouldn’t tell us. She’s she she was like, “No, I can’t tell you. It’s like the worst thing I’veever done. It’s so bad.” And this went on for hours.And um finally, like we we I was telling her I remembertelling her like, “It doesn’t matter what it is, just tell us like stop. We’re crying, you know?”and she looked uh she like faced us and she looked up and she said, “I swalloweda button.” Um, and it’s this is why this isinteresting, Harrison. And I I think it’s applicable and I mean it’s apples and oranges, butI remember my first thought when she said that wasall of that pain and anguish and crying because you swallowed a button. Like Ifeel so bad that you’ve been through so much today. Like that it’s it’s horrible that you’vehad to feel all of that guilt and all those things. Um, and I know swallowinga button is different than the trauma that you’ve experienced. I’m not saying it’s the same. But the point being, assomebody who loved my sister, my biggest concern wasn’t that, you know, she didsome, you know, in her childish mind, it was really naughty and bad to swallow a button. Um, she did. I wasn’t worriedabout that. I was worried about all the pain that she was in because she feltlike she did something so wrong. Um, do you see the difference?I I do. And it it um it brings up a story for me of making a ninestep amendsmany many many years ago to a family member. And my perception of how I hurtthis particular family member was completely wrong. And I had held thisbelief for 30 years that I had done something horrific to this familymember. And then you go to make amends and the family member their perceptionwas well that’s not how I saw it. It was something all those years Harriscorrect like right holding that baggage when there was so to your point you knowI’m coming around to um it’s it’s probably will be

Final Thoughts

my intuition tells me it’ll be really helpful for both of us for the relationship but also for me to includeher as much as she is comfortable being included. Yeah. and and you’re like that fear isgoing to come up and say no no no no no like don’t um but I I wouldn’t beencouraging you to do this and I I don’t I just have a small little snippet of what’s going on in your relationship.But from the things I hear, it sounds like she’s somebody who can be I mean, you’re already checking in all the timeand connected and doing this coup’s workshop. Like you’re already down the road of of building that relationship soit can be an asset for you in in in recovery. Um, and it’s it’s this it’skind of a a catch 22 because this isn’t really about the relationship. this is about your own individual healing andyet it will help the relationship. Um the more vulnerability you can practiceuh with her um the more you’re going to be able to get it out and realize you’reyou’re loved. Um but and and the more she’ll be able to see the real you, whoyou actually are and love the real you. Um, I I want you to speak more, Harris, ifyou would, to the fear, like what are you so afraidof? Like what what what is the fear that she’s going to be disgusted, scared?Um, like just talk speak to that a little bit. Well, I don’t think um thatthere’s anything. I’m not afraid that she’s going to be disgusted or run screaming out the house and, you know,okay, divorce me the next week. I think it’s morethe fear of um umSorry, there’s a there’s a knock at the door. Come back later. Come back later.Sorry about that. You’re okay, Brandon. Um, it’s more a fear ofme seeing the real me. I don’t It’s hard. It’s hard to put into words.Um, because look, I’m not a young man. This is This has been around for since I wasnine years old. And so opening the wound or the can or pulling back the curtain.Um like I know she’s not going to run away and andum and yetno one’s ever looked at this um side of me or part of me. It’s so who you knowwho knows what’s going to happen. I know I’m rambling. I I’m probably making nosense, but No, you’re making actually a lot of sense. I think you’re being very honest. Um and uh because what I’m hearing yousay is I’m almost hearing you say that I’m I’m almost scared to go and do this deeprecovery work. And it’s like it’s almost like there’sit it would be really nice if your wife wasn’t a safe person. she, you know, she wasn’t, but she is. And you have allthese opportunities and resources available to you to actually go deep now. And I think you know, Harris, thatif you really really want like full recovery, you’ve got to turn and face this beast.Um, there’s no way around it. and that your wife is giving youopportunity to to support you to face that beast, right? Um, but I’m hearingyou say like, “But I don’t know if I dare.” That’s that’s kind of what I’m hearing. Is that is that accurate?I I think I think that’s um that’s accurate. And look, I do want to umfully face this beast because I have very clear evidence that what I’ve donein the past doesn’t work. I you know what’s the saying? I I know I know Iknow I have another relapse. I don’t know if I have another recovery in me. Yeah. And I know that I don’t. And look lookbeing out there in active addiction is no fun.No. Um and it gets worse each time becauseI’ve done it twice. So that’s not something I want to do um or go back to.And I now know that in order to not do that,um there are a couple of things I need to do. One is to include my wife in the recovery process. And that means thewhole full disclosure that we’ve done. um working as a couple with a a couple’sfocus therapist on, you know, how I got to where I am and addressing the coreum emotion, the core trauma that made that led me to to do what I did.What what how in what ways have you addressed that trauma or have you?Well, I I’ve done in my history, I’ve done some EMDR, which has been reallyhelpful. Okay. Um, I’ve I’ve sort of written outwhat happened. Like, it took me a long time to even rememberwhat the core trauma was. And and I guess part of my fear is do I have allthe information or is like, is it just a little bit? Was it worse than I was it worse than I remember?And I didn’t remember when I first got into recovery. I it had all been block you know blotted outand through work and you know different techniques I got to I think the bulk ofit but that may be part of my fear is like did I miss something like was there moreright what else might come up correct right um but you have done some some work likeyou’ve done some EMDR um so you haven’t been unwilling to go address some ofthis right Right. Um, but you feel like there’s more to go.Yes, there’s more to go. Be and the reason I say that is because look, Iwork a good program and and I have worked a good program and I lost my sobriety um twice. So, what h what did Imiss or what did I not address that allowed me to, you know, to go backout there? And I think it’s the stuff we’ve been talking about. You’re asking the right question, Harris. You’re a wise man. Um because Iwould guess too that there is stuff that um you know the the first round of EMDRyou probably pro processed and desensitized some pretty important things. Um but there’s more work to go.So do you know how to do that work to address that trauma beyond EMDR?No. I mean, I’m working with someone who I I a therapist who who has training inthat, but no, I mean, I don’t I’ve tried all kinds of different modalities, Iguess you would say, but yeah, the the to me I I love EMDR and Imean, my clinic specializes in EMDR and trauma work, and I love it. It’s great.Um, and I think often times, more times than not, the trauma healing needs totake place outside of a therapy office. Um, and the reason is is becauseyour your head, your your mind is the thing that has been trying to avoid youreally addressing the trauma. Um and and so when you go to a therapy office andyou sit across from somebody, what do you do? I talk.Yeah. We talk. And guess what we have to use when we talk? We use our brains. We use our, you know, we’re like trying to talkit out. And it, you know, I like EMDR because EMDR, if you’ve done it right, you don’ttalk much. You just kind of go with that. um you you you you’re justprocessing and you’re actually having an experience. You’re moving your eyes or whatever. Um and the therapist’s job ifthey’re a really good EMDR therapist is to get out of the way is to to not likethrow their own stuff in their own analysis of this or that or that get out of the way of the process. Um, and thisapplies to not just EMDR, but things like like some really good um traumahealing breath work can just like just work wonders to to move this stuff andto bring stuff out and bring stuff up. Um, and so just we call it exponentialum activities that can actually shift things. I was listening to uh BesselVanderulk talk and I don’t know if you know who he is. Umbut I don’t but I just made a note. Yeah, it’s a kind of a funny name. Bessel Vander Caulk. Um he wrote a book,The Body Keeps the Score, and he he studied trauma healing for I don’t knowlike 40 years or something. He’s one of the leading experts on it. And both him and Gabber Mate agree that in order toheal your trauma, there’s like it’s it doesn’t happen with with like cognitivebehavioral therapy um or talk therapy. And the thing that Bessel lists off, ifI can reme remember these off the top of my head, one was yoga, which is interestingum because yoga is just learning how to sit in pain. It’s learning how to begrounded. It’s having an experience. Um, one was psycho drama therapy. So, Iwon’t get too into what that is, but it’s I’m famili I’m familiar with psychology. Okay. Yeah. Um, so psychodrama, which ishaving an experience, right? It’s being in that moment and having an experience. Um, you’re sh you’re you’re havingemotions, you’re having feelings happen. Um, one is psychedelics. Um, BesselVanderolk talked about that and that that’s one of my favorite modalities and um I believe works wonders if it’s doneright. Um, uh, psychedelics, yoga, psycho drama,um, oh, and EMDR, you mentioned EMDR. So, like in all of those things, theyhave something in common and it’s unbburdening those those protective parts or it’s it’s a it’s anego. um you can let your ego off the hook for a minute and you get to be in theexperience. That’s what actually starts to shift your trauma. Um and so I I love grouptherapy. I love talk therapy. Talk therapy is really beneficial for a lot of reasons. But when it comes toreleasing some of this trauma that’s just holding you down, it takessurrendering to those experiences. Um, and like I was talking about earlier, when you open up to your wife and youhave an experience of feeling her compassion, that will shift your beliefof self, that will heal your trauma. Um, and so working with her to do that, Ithink I think you should definitely pursue. But I would also consider,Harris, I think I think with all of the systems that you have in place, you’ve learned really well how to manage youraddiction. What I think you’re not doing is actually going to heal it fully. Ishouldn’t I shouldn’t say that. you’ve done a lot of work. But well, but but I point taken. Um it’spart of the reason why I, you know, clicked on the link and signed up to talk to you. Um and I I have done I’vedone psychodrama. I’ve done psychedelics, but not that was back in Not in the healing trauma way.Not not in the healing trauma way. So I’m a little averse to that. Uh but but it’s been my point is it’s been 20 plusyears since I’ve done some of this and maybe it’s time to revisit some of these modalities now that you know I’m olderand wiser or or through um the initial stages of uh you knowrecovery. So, I think you’re I think you’re so prepped for it like with your relapses and withgetting back in recovery and like you are good at setting up recovery capital like you’re really you’re really good athaving systems and people and support and so you’re you are primed right nowHarris and part of you might be thinking like oh shoot dang it I’ve gotten myself to a pointwhere I know there’s a step further to go and there’s No excuse.There’s no excuse. Like I’ I’ve done so well up to this point. So So am I goingto go there? Am am I going to actually go face this? And um I I don’t think youwould be on this call with me talking about this topic right now unless you really knew that that you that you areready for that next step. I mean, you were talking about um what was the book you’re reading? Digging deep.Going deeper. Going deeper. You’re reading going deeper, right? Um, and so I think you’re you’re ready.Um, it’s just a matter of taking those steps and having those experiences there.There’s opportunity. Um, like I have access to all the things I just listed off from except for theyoga. I don’t run a yoga studio, but I’m sure I practice yoga and actually started yoga when I got into recovery. SoOh, I love it. That’s awesome. Yeah. Um, so you already got that one going. Um, you’ve done the psycho drama EMDR.You have some experience with um the experentials the or the breath work. Icould I could get you access to um or you can find that wherever you’re at.And so there’s opportunity. You can find these resources and actually do them. Um they’re there for the taking. It’s justa matter of that that there’s going to be that I call it I call it your threshold guardian, but there’s going tobe that that fear voice come up and be like, um, I’m scared of what I might find. Um, I do I really want to do this,right? So, um, what are you thinking, Harris, as I’m saying all this?Um, what am I thinking? I’m thinkingI knew the answer before I came on. Yeah, you did. It’s nice to get the reinforcement.Although I will say the new the new um tack for me or exploration for me arethese more experiential things than you know I take your point umthat you know I put a system in place. I’, you know, I’ve managed to manage myrecovery. I have all the right things, but um this is what um is maybe lackingor the next step, however one wants to look at it. And so, umdefinitely want to explore one or all or different. You know, theway I I’ve been doing yoga, the reason I love yoga so much is it gets you out of your mind and into your body. Yeah.You know, and so if some of these other things can move the mind aside and getto the junk, gunk, whatever we want to call it, that you know,led me here. That would be great. And the it’s pretty amazing to me like allthe years I’ve done therapy, um, you know, at times it’s frustrating. It’s like, man, I want people to heal, butthey’re just not. And but it’s amazing to me like there are these things outthere that actually do work. And um I’ve seen people shift from a state ofconstant fear and shame to to places of peace and self-acceptance. And you know,just a couple weeks ago, um, a little over a week ago, I had an event where wedid breath work and some psychedelic work, and some of the some of the answers people were getting and some ofthe the things that they were feeling were miraculous. It was it was justawesome. And they experience things that they’ve never have in their life opposite to their shame. And um, so it’sthere for the taking. and and you know if your wife is working her own recoveryand you start stepping into doing some of this work and these things she might do some of the things as well right andthen you can connect with that or at least she could be a place where you go do this and then you come home and yousay you won’t you won’t believe what I experienced um let can I tell you all about itum and she’s a place where you can process this and talk about it and andjust love each other in that intimate place of healing. Um,that’s awesome. That’s absolutely if if that can happen, why not, right?Right. So, um, Harris, do you have any last questions for me?No, you’ve given me a lot to think about and, um, really appreciate the time andthe, um, empathy and, um, concern, youknow. Um I I love I love love love recovery andum your story of the these relapses and then coming back and coming back again.Um like I know how hard it is and I knowwhat that takes and um you know we’re talking about you taking a next step inrecovery. Um, and I I think there is a next step to take, but I don’t thinkthat discounts the hard work that you’ve done and uh that you absolutely are afighter and so it’s awesome that you came on today and practiced courage tocome here. So, I really appreciate that and uh I’m here as a resource for you, Harris, if you need anything. Um, I’mhappy to help in any way. And um yeah, until next time you guys. If if this washelpful, please share it or leave a review and mention Harris and thank him. And until next time, keep on keeping on.