"I was raised in a religious conservative home. Pornography was sin, sex outside of marriage was sin and only for the marriage bed. My dad never talked to me about my body or being confident in it. We were directly taught to be modest but indirectly we were taught shame of ourselves and our bodies. Taboo like nudity's constant association to sex have riddled our minds with a lack of confidence in our own bodies. Of course this negativity is only doubled down on by the perceived perfect body images of stardom, Hollywood, pornography and marketing. It wasn't until I was nearly 30 that I became confident and happy with my own body and only recently did I become confident with (as funny as it is) my chest hair. With most of the religious from my generation being raised with skewed sexuality, how do we raise our children with confidence in their bodies and a proper perspective of nudity and sex while still adhering to scripture's mandates?"
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2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess. What a deal. So, we if you're interested, if you're struggling, if you've been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we're also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you're a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you're saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That's exactly what I'm saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don't come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It's beyond therapy, the best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. Does God want me to be sexual?What's up you guys? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I'm Brandon. I'm Tyler. We're brothers.We're therapists. We're not afraid of your questions. So bring it.[Music]Do you feel like no matter how much therapy you do, things really aren'tgetting better? That you'd like to accelerate your feelings of peace and empowerment because it's just nothappening as a man. Do you feel stuck? Do you lack purpose? Do you not knowwhat real masculinity is? Are you unable to create safety and passion andintimacy in your relationships? Are you lacking connection to God? If you'rerelating to any of these things, then you need to come to our Rising Sun Conference. Tyler and I have developed aprocess and an experience for men to shift into their power, to know who theytruly are, to experience their purpose, and learn how to connect to God. So goto risingssonconference.com. Now that's rising sun as insenconference.com and sign up there as soon as you can because space is limited. We'll see youthere. All right, Brandon, this is going to be a fun one today. This is one of my favorite topics. I know you you have like a passion forthis. you love to try to like kind of like mle over this one along with acouple of other topics, but well, our guest is going to tee this up perfectly and hopefully bring some uhsome different angles to it that we haven't explored before. So, and uhYeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're excited to have a guest on today. Um Mitchell, welcome tothe show. Thank you for your willingness to come on and share your questions. Glad to have you.Hey guys, great to be here. Always enjoying the podcast and and your banter back and forth and the good open, honestdiscussions uh about all kinds of different topics. Awesome.Yeah. Well, Mitchell, yeah, go ahead. Why don't you just jump in and kind of share whatever details you need to aroundthe backdrop behind your question and then ask your question. We'll we'll get started. Okay. I'm, you know, I was raised in arigid rel religious conservative home and, you know, always taught from theBible and taught scriptures and taught morality and taught uh modesty, you know, but now having going through myown journey of of freedom and from addiction and things like that andhaving a daughter and hopefully one day more children, but uh it kind of bringsthe question to my mind, you know, I was raised uh with modesty as as such a pillar thatI think that modesty brought about a lot of shame about my own body.Um you know I didn't wear shorts and didn't wear tank tops and and wasashamed of my chest hair and all that like all kinds of realms of body shame Ithink. Mhm. And as I look back and review, I think a lot of my my childhood and my upbringingbasically kind of uh cemented some of that into me and developed that into me,this like shame because of the extreme level of of modesty that was eithertaught from the pullpit or taught at home, you know, and then my dad was kind of disconnected. And so from him, youknow, if I accidentally walked in the room on him changing or something, you know, the door was basically slammed inmy face. And you know, so it was never I never saw any kind of body positivityout of him either. And for me, you know, having a child, I don't want to raise mychild against scripture or anything like that, but I also want her to be, youknow, um, proud of her body and comfortable in her body and not ashamedof her body. It's like for me, I can, my wife and I had this discussion several weeks ago when we first got married. Iwas terrified to be naked in front of her, you know, horrified. Mhm. And yet with all the excitement of ofsex and that sort of thing that it brought, I was like terrified to get naked in front of her, probably for a long time, you know,and so it took me years. I'm 34 now. Took me years to where I would wear shorts. That's probably like in the lastfive years. And you know, or wear my take my shirt off outdoors when it's hotand warm, whatever. Took me years to get that away. Mhm. And uh so that would be my question ishow do we how do we train our children on that fine line of of morality andmodesty but also confidence in themselves and in their bodies. Andthat's where I'd go from there. It's a great question. It's a really good question. Mitchell, can I ask you another kind of follow-upquestion before we kind of dive into some of this stuff? Um you said you were raised this way.What were some of the specific ways that you were taught modesty? Uh what werethe messages you received? What were the methods that you learned modesty or at least the version of modesty that youwere taught? Um, probably a lot of, you know, itseems like modesty when you're taught it, a lot of it is pointed at at in the church is pointed at women more oftenttimes, you know, and skirts and dresses and, you know, not showing their cleavage and, you know, skirts aboutbelow the knee and all that good stuff, you know. But for men too, I think it's kind of a side.It's not as direct I think with men a lot of times in the church, you know, but I I grew up in church where it wassuit and tie and and that sort of thing, but you know, not wanting to tempt theopposite sex with your body. Kind of more along that line would be more specific, I would say, of how I wastaught, you know, not tempting someone to be sexually drawn to you. essentiallyless specific for males than it was, you know, very specific for females as faras how they should dress and not dress and, you know, not wearing two-piece string bikinis or whatever. You know,if if we were to dig down even further, um, because I I want to get to thebeliefs that this rigid modesty systemactually starts to develop. And so I mean it's one thing to be like hey likecover yourself up because like God wants you to cover yourself up like that we hear that at church we you know but thenyou take a little kid and by the way it sounds like a little kid who's alsoexperiencing some father wounds um some emotional neglect or whatever it may be.Um so you take a rigid system a rigid a rigidly moral system. So, it's it'sreally kind of um confusing because to be good and to get God to love me, Ineed to be I need to fall into line with this rigidity, right? And then you takefather wounds on top of that and you're really creating a recipe for faulty core beliefs. And I guess my question to you,Mitchell, is the the message of cover up, be modest,don't be sexual. Uh, how did you interpret that for yourself?How did I interpret it? Um, probably that, you know, kind of theroad you're going down like sexuality, sexualized, that whole thing is basically wrong.The sexual side of you is essentially wrong unless it's only expressed in in ain a marriage relationship. Like, that's the only place. But but let's take let's take it further, Mitchell, becauseyou're even saying I I have a hard time I or I had a hard time being naked in front of my wife,right? And so the the same question of what is what is your faulty core beliefs that you developed as a child is whatare you afraid of when when you get naked in front of your wife, right? Doyou see what I'm saying? Mhm. Uh, you know, which that's been a quite a while ago now, thinking about what Iwas afraid of. I, you know, some of it I think is theself-image that I had. You know, that that my body wasn't good enough. Uhhuh. Is is kind of what I think. Uh, youknow, I was kind of the skinny type. um you know I didn't fit the image thatI that you see out there whether it be through uhyou know the underwear models or whatever pictures up on the billboard or the movie you know the whole image thatyou have out there this idea of masculinity which y'all talk about a lot right masculinity in a man and what that lookslike as we as I grew up through the 90s there was a very specific image of thatyou know that was that cleancut male, you know, didn't have hair on his body and all this kind of a specific image.And I didn't see myself as as as what that image of a masculine male was, Ithink. And so I think I was ashamed that I wasn't that,if that makes sense and gets any deeper. I don't know. Absolutely. So, so I think you'rebringing another piece of the recipe into play of just body image and shameum about just feeling like you're not enough. But it's this confusing thing of cover yourself up. It's dangerous. Yoursexuality, your your body is dangerous. But then there's this other part that's like and your body's flawed. It's notgood enough. um you're not you're not man enough, you know, and and you cansee how it can lead to just not wanting to be vulnerable and and not wanting tobe um fully fully realized in terms of your sexuality. So, Tyler, any otherthoughts? Yeah, I was just going to say like you just perfectly painted that picture of the dueling messages that are going on,especially for a boy as you're being raised between that. I I I don't know that you were taught the why behind thecover up in a proper way and then you're living in a world where there's thisprojected image of what perfection is and what you should be as a man or you know a lot of times the media is pushingthis for women even more so but we this is the perfect image of who you shouldbe now you're being taught don't don't show any of that stuff but that's what you should look like especially afteryou're married and then there's this mix of emotions because there's the internalnatural maturation that's going on that's going like I do have sexual feelings but now maybe I shouldn't havethem and now maybe because I'm a little bit weak and scrawny or not like what the billboard shows is I'm never goingto be desirable to somebody and that's what Brandon's talking about like false core beliefs come in is oh now this isthis is going to have an impact on my ability to establish relationships with people it's going to have an impact on my confidence it's going to probablyhave an impact on my relationship with God in terms of how I see myself in thecontext text of my relationship with God. And uh and these dueling messages actually leave the person, you Mitchell,it sounds like a perfect example of this, in a state of pure confusion and this like place of like frustration andfear now instead of confidence in knowing who you are. Yeah.And your true nature. Yeah. Well, I think as you throw in to the the the the weak father figure, forlack of better terms right now of putting it, you know, and not having that input on top of the other messagesthat are coming in and it just compounds it even more. But I think this is way more common and y'all bring this uppretty often, too. I think this is way more common in our society today thanwhat we like to realize or admit to in our society. This lack of father figureand and all these messages that are coming in and and I think there's way more people similar to me than than wereally know. But but you know the tricky thing and this is Tyler, you bring up that this is one of my favorite topicsand it is one of my favorite topics because there's this really trickyum thing that the adversary does like just just tricky and it it's this.Um, we're going to we're going to teach you that modesty is is like the way. And andin doing so, we're going to we're going to act as if with this rigid sexualitybeliefs, we're going to act as if that is coming from God. That is of God,right? And so it it's very rigid. It's very shut down your sexuality. Don'tshow your body. don't do this thing. Um, andit's it's taught as if that's the righteous thing to do. Andthe adversary wants to attack and assault sexualitymore than almost anything because that's our creative power. And in many ways, that's our our our way toself-realization and and knowing who we are. And I mean,it's it's so much more important than just getting off than just like enjoyingsex. It's it's about understanding ourselves on some of the deepest deepestlevels. And if from a really young age, the first messages you're getting areshut it down, shut it down, shut it down. Oh, by the way, when you're 10, you find porn, so open it up completely,but just hide it. um and feel worse about it because now it's really bad,right? And then that assault has fully taken place and the shame has set in andthe adversary has has his he's doing his thing. It's working now, right? He's doing he's doing his thing insidethe context of religion, which is pretty insidious if you think about it because it's being purported as, you know, asrighteousness. And Brandon, like do you I don't know if you were there or not when we were boys. We went to a fireside, you know, a church fireside ona Sunday afternoon and the the topic was modesty and the person giving the like presentation had this like beautifulcake and they like asked everybody if they wanted a piece of cake and everyone like raised their hand like I want a piece and then they kind of like walkedaround it and like coughed over it and and like put their hands in it and then they're like do you want do you want apiece of cake now? And everyone's like, "No, I don't want a piece of cake." You know, and then they're like, "That's what it's like when you mistreat yourbody, you know, like, you know, it's like it's just like pure just like thepoint is, hey, look, respect your body and you want to keep yourself pure, right?" But the way the messaging goeswhen there's not education behind it is that every kid walks out of that goinglike, "Oh crap, like maybe I'm the maybe I'm the flawed piece of cake now." You know, like like umYeah. You're the dirty thing that no one wants. Yeah. And I think that that's Yeah. I I think the other the other side tothis though is that people like us sometimes go the otherend of the spectrum and we get on our high horse and it's like f modesty. Do whatever you want. Show your body. It'swonderful. It's like actually I I think that maybe more in the middle ground is is that we should be teaching the whybehind modesty in a different way. We should be teaching exactly what Mitchell's talking about here, which isyou should you should love and respect and be comfortable with your body. Andpart of respecting your body would include modesty, but okay. Okay, Tyler, I want to I Iwant to go down this line a little bit. And Mitchell, I hope you don't mind that I do this, but Mitchell's wearing a tanktop. Mhm. You should see his face like, "Oh, oh no. M Mitchell, you must have done somework, right? Cuz here you are on a podcast talking about your sexuality, your body image, and you're wearing atank top. So, you must have done some work. But Mitchell's wearing a tank top. Tyleris uh Is he the dirty piece of cake? Yeah.Of course not. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I'm think this is kind of where Mitchell's going is is that he hegrew up in a way where he was never comfortable with his own body. He's, you know, Mitchell, fill in the gaps whenI'm done here. But, um, he's worked really hard to get comfortable with his own body. And Mitchell, I don't, you'refine if you wear a tank top. I think the judgment part is where we would probably get, this is a massive problem in the Christian religion is is that you and Icould sit here and look at Mitchell and be like, "Sinner, dirty piece of cake." It's like, no, Mitchell needs to do heneeds to work out his own relationship with God and his body with God, and therest of us should probably back off on that a little bit. Um, but what I would say, Brandon, is I've got a father. I'ma father of four daughters, and I do want my daughters to love theirbodies and to understand the reason why modesty would be taught in a Christiansense other than the shaming part of it. No, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. To love their bodies. Wouldn'tthat mean to show their cleavage and show their shoulders and like like bethem and be who they are? Wear a bikini.I want to ask Mitchell, what do you think, Mitchell? Um,oh, that's the hard question, isn't it? cuz cuz you get right back into that religious side of it where you know youyou see you see the Christian young lady that wants to wear the two-piece, right?And all of a sudden now we're in that judgmental side of it of oh no, she's she's wrong. She's sinful. She's she'suh you know attracting people and making people think sexual things. When on the real side of it, we know that you canhave somebody wearing bed sheets and a male can undress them just as quickly as they can somebody in a bikini. Yeah.And have and fantasize about them just as quickly. Um, butyou know that's that tough part of where do we what's what's okay and what's notand what's you know and teaching my daughter you know what's that line thatI don't that I don't allow her to cross that I'm not comfortable with where I'm not crushing her her umher self-image her body image and getting into that judgmental side of it And Ito to me to me you guys it's all about intention. It's like if my daughter'sand we're talking about little girls because I think they get attacked with this modesty thing worse than anybody.Um, but if if my daughter is, you know, going to school hardly wearing nothingbecause deep deep down she doesn't have a a sense of self and know who she isand she wants a boy to want her so bad because she desperately needs some love.Um, then I I I don't know if that's, you know, that's that's not healthy.It's not healthy to try to use that sexuality to fill in the the gap of thatlow self-worth, right? Um, do you understand what I'm saying, Tyler? Yeah. No, I I think you're using a wordyou're using the word intention. Yeah. And and the word I I I love that wordthat you're using because I think that's at the core as well as another word that's coming to my mind which isobjectification. So, and it goes along with this idea of intention which is if my if if if memyself I'm wearing something so that I'm objectifying myself and I'm trying tofind my value by becoming an object that would that that doesn't that doesn'tcome from a place to me of knowing who I am and respecting my body and and lovingmyself that way. Whereas whereas, you know, if I'm if I'mback to intention, if I'm if I'm not objectifying myself, then that'sprobably more in line than even lining out the specifics of well, a two-pieceas long as it's this big or, you know, I I don't know that the I don't know that the logistics of it like the specificsof it are as important as what you said, the intention and am I objectifying myself? Yeah, it's this is aninteresting discussion because as a dad, um, if my daughter's like, "Dad, I want to wear the two-piece because I enjoythe sun on my belly. I like I really I like I can feel the breeze more. It justit's it's it's just like I feel beautiful and I feel sexy and when whenI can just get some sun and could I could I really be like okay daughter like enjoy you know because there's thatpart of me that's very much steeped in the modesty thing that'd be like no no no cover it up um which notice I saidcover it up cover up it her body it but you're objectifying her at that point to the other way. Yes. Through themodesty. Right. So, um I I this thisweek I had an interesting experience. I was I was meeting with my staff and umwe got in this conversation about how sees so certified sex addictiontherapists are oftentimes in fact usually in conflict with sex therapists.So um seesats are about treating sex addiction and having people not act outsexually, right? Um sex therapists are about sexual self realization andexpression and all of those things, right? Um in fact, there's some trainings where um watching porn is partof their training to become a sex therapist. Um, and what I was saying tomy staff is look, I, you know, seesats are at at odds with sex therapists because they fight about this, you know,seesats are saying, "Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down." And sex therapists are saying, "Amp it up. Ampit up. Amp it up." And but there's a there's this either sideis is problematic if you take it too far. And we talk about this a lot. Valerie Hammacker did when she was aguest on the show did a great job of explaining how um the the river and thedialectic between the two. The church is on one side really really really really rigid. The porn industry is on the otherside really really really chaotic and either side is going to hurt you. Andit's the same thing with therapy. I I said to my staff I said make no mistake about it you guys. We may be sexualaddiction therapists. We are sex positive. We We like know that we're sexual beingsand we are sex positive. Being sex positive does not meanlike go run around naked, right? It means Yeah. Go ahead.Or Brandon, like I want to throw a question back at you with being sex positive. Then if you have one of your clients come out or your and we'retalking about intention and your or your or your daughter comes to you later on in life and she's like, "Hey, I'mfeeling so beautiful in my own body and I've got this chance for free expression and Playboys asked me to be theircenterfold and I'm just going to do it because it's artwork and it's beautiful. Is that sex positive?"I want to know Mitchell's answer on that. Uh well, I think that the the theintention and the the purpose behind Playboy is objection is isobjectification. So I don't think that would be a verya very good choice for her. Yeah, I I I I agree with that answer is but but butthere's a there's something we need to talk about a little bit here before we just jump to you better not, right? WhatI' what hopefully I'd have a good enough relationship with my daughter to have a discussion and say like tell me moreabout your intentions. Um like where where is this coming from for you? Um,and why would this be something that you feel like could be really good for you? So, instead of just like, "No, you don'tcover it up. You better not." I connect to her and I know her and Iunderstand her and and and to be honest with you guys, I'm probably more likelyto influence her not to do it if that's what I how I approach it with mydaughter. Well, because you're going to have her on your team, right? like you're you're now showing interest in her. You'reshowing curiosity with what her intentions are. And I think it gives you the opportunityto also have influence. And the word that I'm thinking of right now is education, you know. So, it's like we wewent we went on a trip to Hawaii last year. We took all our girls to the store to get bathing suits. They all tried on a bunch of bathing suits and one of mydaughters tried on a bathing suit that was that didn't have a lot of materialon it, you know, and uh and she came out and she like said, "Hey, I look I lookbeautiful. Like this looks awesome, you know." And me and my wife looked at her and said, "Okay, well, what what do you like about it?" You know, and then shetold us and then afterwards we sat down and we said, "Hey, look, you also got to consider these things as well." Andthere we as parents I I I feel like there is an obligation that I have as a father to do some educating. And sothat the key the key is that I think we try to do the educating with curiosity and understanding and with with trulytrying to teach principles instead of just laying down the rules. And uh by the end of the night she hadput that bathing suit back on the rack and she picked a different one. and um she was still happy with it and that wasokay. But but we can't I I think we can't absolve ourselves of the responsibility to teach. It's just thatthe teaching should be done in a more I I think too often as parents we get sosuch a knee-jerk reaction because we're so afraid that we just lay down the rulewithout without the the learning that goes with it.Yeah. Yeah, the what Mitchell you were describing um is what Tyler's talking about from from what I see where whereit really becomes problematic in terms of our sexuality and it is when I seepeople coming from a rigidly disconnected family. So rigid withreligion and and the father wounds or mother wounds that are are about abandonment, disconnection and neglect.That's where somebody really just just kind of survivesthrough their shame in a lot of ways. Uh do do you know what I mean by that? They they they they don't know who they are.They don't have anybody safe to talk to, to understand their body, to and so theytheir shame says shut it down, hide, um, act out, do do whatever you need to doin order to survive because there's not this safe ground. And and Tyler, that's whatyou're talking about with your daughters, Mitchell. That's kind of what I'm hearing happen to you as a child,right? Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of times in the religious side of things, we we hammer down these rules and expectations and standards withoutgetting into just what you're talking about down to the why and why this is why this is important,why we do this, you know, why we don't wear that or whatever the case is. Not even just outside of sexualization. We don't evenget into these things. We just hammer down the rules and regulations. Expect the kids to follow them, discipline themif they don't. Uh don't ask me why I told you. You know, we kind of get intothat a lot. I think on the religious side of uh in the religious community.Yes. And that doesn't help kids. No, I agree with you, Mitchell. Brandon, I want to ask you another questionbecause I can I'm sitting here trying to think of what it's like to be a listener right now. And I let's just say we'vegot some listeners right now who are Christian with children saying, "Okay, I definitely don't want to shame mychildren, but I still feel like I got to teach them like what would a conversation actually look like or soundlike?" Like where would you start? What would it look like if if I was to have these kinds of conversations with mychildren? Um, yeah. I mean, I taught a lesson in church two weeks ago, and it was it'svery different than than the knee-jerk reaction for a parent. Like, the knee-jerk reaction is, "Child, let mesit you down and let's talk about your sexuality." Um, and let me tell you why,you know, this is healthy and this is not and that's that that's not going towork. Um, it's it's more than just a conversation.Um, it's more than just a dialogue. Like let me give you an example. Yesterdayum I got home from work and my wife I was in the kitchen. My wife gave me a big hug right in the kitchen and we justkind of started cuddling with each other right there in the kitchen and um and mythree kids were sitting there at the kitchen table and there me and my wife in some ways we were being sexual. weweren't doing anything but you know there there was that energy there of oursexuality and our love and connection for each other. Um, I didn't sayanything to my kids in that moment, but I did send them a message that that thisis okay, you know, and I didn't. Now, now there is a line I believe and Iactually, if I can get a little bit deep here, I don't believe that line is secrecy. I believe it's sacred. So,there there's a line that I'm not going to cross in front of people when it comes to sex. um because I believe it'ssacred and I believe it's between me and my wife, even from my kids, right? So,to some degree, I'm showing them, hey, sexuality is okay. To another degree, I'm showing them boundaries because I'mnot going crazy here in the kitchen, right? So, c can you see what I'm doing,guys? I'm not even having a conversation with them, but I I'm teaching them something. And um the energy in thehouse is very open about talking about who you are and and what sex is. So diddid I answer your question? No, I think you're it's a great start. Basically what you're saying is you'resaying it's more than just a single conversation. It's a way of living where you're stepping into things and youidentified two things and I think this is kind of a doctrinal thing that we can talk about and that that if if I'm aChristian person, I'm wondering how to use the doctrine in a healthy way. We were given two gifts by just by comingto this earth. And the two gifts that we received was a physical body to haveexperience with and to learn with. And it happens to be an imperfect body that's going to cause us problemssometimes. And we were given the gift of personal choice. So, so in the contextof living our lives, God expects us to take those two gifts. It's the parableof the talents. And he expects us to either magnify those two gifts. Preach on, Tyler.We or we won't. And let's preach on. Sorry. Preaching the sermon now.I love it. Amen. Keep going. But Brandon, like I'm bringing it back to what you're saying is that's whatyou're saying between boundaries and also expressing love. It's like you're using those two gifts in a way now thataligns itself with what what I believe the commandments of God would say, which is to amplify those gifts in ways thatare pleasing to God by using your choice. And um and those two things Ithink are things you can come back to over and over again with your children. like, hey, you've got this gift andyou've also got your choice and and how is this going to how is this going to be like, you know,I'm actually hearing, Tyler, in in what you're saying, Mitchell, what I'm hearing is that you had neither. Is itthat the rigidity and the morality like high morality was you don't have a choice, you just do this, right?And the the the second piece to it was your body's not a gift. like your body'sdangerous and a problem in in many ways. Is thatYeah, I would say that's pretty accurate. Yeah. Not that direct message, but you know, spoken in that that way. It'svery indirect and probably assumptive as a child, you know, and without that direction fromthe parent, you know, the child is left to fill in those gaps. And I think more often thannot, we go into those extreme sides. Yes. And filling in those gaps withextremities. I think one thing that that has doesn't really get said is this is if I want mychildren to be happy and healthy and in terms of their sexuality, um,you know, it it has nothing to do with me talking to them about sex or their bodies. It has everything to do withwith me doing what I can not to wound them and to just know for them to knowthey're loved. Um for them to know that they're okay as they are. And if theyhave that from me, then all these conversations about sex and body and all those things, those will naturallyhappen. Um because they're learning, they're growing, they're developing. If theydon't have that from me and then I go and I try to have all these conversations, then it's it's not goingto work, right? Living that lifestyle is is to mewhere where you're hitting at. You know, you live that lifestyle, have that conversation type lifestyle wherethey're not just sitting down and having rules and regulations and hearing the wise, but seeing seeing the wise, seeingwhy we're doing this and living this way and how it is to live this way. Yeah. IfI go out to the beach or to the mall or something and I'm making comments and judging everybody in a tank top, um Iyou know, and then and then I smile to my daughter. I'm like, "Hey, let's just talk openly about, you know, but it'sagain, it comes back to the lifestyle, right? It comes back to who am I? What messages am I sending?" Um and and justbeing aware of that. Those are the dialogues in many ways that are not spoken directly but indirectly given.I'm thinking of a the the quote you hear all the time about how to how you knowparents ask how you should raise a child if you're a Christian parent and that that quote that comes up that says you should teach them correct principles andthen let them govern themselves. And uh I think I think the idea behind that isexcellent as long as we say teach them a full set of you know correct principles.So yeah, if you're going to teach the kids about modesty, you should also teach them about choice. And Brandon, what you're saying is even furtheranother correct principle is of their lovability as they are.Correct principles is not fear and control. Right. That is not those are incorrect principles. Right? In fact, in fact, Godis love. And so, we should teach our children to operate from a place of lovefor themselves and others first, and then they can go and make the rightchoices based on a knowledge of who they are in God's eyes instead of who they'renot. Mitchell, I think you've uncovered another uh you've uncovered another likeTyler's next career. Like, Amen. He's a pastor. You know,this is great. He's doing good. Brandon's gonna give me a hard time about this for a long time, Mitchell.No, I love it. I really do. That's We'll get to hear about it.Well, Mitchell, I don't know if we've even gotten all the way down to your questions yet. Anything else on your mind? Other questions?Um, how do I guess probably like how do we counter the what's being placed infront of them in the culture? You know, the culture is putting it everywhere. It's in the kids shows and thetelevision shows and the billboards and on the packaging and in the mailoutsthey send. And you know, how do we continue to specifically battle thoseimages that they're being shown as as this is, you know, a male, this is afemale. I know part of it obviously is how we live again and what we display in front of our kids, but the images are sostrong and the force is so strong from the outside on these false images or uhperceived perfect images. Uh how do we how can we specifically battle againstthose? I think most parents try to make their kids avoid all of that stuff. And uh Iyou're just pointing it out, Mitchell, is that it's kind of unavoidable. You know, if we take a trip, we live in Utah. If we take a trip to California,we're going to drive through Las Vegas, but I'll I'll just be honest that the billboards in Salt Lake City are just asbad as the ones in Las Vegas now in terms of objectification, right? So, it's it's it's everywhere.I don't know about that, but Well, Brandon, I don't know, man. I swear I swear to you that Utah's got tobe like the plastic surgery capital of the world. Well, yeah. Okay. But yeah, Vegas is awhole new level. You're right. It's it's a it's a different level. Either way, there's objectification going on, right? In theway things are presented because sex sells and that's the way it works. And what most parents will do is like turn your heads or cover your eyes or, youknow, and I I don't know that that's the right response. I I actually wonder if sometimes leaning yourself into andthrough it with education and discussion is maybe a more effective thing to do, which is like to kind of make makethings pretty open and transparent as they're unfolding with their kids and use it as an opportunity to teach. Youknow, something pops up on a movie. Yeah. Why don't you stop it and have a conversation and even ask first like,"Hey, what are you noticing or what are you guys feeling or what are you guys thinking or you know, do you have questions about this stuff?" Um, andthen it'll lead into an opportunity to have that discussion to teach those correct principles.So, what do you think? I think Sorry. No, go ahead, Mitchell. I think it is basically in this day andage is unavoidable. Yeah. you know, with the media that's out there, the access on our phones,devices, your kids' friends have phones and devices, the ability to control likewe did through, you know, the 80s, the 90s, whatever, is going well beyond our reach asparents. It's just slipping away from us because the access is so great. And whenyou just teach your kids the thing to turn your head, turn your head, kids, you know, at the billboard or whatever, I think you're driving them driving theminto that place of secrecy to where in the future they're going to it's going to they're going to find it and see it.Not necessarily pornographic even, just, you know, flesh. They're going to seeflesh. They're going to see the material. It's going to be presented to them. And if all we do is teach themwhen they're with us to turn their heads, you know, I don't think that they're going to necessarily do that when we'renot with them. I just think if we think of kind of the end goal as dads, um I Iwant my kids to live lives of purpose umto step into courage to uh you know likedo what God has made them to do. I also want them to have really healthyrelationships and deep levels of intimacy and love in their lives becauseI think that's one of the best things in life, right? Um so like I would love itif that's what happened with my children. And so if we rewind it backwell to now and we look at okay in today as I'm talking to my kids if those aremy goals then my ultimate goal for my children when I when I look at healthyrelationships stepping into purpose and having courage there's one thing thatthat creates all of that and that's living a life of real actual faith andcourage. and not a life of fear and shame. And soit whatever I do as a dad, if my son looks at porn today and I take thatopportunity to drive shame home and tell him how disgusting and wrong he is fordoing that, I'm not I'm not helping him in terms of what I hope happens in hislife. If my son looks at porn today and let's say let's say he's wearing aspeedo and he's looking at porn like he's as immodest as can be lookingat porn, right? Um, if I take that opportunity to help him learn how toconnect, to talk openly, to have hard conversations, to um to to express who he is, then I'mactually helping the situation, right? And and it's my job to teach and it's myjob to provide some structure there. Um, and and that's an important side of the fathering, right? But doing that withoutthe shame, without the control, without the fear-based model of trying to gethim to be what I want him to be, which takes more work in some waysbecause we have to be cultivating our own heart in order to step into that space with our child instead of just laydown the rules. Exactly. So Mitchell, it's been a pleasure havingyou here today. Um, I think you're a courageous man coming on asking these questions, dude. I love you, man. Yeah. Thank youfor coming and having this discussion. No, thanks for having me. And I love how you wore a tank toptoday. I do too, man. Yeah. Seriously, Mitchell, thank you. Thank you for uhyour willingness to come on and share. It's amazing. This is a principle of truth that vulnerability yieldsconnection. And I know I Bren and I both feel connected to you. We've never even met you before. And I can tell you thatI know that people who are listening will also be connected because they're struggling with the very same question.So, thank you for your willingness to put yourself in the arena today. You're welcome. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks, Mitchell. We'll seeyou. All right. We'll see you. [Applause][Music] [Applause][Music] [Applause] [Music]