Why are we TIRED of Talking about Surface Level Recovery?

Intro

Why are we tired of talking about surface level recovery?Brandon, what’s going on, man? You know, just I don’t know. Life’s justthe same old same old. What about for you? You just got done with freedom day, man.Same old, same old. Yeah, my daughter had a murder mystery party with like 15 kids came over. Um,but it’s a dinner party, so I got to be the chef and my other kids were thewaiters. Yeah, it was it was a blast.Were you the Were you the murderer? No, I wasn’t. I was not. Thank goodness.Yeah, it was fun. You know, my daughter’s into theater and stuff, so you should you should see theater kidsdo a murder mystery party. They they know how to do it. I bet that Do they come all with costumes and everything?

Shame or Humility?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they they like they are not afraid to get into it.It reminds me a couple years ago at a family reunion, you know, Chase, Brandon. Oh, yeah. Of course,he uh he wrote his own murder mystery and then he brought all the costumes and he made all of us like play the partthat he wrote for us. And it was like all this like he made me be he made me be teabags the time bomb and I was I wasa a pro wrestler that looked like Hulk Hogan. So I had a big mustache and a speedo and uh and I had to act like youdoing like those wrestling saliloquies every time I spoke. I think you just got yourself a new nickname teaag the time bomb.So Chase just basically wrote this. He wrote this thing just so he couldlaugh at all of us like play the part that he wrote for us. Yeah. How did How did he actually likeget you guys to do that? I’m Hey, for next family party, I’m going to do that. So, expect me to get your costume. Yougot to do it. Yeah, that was Imagine what I would haveyou wearing. I’ I’d think I’d get sick and not show up.Yeah, yeah, that’d be fun. Get big big Z and Whiz ina costume. The whole family out there playing the part, man. And the thing about thosethings is is that the more you get into it, the more fun it is for everybody. Oh, if you don’t get into it, it’s notfun. It’s It’s horrible. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You got to either go all in ornot. Yeah. So, yeah. Anyways, um just a reminder,we decided today. Well, you just just decided today. Brett Brandon just decided our last episodebecause I want some people to come to our Rising Sun. It’s coming up. So, uhwe’d love to have you come to Rising Sun. It’s the last weekend of Septe September. Um it is like one of the mostfavorite things that we do and probably one of the most impactful things that wedo. And so if you’re a man and you’re just wanting more answers in life, umtrying to figure out your purpose, trying to work on your healthy masculinity to feel confident inyourself, um this retreat is for you. Um it is deeper recovery work and we wouldlove to have you. So if you come on and be a guest or sign up to be a guestbefore my birthday, July 31st, you’ll go in a drawing to attend Rising Sun forfree. So, we’d love to have you on as a guest. We’d also just love love to have you umif you’re interested in looking at the retreat, risings.org. But otherwise, sign up to come be a guest and talk withBrandon and I and we’ll throw your name in the hat for drawing and we’ll we’ll draw one of you guys to come join us and reserve your spot. Um they it doesfill up. So, if you pay for it and then you win the drawing, we’ll refund you.So, go sign up, get your spot uh and get in the drawing. That would be awesome.

It’s Not Just Behavior

So, we love we would love to have you. Great. Um, yeah, Brandon, let’s jumpinto it. Uh, both of us, we actually had this discussion a little while ago, and we both said, you know what, there’s athere’s a whole lot of principles of recovery that lots of people like to hear about and talk about all the time,which relate to recovery. And both of us kind of looked at each other and we kind of got this like fatigued look on our face of likeand we we thought, man, like why do we why do we dread having to talk aboutrecovery? And then the further we discussed, we talked a little bit about it’s not necessarily talking about recovery that we dread. It’s the energythat comes with only focusing on surface level recovery that gets kind of fatiguing and tiring. Not because theprinciples are wrong, but because the energy that people ask the questions from are they’re sometimes missing theboat. It’s the spinning of the wheels, Tyler. So, I think what what burns me out and makes it really difficult is when likepeople don’t understand or see what theywhat actual recovery is, and they won’t see it until they’re ready to see it. And so they’ll come in with pain pointswith problems and they’ll be trying to fix those pain points and they’re like they want answers to fix those painpoints and there are actual answers to like address those things but it doesn’taddress the deeper issue and so long term it’s not going to actually solvethe problem. So I can give you some examples Tyler if you want. Go for it. Um, and you know these like

Coping & Core Beliefs

the back of your hand. I mean, you’ve heard them a million times, but you know, one thing is sobriety. Like, we’vetalked a lot about sobriety and how sobriety is not recovery. It is important. It is important, not recovery.But you go back and listen to our episodes, Tyler. How often do we have to overcomedealing with focusing on sobriety as the thing that is recovery? like we hear itall the time. Uh and and sometimes even from people who understand that like wedon’t we don’t like see sobriety and recovery as the same things, but they still don’t understand they still don’tunderstand what actual recovery is. Um so that’s an example that we get all thetime is sobriety. Here’s here’s another one that goes along with that, Brandon, and it’s a little bit broader thansobriety, but people come in all the time and they they say, you know, I’ve got this problem with whatever alcoholor porn or something else. I just need a few tools and skills and strategy to beable to stop that and then just give me the formula that ends this behavior andthen I’ll be all better. And then sometimes they even start doing the right things. They start doing their daily charge. They start setting up somegood lines of defense. They start to build a team. They they start practicing their mindfulness. And then when they start to gain a little bit of tractiontowards that end, which is the sobriety end, then they let go of all the things that got them there. They let go of thedaily charge and the lines of defense and and they don’t keep nurturing their relationships. And then they sit and they wonder like, why am I thought Ifixed this? Yes. And and and in a certain sense, they’re they’re focusing on a fixed mindset ofrecovery rather than learning to adopt the growth mindset of a healthy life.Yes, that that that’s it. And it sets them up it sets them up for not havingit last long term. Um okay, I got another one. Um something we hear overand over like when is my partner going to likewant to be close to me again? Or how do I rebuild trust with them? Or how do these are all good questions, all great

Shame vs Accountability

stuff. Great questions. Um the the problem is a lot of times isthey come back to the sobriety thing or they come back to the I’m following the checklist of the things I should do inorder for them to like me again. Why aren’t they? Um I’m showing up weak. Idon’t have honest boundaries. Um I don’t trust myself.But I’m showing up weak in order to try to rebuild trust with them. Why is thatnot working? I’m so frustrated. Do we not hear that all the time? All the time. And and in fact, you hearthe frustration because there’s a lot of times there’s exasperation and tiredness because I am actually putting in a tonof work towards what I think is the outcome that I want. They are willing. They are willing to dothe work. That’s right. They’re willing to do the work, but but they’re doing the work.And this is the hard part, Brandon. And I think this is maybe part of why we wanted to have this discussion today iswhen you look at the the process of a recovery, most of us we like to be ableto grab an instrument or something that gives us the pathway, the recipe towards that recovery, right? So it’s like ifyou do this and then you do this and then you do this and then you do this and then you do this, you’ll be all better. And and the truth is is that allof those principles, all those tools, all those skills that you can go and glean out of any type of a program,they’re really valuable. But they’re only valuable if you also pair that with and this is the the lesstangible part. If you pair that with a mindset and a heart or an energy thatmoves towards real change rather than trying to rely on the tool to do thefixing in a in a certain sense. So what do I mean by that? Um, if I’m doing all ofthose things that you just said, Brandon, in order to rebuild trust with my partner so that my partner will like me again, I’ve already kind of missedthe boat because now I’m doing the recipe. It’s a it’s a form of denial called compliance where I’m doing all ofthe things I’m supposed to, but my heart isn’t fully engaged or my heart’s engaged for a selfish purpose ratherthan for, you know, the greater good kind of idea. Yeah. Let let me see if I can word thisexactly what you just said in in a different way. If I’m acting out because

Control & Release Cycle

I have a lot of shame and so I’m soothing that shame. I’m finding false sense of connection, those type ofthings. And then I get busted or I get tired of that. And so then I use thatshame in order to fuel my recovery. So now now I’m using shame to try to begood enough to work my way through the 12 steps to to show everybody that I’m I’m doing good now and I’m I’m usingshame to to to fuel that. Guess what?The same problem’s still there. It’s it’s what’s the problem? Theproblem is the is the shame and the lack of shame resiliency rather than the acting out itself.So my behaviors have changed drastically. In fact, they’ve been they they’ve they’re like opposite now. LikeI’m I am addicted to 12step meetings. I go all the time because I got to show mysponsor, my wife, and everybody how good I am. Look at me. But how I resonate isthe same. Whether I was hiding with the shame about my addiction or whether I’m overcompensating,I’m still I still resonate the same with that shame. And just like you said,Tyler, um it’s a change of heart. It’s a shift in um like understanding yourselfand knowing yourself and and it’s a shift in the energy and the the emotion that is behind why you do what you do.It’s the whole be do have principle. Um a and so a lot of times who we talk to,clients, guests, whomever it is, they come in and they still are in those states of force, control, shame, umwanting certain outcomes. Now, they want those outcomes for good reasons, but what’s underneath it is still that. Andif we don’t address that, then actual recovery will never happen.Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s hard to connect the dots because the pain point is the thing is the fruit of the plant.It’s the behavior that’s like, well, I just blew up my marriage or man, I can’t stop doing this thing. And that’s thething that’s like manifesting in our lives, but we don’t realize that that that’s actually just a non-effective

Healing Through Experience

solution to the deeper problems. And then when I come into like a group or something and I feel like I got to sit around go around the room and say, “Heyguys, I you know, I touched my penis four times this week.” Um, please everyone tell me how bad I am. We we wecall that humility when in reality that’s shame manifesting itself on top of itself.And and so it’s that energy shift is the thing that that we’re really trying to work towards. And sometimes people willalmost, you know, they don’t they almost can’t connect the dots that they come in andthey just report it on themselves that they just relapsed and then the discussion goes into a different topicof their emotional coping or what was underneath it emotionally or what’s behind it or what’s the core beliefthat’s driving all of this? And they’re like, why are we having this discussion? I just want help stopping this behavior,you know, and they and they haven’t quite fully connected the dots yet that these things are all strung together.And unless we address the roots and the core, the fruit will will just it’ll bea different version of the same fruit. It’ll be a different color of the same fruit. So, instead of porn, it’ll now become spending money or instead ofspending money, it’ll become video games. Or instead of video games, it’ll become social media or whatever else.because I haven’t really addressed what is it about the way I see myself in mylife that makes it so intolerable that I have to disappear. And that’s a that’s a scary proposition,but but passing through that process is part of what starts to shift the energy.So then I come out on the other side with a new set of beliefs where I start to say, “Huh, like looking at pornreally doesn’t serve who I am.” like it doesn’t actually help me with the life that I know I was designed to live. So,I’m going to do like all the stuff that that the doing. There’s nothing wrong with the doing. It’s the energy withwhich it’s done. So, now I am I want to set my lines of defense. I want to do my daily charge because that’s leading meinto the life that I believe I’m designed for. Yeah. And that energy shift all of a suddenrecovery becomes if people people like bulk at this all the time like how long is my recovery going to last? And youknow you I used to just flat out say the rest of your life and then they’d look at you like oh like oh my gosh there’sno way I can do recovery the rest of my life. And it’s like you and I have different definitions of recoverybecause to me recovery is an acceptance of my goodness and my possibilities andthe ability to grow until I die. Like who wouldn’t who wouldn’t want to be in recovery? But most people look atrecover and they’re like, I’ve got to run away from this bad behavior that’s been chasing me my whole life and I’vejust got to run from that the rest of my life. The Tyler, a lot of a lot of differentstories are coming up. I I think of um the guy when when I was way years agowhen I was doing LifeStar and his bishop said to him, “Once you get done with the workbooks, you can go back to the

Breaking False Beliefs

temple.” And so for him, his recovery meant once he gets done with theworkbooks. Yeah. And so in group, like, guess what? Every week he’s got two assignments ready to go.Oh my gosh. We’re just pumping through them just like come on, come he he he went through like nine workbooks thatusually take a year and a half in like six weeks.Yeah. And I Hey, got through the workbooks. I guess that’s recovery, right? Like yay done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think of the guy,here’s another one that we see all the time, the guy who’s hiding things that he’s doing, hiding them from his spouse,um, gets busted and he’s told that he needs to be an honest man. And so then he goes into anxiety and overdiscloseseverything he possibly can because now he’s going to be an honest man and he wants to make sure that that he’s notdoing anything bad, so he’s being an honest honest person. and to his spouse, he’s overdisclosing things where it’sjust like there’s just no safety there at all. And and you look at this and you’re like, well, there was no safetywhen he was acting out behind the scenes. So, wouldn’t the answer to that being like over, you know, out therewith everything that you possibly can be? What’s the issue? The issue the issue isthe energy and the reason for the instant overhonesty.You know, it’s like he’s still wallowing in fear and shame. It’s fear and shame. So, so the energy that we’re talking about is thedifference between fear, force, coercion,like versus love, possibility, real accountability,real humility. Um, those two energies are so different.And now now it’s hard because if if you’re in an addiction, it’s likely thatyou’re already used to having the default currency of your life be shame.And what shame is is this is this teeter totter of control and release. So you control, control, control. I got to beperfect. I’m going to criticize myself into being a better person. And then when life piles up to where I can’thandle it anymore, then I release. Oh well, what the hell? Boom. Let it all go. But then I feel bad about myself. Sowhat do I do? I retighten it all up. And I’m never going to let anybody know, but I’m going to be perfect again. Control.Control. Control. Coercion. Coercion. Self-criticism. Release. Y. And that is

Courage in Recovery

the part that has to be worked on and broken. That’s the part that has to be shifted inside the cycle if you wantlong-term success. Tyler, there’s a the only way to shift it though is through experience.Like the is you you always talk about an emotionally corrective experience. um that’s the only way to shift thesethings. So a lot of times what happens is somebody’s feeling shame, fear, shameand this shame and uh cycle with release is going on and they come to therapy orthey start working these workbooks or go to 12step or whatever and they think like okay like this is going to cure meeverything’s going to change. But if you sit in that 12step meeting and your shame is running the show in that 12stepmeeting, nothing changes. If and and so like let let me give an example here. IfI had trauma as a child and let’s say I had some abandonment or some rejectionand in that abandonment or rejection my my natural reaction with my ego was tolike be extra kind and nice and make sure I never make waves with people because I I took on a a belief that waspeople will reject me unless I’m really nice. Okay. So now fast forward intoadulthood. Here I am and I’m in therapy and my therapist is like, “Hey, just stop touching your penis. Like, knockthat off. Call your sponsor. Here’s all your tools to not do that.” Blah blah blah blah blah. Well, okay. So, I Istopped doing that because I want to be nice to my wife and I want to like show her that I’m good and so she won’t reject me, right?What I actually need to do is face the actual demon. I need to deal with the the the trauma and the beliefs and Ineed to practice some some real courage.Courage is the key to shifting the way you resonate. Some real courage to actually shift out of that.So if I So if I look at this and I’m like, okay, I got to be Mr. Nice. Got to be loved.Maybe the answer is to actually be empowered and honest even if peopledon’t like it. That could be the most therapeutic thing that I could do for myself. Not go out and be mean topeople, but honest even if people don’t like it, right? Yeah. I just had an example of this a

Trust Through Vulnerability

couple of weeks ago, Brandon, in my office. I said some things to a client a few weeks ago, and this client is she’slike she’s so agreeable. She she hates conflict. She hates like the fear thatconflict is going to lead to her rejection, to judgment, whatever. And I said some things in a session that shedidn’t agree with and she actually took offense to. Three weeks later, she comes back into my office last week and she’slike, “Hey, I she’s like, I am scared to death to do this, but I need to confront you about some of the things that yousaid.” Excellent. And then and then she like said everything that that she that wasyou know the problem with what I had shared which some of it was probably true and some of it I didn’t fully agreewith but then what what did I do?I was like more thrilled that she stepped into the discomfort of the conflict than than resolving theconflict itself. Absolutely. Hallelujah. like this is the this is the biggest step you’ve ever taken intreatment right now because you found a voice, you set a boundary, you came and talked to somebody who you respect andyou’re worried about getting getting rejected by and someone who has authority in a certain sense and youstill had a voice. Yeah, that’s freaking awesome. Y like that was her stepping through thefear with courage directly in opposition to her false core belief. And then shehad an emotional experience, an emotionally corrective experience where instead of me being like, “Well, you’renot only are you wrong, but I can’t meet with you ever again.” Rejection.Yeah. You confronted me, I’m going to reject you. Instead instead of that, she was like met with like, “Wow, that took a ton ofcourage. Thanks for bringing that up.” And you know what? There’s probably some truth in what you said. Let’s explore that. And what’s it doesn’t even matterif we find the solution. What she’s now experiencing isI didn’t get rejected and I can have a voice. Like, whoa, that’s possible. That’s an that’s an emotional thingthat’s happening that’s going to set in much deeper than the the rational mindful thing. Yep. I think about Tylerthe the thing we always say to people of like when your spouse is triggered orsad or whatever. Um you think about a person with trauma that says maybe it’sit’s mother wounds or or whatever, but trauma that says I I need those closestto me to accept me and love me and think that I’m good. Um I I need them to dothat. and versus, you know, a guy who’s trying to rebuild trust and he’s like, “My my wife istriggered and you know what? I’m gonna go step into that trigger with her. I’m gonna actually explore it. I’m going toempathize. I’m going to listen.” That right there is opposite action to the faulty core belief. That right there isan experience that will teach him that he’s strong enough um and that that heis not what like she does not define him. And so if he has those experiencesand he has them consistently, it actually starts to rewrite the story of what his shame is saying, it starts to

From Nice Guy to Real Self

desensitize the shame and changes the way that he resonates. Um, so instead of just showing up as Mr.Nice Guy or running and hiding, actually learning how to sit in that. Right? So that’s just another example. Courage isthe key. Vulnerability is the key. um real authenticity in in who you actuallyare. Now, that’s easy for us to say, but there’s all kinds of protective parts orfaulty core beliefs or your ego working extremely hard for you not to practicethat courage, not not to actually create these shifts. And so then you just stay stuck inthings. And this is why we get burned out because people come lay on our tablethat they actually in many ways, Tyler, ask us to to to like stay right wherethey’re at and help support them and reinforce their stuckness, right? And sowe get burned out of like we’re not doing that. Like people will come on ourshow, Tyler, and they have a question and they’ll leave the show like, “Wow, we went somewhere completely different than what I expected.”And there’s a reason for that, right, Tyler? Yeah, that’s Well, yeah, exactly. You know, I’m thinking, Brandon, as you’retalking, just a little behind the scenes for people listening, one of the most impassioned conversations I’ve had withyou recently, you said with just like pretty much every fiber of your being, we were on ina discussion about like how we approach things, how we try to help our clients, where we want to be going. And inessence, what you said to me, you probably use slightly different language, but you said, “I refuse to sign off on trying to fuel peoplethrough shame.” Um, no matter what that is. And you have almost such a repulsion to that now thatit’s like, whoa, you’re kind of like no shame no matter what. like becausebecause we’ve lived in such a world for so long where even the way that we were trained it was kind of originally almostlike a shamed driven kind of recovery plan. Absolutely. Um you know and and I think what we’verealized over the years is and and there’s still some middle ground. There’s a difference between accountabilityand using shame for that accountability, right? Yeah. Yeah. I I think I you know takesomeone who comes in. Let’s say someone comes in Tyler and they want to be sober and let’s say in group that week we’re

Shame-Based Recovery Fails

talking about relapse prevention tools, right? And so it’s like does that make relapse prevention tools bad?No. You need them. They’re great. No. Right. That guy who’s trying to be sober is going to cling to that and belike, “Hey, I’m going to try this and I’m going to do this and these mindfulness tools these that’s all good. That’s fine.The problem is is when we get stuck right there and and and that’s where it’s like, okay, now I have what I cando in order to be good enough. Well, the the work that needs to be done isfor you to already know that you’re good enough. Like that’s regardless of your relapse prevention tools or not. Likethat’s we want you to be sober. So is great. It’s wonderful. But if you’re using sobriety to answerthat question, it’s a problem. Yeah. We we used to do we used to do a what wecalled a foundations course for people coming into our office and we’d have them sign up as couples for foundationsof recovery and they’d ask what’s going to be in there and we’d reference you know we’re going to teach you a atoolbox for managing emotions for sobriety for you know and then we get into the other things mindfulness shameresilience understanding trauma understanding the dance that you get in relationallywhat’s the what’s the one week that people always wanted um yeah well relapse prevention tools.They want the relapse prevention tools. And and you and I are sitting there going like that is those are important.That is the least important of all the content we’re going to cover in all six weeks. Yep.Um, and if you will soak in all of this other stuff, the relapse preventiontools will actually be amplified and will work better. They It naturally starts to happen.Yeah. Um, and Tyler, Reclaim Your Heart is our program that is exactly what we’retalking about. It’s real recovery. It’s deep work. It’s experential. And there’sa reason why we’ve built this program this way. Do we have a relapse prevention tools section in there?We we teach some tools right at the beginning, right? But is it relapse prevention?It’s emotional coping. Yeah. I mean, we teach some tools, but no, we don’t focus on on on this stuff

Tools vs Real Change

where people stay stuck, but we will push you to have these emotionally corrective experiences that will shifteverything for you. Um, you know, I think about, and I’ll just say it, likeDoug Weiss’s whole thing where he has people polygraph every six months forthe rest of their life or whatever. Like to me, to me that is not recovery. Likethat’s not it. Um, like if you have to polygraph 5 years into your marriage,then you still don’t have trust, right? So that’s an example of focusingon like the surface level BS and not actually getting anywhere with thedeeper work to actually create the shifts that you need to create so that you can actually create recovery bothwithin yourself and within a relationship. It’s the heart of the matter again. We keep coming back to that.Yeah. the heart of the matter, the the healing the deepest wounds.You know, as I I I I’ve seen this happen a lot. You know, let’s just take a group. This is a common thing we have.You know, the work that some of the people do. One of those things that I’ve had done in the past is, you know, let’ssomebody will do like their whole history of different forms of acting out. And then as part of that, it’s athat’s a daunting task in and of itself because you have to have something on a piece of paper staring back at youthat’s saying, “Hey, this is my body of work.” Yeah. Right. And then and then to make it even harder, here’s the courage. Hey, whydon’t you bring that to group and let’s go through that this week. And then they come in and they’re like, “Oh my gosh,if I actually do this, like I’m probably gonna have my whole group hate me. They’re gonna probably tell me never to come back again. everyone’s going tolike judge me completely. And then they share and they get halfway through thesharing and all of a sudden you can feel it. And this is this is it, Brandon. Like the room becomes a sacred place.You can feel this like almost like reverence and silence setting in. And then by the time the guy gets done

Reclaim Your Heart

sharing that whole history, there’s two guys standing up to give him a hug. One of them through their own tears. There’sthree other guys going like, “Oh my gosh, I know you better now and I love you even more now. I want to fight foryou even more now.” And he’s over here going like, “What? I’ve never experienced the factthat I’m being loved and accepted right in this moment when I just shared the things that make me unlovable.”And that shift, that one experience is worth far more than 10 weeks of relapseprevention tools. Not because the tools aren’t good, but because those things will they almostlike lay the band-aid over the top of the actual work that has to happen. Yes. And and if you do the work firstand then be developing the tools, do them both at the same time, now youhave something that can be a beautiful, sustainable life full of possibilities, whichhappens to be called recovery. Yeah, that’s recovery. That’s awesome. That’s well put, Tyler. I think of thethe really out of shape guy who has been fat his whole life and made fun of andyou know comes to a retreat or whatever, starts climbing a mountain and is the last guy just and and so all the otherguys run back down that mountain and they cheer him on and they they help him and and he gets to this summit. He getsto the top of the mountain. What’s that going to be like for that guy, dude? He justWhat is that like for that guy? We’ve seen this. Yeah, dude. He Well, number one, he’s in physical pain.He’s in a ton of pain. He’s He’s in a ton of pain, but he’s been loved. He’s been supported. Andwhat he just did, this h this actually happened at our last women’s retreat. There was a woman who was really reallyworried about one of the activities we were going to do because she didn’t think she was in physical shape enough to do it. And it ended up being, youknow, I think about a four mile kind of hike through through the desert of southern Utah. and she went on that fullhike believing that she might die on the trail because she didn’t think she could actually do it. And then there were

A Real Recovery Moment

times on the way out where we had to stop and take a breath and try to find what little shade we could. And yet overthe course of the time when she got out, something inside of her just learned,I am far more capable than I thought I was. Yeah. And that and that translated nowinto her life where she she came home and she’d been telling herself she couldn’t do anything. She came home andall of a sudden she started setting some different boundaries in her relationship. She signed herself up for graduate school. She’s now almost donewith her master’s degree. That’s awesome. Like you know like something shifted inside of her because she did somethingthat she didn’t think was possible and she had the support of those around her to love her through it. Confronting hershame. She had witnesses right in her shame and now she can step into courage in other parts of her life.Yeah. Because she sees the benefit of it. Right. Right. Right. And and it really does translate,you know, in recovery. Both men and women when they work recovery, they’ve they’ve experienced some of thesethings. They’ve faced their shame in all kinds of different ways. We could go on and on, Tyler. But there’s a there’s agroundedness and a peace and a acceptance to them. Um they they realizethey’re gonna screw up. They’re they’re not perfect, but they can navigate lifeso much better. They live in that growth mindset. Um they they’re not trying tomanipulate things so that they can get love. They know they’re loved um becausethey’ve practiced that vulnerability and that courage to actually feel it and know that they’re loved. Um, and ittakes the desire for addiction away. Um, and soBrandon, question on this. Um, just to what you were saying earlier,if you had to choose, you are married to a partner who’s working recovery andthey keep a calendar of sobriety up right above you guys’bed. and they do a six months every six months polygraph and they’ve come backas telling the truth and the calendar has stayed blank for the last 3 years.Would you rather be with that person or would you be with the person who you were just talking about that’s you canfeel is living from a growth mindset? You know what’s interesting, Tyler, is Iwould rather be with the person setting up the calendar if I was a person full of fear and anxiety and I wanted to staystuck in that fear and that anxiety. A healthy person would threaten the way I’m resonating.But if I want a healthy partnership, if I want a deep connection, if I want realintimacy, then I want that partner who is courageous, who is honest, who isgrounded, who’s at peace within themsself, um I I want I would rather have that partner even if they wererelapsing every so often, but they probably wouldn’t be. I’d still rather have that partner. Umbecause just you would feel from them that they know them and they lovethemsel. Um so and that the work is authentic whateverthey’re doing not fear-based. Yeah. Um you know Tyler with this discussionif people want to or if you’re signing up to be a guest and you want to talk about like our best relapse preventiontool please sign up. We we would love to have that talk with you. Yeah we’ll do it. Um, yeah. If you wantto talk about, you know, how to like get your spouse, all the right things todo to get your spouse to love you, like, sign up. Like, that’s fine. But fairwarning. Like, we’ll probably take you a little bit deeper. We’ll probably examine some of those wounds. We’llprobably understand why you’re showing up in your shame screens. um and get tosome acts of courage that you can actually do to to rewrite the story onthose shame screens and um and and create some shifts in your life. UmI I’m burned out with it, Tyler, because I want people to progress. I want peopleto find actual healing. And you and I both know we could wecould build massive businesses on this surface level stuff,right? Yeah. Because it’s that’s what that’s the pain point that’s being spoken to. Yeah, for sure.It’s just that the the process seems to run quite a bit deeper than that. We want real recovery.Yeah. But on the flip side of that, Brandon, likeI I feel like I feel like I have the absolute best job in the world because Iget to witness people actually step in with real courage on a regular basis and I get to see the fruits that come fromreal courage, real vulnerability shared with the right people in the right settings. And you know, you can’t youcan’t think your way out of an emotionally developed belief. You haveto feel your way out into a new thinking belief. Yeah. And uh we get to witness that everysingle day. And it’s like not only do we get get to witness it, but once in a while people think that we actuallyhelped them do it all. Yeah. When in reality something bigger isworking for them. Y um and and when they start to be willing to allow their hearts to connect toeverything else in them again, that’s really where the big changes start to happen. Ygood stuff, Tyler. Thank you for this discussion. And um I’m just glad I have a a brother and a partner on board thatthat sees it the same way. we that we wouldn’t be doing this for so long together like this if philosophicallywe didn’t align in terms of wanting this deeper recovery for people. So I’mgrateful for you and I’m grateful for all of the clients and people that I’ve worked with because I agree it’s thebest job in the world. Man, we get a front row seat to like the best thing in the world which is realpeople in a real arena facing their biggest fears and overcoming them through courage. shifting.It’s awesome. Yeah. Um, thank you guys. If this is beneficial, please like, subscribe,write reviews, share with your friends,