"I typically love everything you guys have to say, but the part about modesty in your last episode was disappointing. We are trying to teach our kids (girls- it’s always just girls) to be who they are and love themselves, but then we tell them exactly what that should look like. We define modesty and tell them if they respect themselves they’ll cover up. We tell them they aren’t responsible for the thoughts of others, but they need to consider the message they’re sending. You mentioned the importance of intention (totally agree with this), yet ultimately it was irrelevant if your daughter chose to show more skin that you wanted her to. Can you see how messy y’all made this? I think you need a redo. What if we teach self love and self respect and let our girls decide what that looks like? What if we focused on the intention behind their clothing and left it at that? What if the focus of the LDS church on defining modesty is exacerbating the problem? What if we all just left it alone?"
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2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess. What a deal. So, we if you're interested, if you're struggling, if you've been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we're also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you're a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you're saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That's exactly what I'm saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don't come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It's beyond therapy, the best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. Did we answer the question wrong about modesty?What's up you guys? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I'm Brandon. I'm Tyler. We're brothers.We're therapists. We're not afraid of your questions. So bring it.[Music]Have you wanted to overcome your sex addiction? Have you wanted to feel more powerful and empowered as a man andunderstand your masculinity and have more healthy relationships with your spouse? feel more purpose in your lifeand more connection to God, but you've tried a bunch of things and it just doesn't feel like things are gettingbetter. Maybe you've gone to a lot of therapy. You've talked through your problems, but you're still stuck. Youwant more. You want to feel more at peace and more empowered. That's why Tyler and I have developed aprocess and a program for men to come experience something different, to shiftout of the shame, shift out of the depression and the addiction and to actually experience feeling alive,stepping into your masculinity, feeling empowered. If you want information about thisexperience, go to risingssonconference.com. Now that's rising sun as in s onconference.com. Space is limited. The experience is going to change your life. It's going toshift you into the man that you really are, the man that God made. So go checkit out and we'll love to see you guys there. All right, before we get into that, that's an interesting questionbecause uh I usually don't get any questions wrong. I'm just kidding.Um, I'm actually really excited about this uh this episode because I love to be challenged and I love to exploretopics and um and dig deeper and a quote that I heard once is um you know anyargument that you lose you actually learn something. So an argument that you win you don't learn anything. So I'm nothere to argue with our guest today. I'm actually here to discuss with her and to explore this topic in more depth withher. So, I'm actually really excited to have her on and and for her to have enough courage to come on and just talkabout some of the things that she thought and some of the things she felt about our episode on modesty. So, we wetalked about I think it was maybe two or three episodes ago um and we weretalking about sexuality and accepting yourself with your sexuality and um andmodesty. And a common topic on our podcast is is about our kind ofreligious beliefs or our relationship with God and how sexuality fits intothat. And so we were having a discussion and Ashley was listening and she hadsome thoughts, some feelings and had some questions. So Ashley, welcome tothe show. Thank you. Yeah. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit and then just kind of askyour questions or share your concerns or whatever? Yeah. Um, my name's Ashley. I'm motherof four. I have two girls and two boys. And I I listened to that episode uhregarding sexuality slash I felt like it was more about modesty in general.And I just had a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction to some of the things that were said. So, I sent in a commentand here we are. Voila. Here you go. Yeah. Awesome. I have two girls and two boysas well. And uh it's interesting having boys and girls and kind of seeing seeinghow different they are. Yeah. As we as we talked, were you thinking more about your daughters?I was I was thinking about my daughters, but Yeah. Yeah. mainly about my daughters but kind of women in general.You know, I I am LDS, you know, raised in a very religious, somewhat strict family withlots of rules. And um I it was just one of those thingsI always struggled with and was just compliant because everyone else was compliant. But over the years, it's it'sstarted to be a little bit more frustrating for me. I've changed my views a little bit andbut definitely it's about my daughters and their peers, you know, girls ingeneral and and how we teach this concept. You know, it's been I think it's been a good thing overallthat we've shifted the focus from women and girls being responsible for the thoughts of men and boys and gettingthem on missions or, you know, whatever your denomination is or what whether your beliefs are. Um, that's beensomething that we've stressed a lot in my faith and I've I'm glad to see a bitof a transition where we've made it more about self-respect. I think that'sprogress. But now we've lumped everything into this category ofself-respect and morality and modesty as if modesty defined as it's been definedin my life determines my self-respect and determines my morality. And so Iguess I would just like to make sense of how those three things relate and ifthey relate because they aren't one and the same but I feel like they're spoken of as if they are.Right. So I I just want to kind of flush this out and clarify. So you were raisedpretty rigid religiously and taught taught certain things about modesty,right? And then um and then you say some things shifted for you.Um what what shifted for you? Well, I think that the way we taught modesty shifted. So there's one of theshifts. But for me, um, teaching my daughters that we have different rulesfor them than we have for boys. For instance, um, we didn't wear tank tops,you know, raising our girls when they were young. They couldn't show their shoulders. They had to have certain length of shorts and things like that.And yet the boys, and this is within my own family, friends, you know, extendedfamily, boys were wearing wife beater tank tops all the time. That that wasjust not the same thing. We were talking. It was something else. There was a double standard, wasn't there? There was a double standard. Yeah.And then, you know, when you look closer at the bikini situation, the two-piece situation of swimsuits for girls, youknow, yes, we have parts that we need to cover that they don't, but other than that, when did a girl'sstomach become sexual and a boy's didn't, you know, when why is that? I don't know. It just got so much biggeronce I started going down that road. Ashley, I want to share with you. So this uh is a quote from a church leaderin 1969 and I want to share share it with you and then just kind of get yourreaction and response. So consider the time 1969 and this was this was over the pulpit umand this is what was said. It says many of our women now feel obliged not only to display their badly shaped knees buttheir thighs as well. No woman looks as lovely as when she is properly and fullyclothed clothed. What woman can suppose that What woman can suppose that uglyknees and bony shoulder blades can add luster to their charm? I am on fire right now. I don't even somany thoughts that you don't even have time to hear today. But isn't that appalling?It's appalling. Yeah. And I uh you know, as you listen to our our episode on modesty, I whatyour reaction to it actually concerns me because um my take on it is much more inalignment with with you, I think, Ashley. And and in in no way do I wantto send any kind of message like like the one I just read, right? And I didn't take that. I hopeyou know that wasn't my takeaway at all. Okay. Okay. Yeah. No, I uh I think that that that type ofattitude actually um is well obviously verysexist. Mhm. But but also just very damaging to andshaming to especially a young a young woman's um just just selfrespect and who theyare. I right I I think that forcing somebody to outof shame and guilt to quote unquote cover upis is actually limiting their self-development. Um and soum we talked on our episode about intention, right? Um yeah, and a little bita little bit and I I think that's really kind of important. Um, I I think whatwhen you look at intention, if my daughter um, you know, got dressed up for school,let's say, and she was very she was showing a lot of skin. Is that okay?How do you define a lot of skin? See, I think but my my opinion and and reallytaking it back to the term of self-respect, I think we hear that a lot and when it was used on this episode, itwas used, you know, how it pertains to modesty. So, when we define what modestyis in the LDS church, for instance, we have the strength of youth. It tells you exactly what you can and can't show. Sowe've defined modesty and then we've made modesty a requirement for someoneto have self-respect which makes the opposite of that true as well. If you aren't modest as we've defined it thenyou are lacking self-respect then we've just told a woman or girl how she shouldfeel about herself. Yeah. Yeah. I Socan a woman wear a string bikini and have self-respect at the same time?Absolutely. I totally agree with you. Yes. So, I I I I I will not argue that. Ithink that but but here's the thing and and I think this is a hard thing for some people to understand.Um if they're if they're caught in a rigid belief system of of you know, alot of the stuff that's been taught like what we just heard that quote where it's like nope, they can't. Umthey don't love themsel if they're wearing a string bikini. That's not true. That's not true. I don't believethat. Um but it comes back to their heart, I think, a little bit and and right.Yes. Um is if I'm if I'm that woman wearing a string bikini and I'm doing it because Ifeel so low about myself and I'm trying to gain something fromsomebody or this or that. It's not done out of self-respect. If I'm that woman in a string bikini and I think I'mbeautiful and this is part of my sexuality and who I am, then I don't need to worry aboutcontrolling other guys lust or whatever. That's their job. Yeah. Right. Yeah.I'm I'm just being me and I'm enjoying the sun that I get to soak in because I'm in this bikini, right? Is is thatYeah. No, I totally agree. But I felt like, and and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in the episode we you didmention intention, but then um someone was shopping with their daughter for a swimsuit and she found a two-piece. AndI I felt like the intention part kind of went out the window. If she would havewanted that two-piece, then then it would have no longer been about intention. It would have been aboutabout modesty, about force. Yeah. I don't know how the discussion with her because there was a discussion in the store and then they came to anagreement that she got something else but you know point being and and was was the message kind of likeshe got something else and so that was the good thing like good she came to and she had selfrespect andyes we we convinced her that the two-piece was not a good choice even though that's what she gravitatedtowards for whatever reason and she made the smart choice right that that's what I took from thatI think I you have a really awesome perspective on this because of the way you were raised and then there's been ashift. Right. Right. And and I imagine it was hard for you toto like when that shift happened, it was probably a little uncomfortable because the old voices were like, "No, no, no.Cover up. Cover up. That's the right thing to do. That's the righteous thing to do." Right? There was this internal conflict for along time. Yeah. But then, but then did you realize that like when you didn't live in fear and control and trying to force yourdaughters to cover up and yourself to cover up that, oh my gosh, like I'm I'mnot going to die here. Like this is not horrible. I'm not a horrible sinner. I'm not Right. Is that kind of yourexperience? Yeah. and it almost went I wouldn't say a little too far the other way because I don't I don't feel like I'm extremeum in that way either. But it yeah, itwas just like I have been teaching my girls. I've been teaching young women. I've had this idea in my head my wholelife and it was really liberating to not feel that way anymore and to realizethat we're objectifying women when we discuss what they wear so much, youknow. Yes, there's objectification in in just the discussion that is so prevalent and thenthe judgment that goes along with being part of a religious community that has specific guidelines that everyone'saware of. Yes. And then when someone isn't compliant, you know, and they're doing somethingdifferently, then whether it's spoken aloud or not, there's judgment becausewe all know that you're not supposed to wear that and you're wearing that. Yeah. Yes. And so for me, why are wesaying what they should and shouldn't wear in the first place? Why are they making it, you know, why are we makingit about how you feel about yourself? Why are we making modesty, morality, andself-respect all part of the same conversation? Not that they don't ever relate, but they aren't one and the sameeither, right? I So I I really wish Tyler were here because he'd he'd probably have alittle bit of push back more. I mean, I I really feel like I'm I'm there with you, Ashley. Andum but okay, so I'll put words in Tyler's mouth here a little bit and and uh play the devil's advocate. Um I Iimagine him saying something like, "Well, okay. So, are we supposed to justkind of let our kids just wander around in whatever? Just just walk around nakedif they want to, or there's just no constructs and no limits. Is that isthat what we're supposed to do? I you know I thought a lot about that too, you know, and I think there willalways be people that define modesty still matters. We still are teaching something to our children. We Right.It's not a free-for-all. There have to be guidelines and there are certain parts that we want covered, but youknow, as far as um your straps need to be three inches thick instead of two oror you know, whatever, I think that that will always be personal. But I thinkonce our girls are teenagers at least, it should be more of an openconversation. You know, my as far as intentions go, my girls have gravitated towards bikinis their whole lives longbefore it was ever about attention or men and boys or anything like that. It was justcute. It was comfortable. They liked being more free. They liked the sun on their skin, you know, all of thosethings. And so I guess for me I I don't know when that shift went from beingcomfortable in their own skin and just free and happy tocover it up. But Ashley, they're going to make all those boys lust after them.The boys are going to lust after them anyway. Have you seen my girls? I love that answer.Yeah. Um so so and I hope you you guys the audience knows that was tongue andcheek of what I just said which is um you know in in in the book umcaptivating by John Eldridge and John Eldridge is a Christian author and hedoesn't write in there hey all the girls should just go wear string bikinis and enjoy it but the the the essence of thatbook is that um women want to feel seenand and beautiful and and I think we've kind of demonized that someof saying that that's wrong or that you know that's shouldn't be that way orthis or that. But I think a woman's sexuality very much is in many ways center centered aroundfeeling beautiful and and and feeling beautiful in in allthese ways and and we say no no no oh no you don't you cover up your shoulders.Um you you don't you don't show any of yourself here because and and thenI was reading another book by Napoleon Hill. It's called outwitting the devil. And he said our sexuality is like ariver. And if you dam it, if you put a dam over that river, event it'll buildup. It'll build up and then eventually it'll flow over the dam and keep going. And um and you know, it it reminds me ofkind of the the cultures that we've been raised in, Ashley, where it's like we try to put all these forceful constructsaround who we are sexually. And it actually in many ways causes us to umboil up and over and and act out sexually in all kinds of ways becausewe're so um confined and restrained in so many ways,right? I tell you pornography is such a huge problem within the church becausewe've made two-piece bikinis inappropriate. So, you know, boys are atgirls in two-piece bikinis. They're getting uncomfortable, but they're also curious and it it turns into more because we'vemade it so wrong that it's even all the more appealing. Well, on a biological level, um, whenyou when you think about that, your statement right there is really interesting. If I'm a if I'm a young manraised in a really rigid um religious slash you know sexual inter like a lotof rules around sex um if I look at a girl in a bikinium I'm doing something risky I'm doing something naughty um and and an elementthat element of risk actually provides a an an increase in a dopamine hit um toseeing that. And so if I go I look at pornography or if I walk down the beachand see girls in bikinis, I'm getting a much bigger hit because I've been raisedin this really rigid system because the the riskier it is, the more dopamine I get, the more exciting it is.And what do you know? Uh there's a lot of addiction going on. Um I I don'tquote me on this study, but I heard that um Muslims, Catholics, and Mormonsstruggle with sex addiction more than anyone else. Shocker. I believe that. Yes. Yes.Um totally makes sense. Yeah. Because it's pent up, right? And and you know II think like anything in life um balance is always good. Um but I think if Iapply any shame to my children especially my daughters about their bodies and or any guilt like your bodyis dangerous and bad and it's going to cause people to lust then I am not helping my daughters lovethemselves. Um, right. You know, if my daughter did want to go to school almost naked, I'd probably saylike, "Hey, like what's going on? Like, help me understand like where's this coming from?"Right? I wouldn't just smile and be like, "Hey, you be you." Like, just enjoy. ButI would I would try to understand like where what is her intention? Where's her heart? You know, where's she coming from?Right? I had a conversation with my daughter the other day. She had on some shorts and she's gotten really tall and so herbutt cheeks were hanging out. That's not okay with me. And so, but it turned into more of a conversation like you can'twear those shorts. I can see your butt. No, you can't. I said, "No, really, I can. Like, I did you know that I can?"And she said, "Well, no." So, maybe you should probably change because I don't think that's what youwanted to show. And she said, "No, I didn't." And that was done there. Look at that. That conversation'sawesome. Right. Um, but but you know, I think some people listening could say, "Well,have it one way or the other, Ashley. You're saying like, "Let them be them, but then at the same time, you're sayingcover up your butt cheeks, right?" Yeah. Yeah. But we didn't get super specific before wesaid that, but there are parts that I I do think it's absolutely okay that we require that they cover their privateparts. I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't meant to be seen indetail, you know. So, it's not that there should be any rules around this, but you know, so much of I shouldn't sayso much, but the conversation on that episode, you know, was about two-piece bathing suits. I felt like that's what alot of what we talked about. And so, there's a big difference between showing your butt and just wearing a two-piecebathing suit that covers the parts that need to be covered. I agree. And that would be where I stand on theissue. I agree there. And there's a difference between like this quote that I read that's full of kind of morality andrigidity and shame and and like being being a parent of heyI'm just going to reflect back to you that you're like your private parts are hanging out as you're as you're going outside like is that really what youwant to do? Right. And it's interesting your daughter's like oh no like oh yeah thanks for telling me mom. Right. Liketo to be able to kind of see that. Um, yeah. And there's a difference. There's a difference betweenum like s sending that energy of as a female your body is dangerous and um andyou need to hide it. Um and wearing that get you in trouble. I've heard that a lot too. Wearing thatis asking for trouble. That will get you in trouble, right? Um you know, another thing that shouldnever be said, right? And and I think I I mean I dothink the way we kind of present oursel in the world um and and this is withwhat we wear. It's also with um just energetically how we show up. Um we'regoing to attract certain things into our life. Um and soum I I do think being aware of who you are and what you're attracting isimportant, right? And so as long as you're conscious of it, I don't think we need to judge it. I don't think we needto put morality all over it. Um, but I do think it's helpful to be aware of, you know, what I put out tothe world is going to attract back into my life. Right. So, so here's a question for you. Is, andI'm not disagreeing, but I I just want I'm curious on this. Is that the same as intention? So, couldmy intention be one thing, but what you say I'm putting out to the world besomething else entirely, or are they one and the same? Yeah, that's a great question. It's a II would say that I might misinterpret your intention, you know? So,let's say your intention is to just feel alive and to feel good and to and to be freesome, right?And and I think, okay, your intention is to is to want a man to want you. And so,like, I'm going to go try to take advantage of of that and take advantage of you. Um, so like I'm judging itwrong. And so then I go over and I, let's say, I hit on you or I I saysomething inappropriate. In that moment, your intention is really, your energy isreally going to show itself. Your boundary is gonna show itself in that momentwhere you'll either entertain it. It's like, "Oh, good. I I used my body tobring this in because I I need this man to whatever, right? Validate me or something.Validate me, want me, whatever." Or you'd like slap, well, I shouldn't sayslap me in the face, but in a in a way, you'd just be like, "Uh-uh." Like, "No, not interested. I'm not interested in aman disrespecting me. No, thank you. I'm good. I'm alive. I'm free. I'm happy.So, so I I think that sometimes intention can get misinterpreted.Um, but actually, I am kind of weird and I talk about this all the time. Um, I dobelieve that energy can really be felt and so Oh, I totally believe that. Yes.Right. So, like if someone's kind of putting something out there, it's like,okay, like they'll attract men or or they'll attract women if they're a man.Um, that that really resonate and vibe with them there. And and so, um, I I I don't thinkintention is misinterpreted that often um because it because eventually theyvibe together or they don't. So, I don't know if I'm making any sense, but Yeah. No, no, you make sense.Yeah. Um, yeah. I just think there has been such aan assault on women's sexuality. Um, it's it's so interesting,Ashley, because it's like it's it's like both it goes both ways in our culture where it's like we go tochurch and it's like be modest, shut it down, shut it down, be modest. Then youturn on the TV and you turn on the halftime show of like the Super Bowl and JLo is like flaunting her backsideeverywhere, you know? It's just like sexuality like yeah blah blah and it's it's like on the biggest stage in theworld and everybody's watching. Um and so like talk about mixed messageseverywhere, right? It's so hard. It's hard and it's sad to watch our girls and even womentry to navigate that and find balance like you mentioned before, find a place where they're comfortable and andthey're not trying to meet anyone's expectations at all. It's all about them and and I think that's where the messagewe send gets a little complicated as well. How much energy, you know, if you if you want to use that term, how muchenergy or effort do we put into worrying about what others think versus how wethink and how we feel. Amen. Yep. I think at the core of all of this um is is real self-love andself-acceptance, whatever that looks like. Whatever that looks like, right? Um and and it's both for it'sinteresting for men and for women. me. The men I work with as a sex addiction therapist in Utah County are alwaysrejecting their sexuality and thinking that they are horrible and bad andmonsters and terrible because they're sexual beings. Um, right. And so there's that end ofend of it. Yeah. You know, I remember sitting in a group where there was like a magazine way up on a top shelf and it had like awoman's ankle on it or something like and and he's like, "Can we turn that magazine over because I don't want tolook at that because it's making Oh my word. Oh wow. Oh wow.Yeah. Um or Yeah. I tell the story all the time. the guy that took a double take atthe grocery store at a beautiful woman and went home and confessed to his wife a relapse and and he slept on the floorfor a week to punish. I heard that episode that that's heartbreaking. Yeah. So, so that there's those type ofexamples where the men are taking their sexuality and and demonizing it, right? And then theother side of it is in many ways, not across the board all the time, but thewomen are taught that that their sexuality, their their like enjoying feeling beautiful andfeeling seen and is bad and that they should shut that down and you know, theyshould totally cover up everything all the time. So Mhm. So we we have a culture that is isreally rejecting sexuality in many ways. And and I think at the crux of it isthis uh it's fear-based. So if we were to let go and accept our sexuality, Ithink there's a fear that we would all be having sex with all these people all the time and there would be no order andno whatever. And that's just not the that's not the case, right? If we were to accept our sexuality, thenwe would be more in healthy control of our sexuality.Um, and and not have to self-reject ourselves in order to be in thatcontrol. And yes. So how how do you live in an environment in a place like this in aculture like this that um like coming from the religious side of things thatis almost encouraging the opposite of what you're encouraging. you know, they're they're contributingto this idea that we have that is so unhealthy. And there's, you know, we'veseen progress, of course, but we're still stuck. You know, we're still stuck. And we have people like you thatare talking and sharing openly and giving great advice, but then we're hearing something elseentirely that that's not maybe not entirely, but there's still mixed messages even withinour religion that we're both a part of. I I Ashley, I think the the best thingthat that you can do and that I can do too is is what you're doing with yourkids is if we can teach our kids to not fall into those beliefs and teach themto love themsel and to um be aware of of uh what their intentions are and andalso have the courage to to be themsself as well, right? and be open and honestand vulnerable about it and not try to fit into the I'm going to be perfect mold where I'm wearing the, you know,the perfect thing or not lusting at all or whatever, right?Um, so like if we can teach our kids to be vulnerable and honest, that's thebest thing. Um, I I I I try to be an advocate and fight fortruth when it comes to sexuality, especially in our culture. And it's interesting. I love to put people inawkward positions. So, I love to get people at church to admit that they're sexual beings.And it's a it's a fascinating thing because everybody knows it deepdown. Everybody knows it. They know everyone around everyone else knows that we'resexual beings. Yeah, we have to obviously. Well, that's why that's why we're here.Um but um nobody likes to to admit it because sex automatically is sin andshameful. And the truth is is it's not. It's it's beautiful and it's wonderful. And sowhen you go to church and you kind of push people to to think that way and to admit to themselves that yes, I am asexual being. Um it's this kind of like paradigm shift of wait, we're sitting inchurch and I can accept my sexuality. Huh? Yeah. Like that's a reality. Like this guyI love that you that. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, Ium I appreciate like really appreciate this conversation. UmI do too. Thank you for giving me the chance. And dang it, we didn't disagree that much. We didn't have much to argueabout, Ashley. So I can come back another time and disagree with you if you would like, butno, I actually agree with you 99% of the time. So it might not be No, this is a great discussion and onethat obviously I'm passionate about. So that's why we talk about it quite a bit on the podcast. Um enough with peoplerejecting themselves and feeding messages of shame and self-rejection.I'm I'm done with that. So um to have conversations like this helps to flushout the seeds of where that shame is planted. And so I really appreciate it, Ashley. Thank you so much for for comingon. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. All right, we'll see you later. You guys, if you liked this episode, don'tforget to share it and to leave a review. And as you can tell, we loveyour feedback and we love your questions. That's why Ashley's here today. So, um, please leave us a question at therapy.com. We'll see youguys. Heat.Heat. [Music]