Does Religion Really Cause Sexual Shame?

Does religion really cause sexual shame? What's up, Brandon? What's going on,man? Not much. I got a question for you. Oh, no. I'm always scared of your questions. Oh, this is a good one. This is just anice one. Okay. What's your favorite Christmas song?Oh, my favorite Christmas song. Yeah. Look, you got caught off guard that I asked a nice question. Well, yeah. Like, I'm I'm just wonderingwhere this is going. I'm in the spirit of Christmas. I feel like I'm getting set up for bug Tyler.You like gearing in to be Scrooge this year or what? Like just asking what your favorite what your favorite Christmassong is. I don't know. I always default. It's probably not actually my favorite one, but it's in the favorites. Um I alwayskind of default to something like the little drummer boy. I knew you'd say that. How did you know that?Be because your mom's son. Like I love that. I love the humility of thelittle drummer boy. Yeah, I knew you'd say little drummer boy. Why did you ask, Brandon? What's your favorite?Well, I mean, I asked cuz it's the Christmas season. I love the first Noel. Because I I love harmonizing with dadwhen I sing. Oh, man. Of course you're going to say that because at every family party when dad he does this thing where he like,"Hey, let's sing a song together." And then he'll call on somebody else and he'll be like, "Hey, what song should we sing?" And before they can answer, he'slike, "Okay, let's do the first Noel." And then then he just starts singing the first Noel and he he loves to he lovesto sing the harmony part of the first Noel. I love singing it with dad and it's justbeautiful. But when the two of us sing it together. Wow. Oh man.It's like the Mormon tabernacle choir. We got to have dad on the show this holiday season before Christmasand sing the first Noel together. Just the two of you guys. Yes. Um well um it's the Christmasseason. We love we love it. So merry Christmas everybody as we get into this.Um but we got a we got a really interesting I think discussion on ourhands today and an awesome guest with us. So Chris, welcome to the show.Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Um,Chris, if you could just tell a little bit about We got a an amazing question from you. I think it was spurred fromthe episode I did a few weeks back. Um, if you could just kind of talk about it and tell us your story a little bit.Uh, that'd be awesome. Yeah, I uh I really I I I've listened to you guys every week. I love it. I loveyour your your p your podcast and uh I I've had I have a friend who who was inyour men's group retreat recently and loved it and and convinced me that that's something I should do. Veryhealing. Um I when I heard that podcast, I I had somethoughts that I thought it may be useful to have a discussion regarding um thatuh might might provide a a different perspective, might add to theperspective you already have because I have a story that I think includes both. So I could I could tell a little bitabout my story if if you feel feel comfortable. Let's just let's make sure we reference. So, thepodcast was the one Brandon just did a couple of episodes ago about sexual shame.Where does shame come from? Yeah, right. Where does sexual shame come from? That was the title of the podcast.First off, Chris, what do you think of the the title of my book? Oh, geez. Oh.Um, well, I I was hoping to get into that maybe later. Talk about that later. Save.Okay, we'll we'll bring it up later then. That's fine. So, so yeah, Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about your story and and what your thoughtswere and what spurred the the desire to come on the show because we're really glad you're willing to do it. Well, thank you. So, so um so so I Igrew up in a in a home where there was a lot of sexual shame and I think it came pretty natural to to my family. Um, mymother was uh sexually abused by an uncle who later became a an important person in the community. Um, and achurch leader and uh my uh uh my father had been uh sexually abused by astranger um and and and my father, you know, had repeatedly been um unfaithfulto to my mother. And so there was a great deal of there was a great deal ofshame uh around sexuality and the results and outcomes of of sexuality. Sothat was kind of like a foundation that I had um growing up and and wassomething that um you know carried a lot of of I think kind of nuclear energy around it. So um and so uh I I but I wasalso a member of the church of of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. happens to be my church. Although I I do uh feelreligion in general is something that's important regardless of the faith. Um in in terms of uh sexual sexuality, uh I II believe my my religion is particularly useful in terms of um the doctrinerelative to sexual shame. But uh but at any rate, I went to um a uh uh seminaryin seventh grade as a 12-year-old uh 13-year-old and and got the message, youknow, you know, don't do this and don't do that. Um, and I think that that thatthat uh that inspired me in a way um to to to be the best I could be, but also Ihave some scrupulosity um some OCD tendencies and uh and and Ithink and and and and I think given the context that I had and I think I think my story is probably probably similar toa lot of the people that you may end up seeing in your in your work um you know uh relative to shame shame andsexuality. But but it it fired me up this message, but it but it but it also,you know, gave me some sense of like that's bad and that and that's not good to do and and you don't you don't havethat part of your life. You you kind of like shut it down. And I think I went into uh these kind of shame uh kind ofcontrol release cycles. Um and I would go, you know, several weeks or months and then and then act out and then andbinge and and you know, you know, you're familiar with with that obviously. Um and and that went on, you know, for agreat deal of my life. Um I think how however for me there was um there was asaving grace and and and and I really wasn't that familiar with the doctrine of the church or or or the teachingsexcept for peripherilally. There were some seeds that were useful though. At any rate, I went into this controlrelease cycle and and and and but what was useful, I think, for meum until I found the 12 steps, which was particularly helpful to have other brothers that I could just talk toopenly about this because I didn't really feel like I could talk openly in in in my church setting as much as Ithink would be optimal. Um, but at any rate, I did have the church leadershipthat I would confess to occasionally um after I felt like I'd done somethingthat I shouldn't have done. And and in the process of doing that, I was staying in the light and I actually found ituseful to me. I didn't have anything better. I didn't have essay. I didn't have in terms of like just talking topeople on a regular basis, having accountability partners, all of that kind of thing. it's useful. Um, I I justhad that as a as a as as something that I knew about. I'm old and so, you know, there wasn't a lot of I think essay wasborn when I was in in my addiction. And so I uh I I for example and and some ofthese therapy programs, etc. But at any rate, the being able to go to the to thebishop, talk about what was going on, I found it tremendously helpful to put to keep mein check. Still, there was the control release, but it didn't get out of control. I went to a therapist around 32or 30 33 years old. Um, who he was LDS. He said, you know, don't worry aboutbecause I was because I'd done something I didn't feel good about. And and and I thought and I and I was nervous about going to the bishop this time. And hesaid, don't don't do that. Don't don't beat yourself up. Don't worry about going to the bishop. you know, in fact,there's only one great high priest and that's Christ. Confess to Christ and and and that's and that's good and youyou'll be fine. And I love I loved that message because it gave me a good reasonto to to to hide and and I kind of went at that point into a a real double life.Kind of went into a spiral. Um and and started living in in in two differentworlds. um and and feel and feeling like I was confessing, but you know um butbut I don't need to to worry about the uh any kind of authority or ecclesiasticalkind of um you know domain. I just I was I was I was I was okay but I wasactually very very dark and uh and so I just found to to just start with um thatthat the that the process of at least having that was useful to me. So, I'llI'll stop I'll stop rambling there for a minute and I have a couple other thoughts, you know, that I might want to share.I don't know if that Oh, yeah. Chris, I I just want to say like I'm having this experience insidemyself that I haven't quite fully put my finger on here yet, but I feel like youare an actual treasure just by being here and offering your presence today because you're a thoughtful guy who'sdone a lot of deep thinking and feeling and can actually hold some nuance, I think, instead of it all being black andwhite. And um I think I think we're lucky to have you today as a as aresource even though we're trying to help too. So yes, thank you.Yeah. Um so if I'm if I'm gathering the very end part of where you led yourstory up to as it relates to why you wanted to come on this show is you're here saying and I'm going to put wordsin your mouth so correct me if I'm wrong. you're here saying, "Hey, I can relate to kind of having maybe some ofthose messages of that's bad." But I was also inspired by some of those messages, at least in my own church, some of thedoctrines I actually appreciate about what's taught about sexuality. And the biggest thing that I got out ofmy religion was the ability to keep things above board and have some accountability with somebody who is in aposition that was willing to hold that space. Um, is that is that close to what youwere saying? Yeah. And you know what I I came from and I think and I think if even if even one out of 10 um members ofthe church came from a similar situation as me where shame was kind of the family thing because I don't think shame is somuch of a of the church thing. In my mind it hasn't been and in my experience it hasn't been. But if only 10% of thepeople out there have had an experience with shame in their family and and and growing up I think that you guys aregoing to stay really super busy with church members and other people. Um because there is uh there's there'splenty of that to go around. But I don't think it I don't to me it wasn't like a uh a church issue. It was a human issue.And I I I guess I I I guess I found that it was it was it was yes useful. and andand I think that for the most part for for me I think the majority because asI've had years and years of sobriety and recovery now um I have found that thereis um that that that that I've been able to connect with people in my congregation and and be vulnerable andand and and learn more about them and other people that I know who are members of the church. And for the most part, Ithink the message of the of the church in their lives was tremendously powerfulbecause I think they had a basis from which to operate where they weren't kind of like driven by shame and and so thatthat when they heard that message, it was useful. They had their problems. Now, when I was in my addiction, I thought, "Yeah, everybody's gotpractices probably screwed up. All the men are probably lying." I don't I don't believe that anymore. I believe thatmost of the people that I meet are actually really good men who really care about their wives, who are veryfaithful, who have stray thoughts and things, but they're men who've made adecision to be married and that means they're going to have to say no to other things and they've accepted that andthey've and they and it's been powerful to them and they love the church for it.And so there's that aspect too. Not just my story of kind of like depending on the church for a little bit of okayesshere and there and and and and confession, but but but for all of those who aren't me and who aren't like me,who came up in a pretty darn good fa uh family of emotional basis and and andreally value the the the religion for telling them this is where we draw theline. Is there is there like I guess my question because honestly Chris whatyou're describing is exactly what I was talking about in my podcast isis uh the church teaching a lot of don'ts and then being the place to landto be to feel like you're okay to to confess and then you know repent andcome back to okayess. Um, and to me thatwhen you talk about that control and release thing, what what I hear there there is at a young age, at a youngadolescent age, you were taught to become a fighter. You were taught to to fight your your natural who who you are.And I think a lot of people when they hear that, they they think, well, of course, because if I didn't fight it,then I would just go like act out everywhere. I would just go nuts. Think I would have,right? And so then the church provides me this structure to tell me what I can't do and I'm grateful for thatbecause I can hang on to that. But then it it sets up the cycle that you were talking about of control and release andcontrol and release. And that to me is the it's the shame machine.It's it's the it's it's the constant like I'm I you know I'm I'm gonna fight it.I'm going to fight it. I'm going to hide what I'm doing. I'm gonna then I then I release and I act out and I feel horrible and I feel bad about who I amand I and so now I need to confess to feel okay. And I guess my question isis there is there a like a whole other way that could be better than this?Like I I I I hear you Chris that it was good to go talk to somebody. You had youhad the church. You had someone there that you could talk to. But is there a whole better way than this?It really truly yes. I mean ideally we would have had a culture that trulysurrounded I mean I mean this is where do you find where are you going to find something like this? I mean the first thing that Satan says to to Adam and Evewhen they gain consciousness is is hide you know and yes and so it's just a natural human tendency to to want to hide. And so Idon't think that I don't think that the church or any other inst but where do you find something? Well, you find it in places that are special like like theessay groups or your or your programs um where people can talk vulnerably. Ideally, you would have a kind of a Ithink Boy K. Packer once went to an essay kind of meeting. Maybe it was ARP, I don't know, but he said if everybodyhe's an apostle of the of of our church. He says, "If every if if our priesthood meetings could be like this, you know,how much we could gain from this." Um, that's the that's the ideal a kind of asupportive culture. Uh, that's that that's fine. But let me get also just talk a little bit about an analogy justto maybe answer that question better. Um, I think there's an analogy in the Declaration of Independence and and andand in Judeo-Christian scripture that laid seeds to the ending of slavery thatthat that that at one point the the religious forces said, "No, you know,we're not going to stand for this anymore." And against all um culturaland economic benefits, they got rid of it. Well, there was something about thatin the doctrine that for me that that was that was always there that laid theseeds for something special for me. Um that that once I started actuallygetting some recovery, I was able to see whereas when I wasn't in sobriety, wasn't in recovery, I couldn't see veryclearly. and and and it became a very rich source for me which really helpedheal any kind of shame or or or shame in general around sexuality. I'm not sayingI'm completely healed. It's an ongoing process. But the doctrine has been very powerful and that is for example in ourchurch that God himself has a body of flesh and bones that he that there isthat that are tangible that that he is a father of our spirits that we have aheavenly mother. All of this conotes sexuality. He's a god of body parts andpassions that we're supposed to bridle our passions not suppress them. thesedoc. Was was this taught to you like often at church?It was it was taught to me sufficiently. It was taught to me fairly regularly, but I couldn't I couldn't hear it. I Itwas but it was but it was taught to me. And I did have leaders who would who would I I remember being in a in adeacon's quorum. had it was Elder Oaks's brother um uh President Oaks's nowbrother um Mel Oaks and he was a teacher of mine and he taught about how he hadthis struggle in in his this when his optometry practice um where a woman camein and he told the story and it and and and I kind of got a sense that that thathe had to make decisions, you know, and that he had to so I so so he was a he was a normal human being and and I thinkI got a lot of it. But I think I guess what I'm saying is I came from a context that couldn't hear it very well. I justcouldn't hear it very well. And when I started getting so bridey, I started hearing it. And as I started hearing it,it started to me be meaningful because now I'm embedded in this in this eternalthing that where sexuality, creativity, God is full of testosterone, it appears.He's a warrior. He's a lover. He's a He He likes the name of my book,[Laughter] God the Warrior and Lover. Yeah. But that's that's uh that's howthat's that that became meaningful to me. And so in that sense again,maybe it wasn't emphasized as it as as as as it should have been as much as itcould have been. And and and and but but at the same time, it was there and the seeds were there and they're meaningfulnow. and they and they've been meaningful to kind of keep me in a good place.Chris, can I can I ask you a question because I your story actually kind of parallels my own a little bit and I'mthinking about my own situation, my own personal spiritual journey as you're talking and I'd love to know this isokay. So, growing up, you weren't you didn't have the lens to see it from. Ithink this is part of what Brandon's asking you. Yeah. is but now inside the same churchyou have a different lens from which you see these things and now you're grateful for what you had been taught even thoughyou didn't have the lens at the time what allowed for the changing of thelens or the view then because because I think we could look at this and we could any anybody listening right now we wouldmight be almost a 50-50 split right now of half of the people going like oh my gosh like the church instilled thismassive shame in me and the other half are going like holy crap app like thankGod for like what I had in the church and for the the power of the atonement and the way it worked in my life and theway like it there's there's probably a ton of factors that would make that happen but what allowed the shift inyour perspective to happen. Um, for me, I I I was one of thoseperhaps unfortunate, I don't know, that needed that needed to to go to uh to gettherapy, to get to get um to go to SA group and to and to be able to talk withbrothers and to connect with them. Ideally, like I say, that would have been in the church, but but but itwasn't for me. And and so that was part of my journey. And it was a and I haveto just as as much as I say I'm an apologist for the church, I have to say that that was a powerful part of mebeing able to get enough clarity so I could start seeing some things because I was be able to sit with other men whowere suffering and who had the same issues that I did and say whatever Ineeded to say, call people regularly, have his connection. And so that kind ofbrought me out of of kind of walked me out. Uh I guess group kind of became myhigher power for a while. It kind of walked me out of the shame until Irealized I'd always had these uh spiritual experiences with God. But to start torealize that he's that he not just my group is there forme, you know. Um, and it's what I'd always learned, but that I couldn'thear. Um, and so yeah, I needed I needed I needed some outside kind of help, butthen to then connect with the with wi with the source uh more,you know, more directly. Um, and so I and so that was kind of that that that'skind of my that was kind of my journey out, I I I actually don't I don't think we're in disagreement at all. Um I Ijust I I I really like what you're saying about the doctrines of sexualityat church. I I know those doctrines are there. Um but when it comes to likeheavenly mother, we're not supposed to talk about her. Um when like I would Iwould match you 10 to one on on talks and um articles and enzyme about purity,chastity, don'ts, don't don't don't to where they actually talk about somethingthat is healthy sexuality and the doctrines are there. Yes. And now Chris,you have the eyes to see them and they're helpful for you. Right. But to an 11year-old, 12year-old kid, atleast in my generation, when the strength of youth pamphlet is put right in front of you,you go, you go to a deacon's quorum, you talk to the bishop, it's pounded intoyour head, that the natural man is an enemy to God, and you need to become a fighter. Andyour sexuality is this like lust and sex is one and the same. It's one and thesame. Mhm. So, so where is and the real question is this comes down to to sex education? Itreally comes down to the family, the parents, but but where is the positivity? Where is any positivity around sexualityat church? You have to find it. You have to go through a whole big process like thishuge process of recovery to realize like, oh my gosh, it's there. But to all of these kids that I've treated foryears and years and years and on the back end they're like they're they're still wallowing in this this cycle offear and control and and rejecting themsel again and again and again.It is a problem. Yeah. And and and it's a problem in 12step groups as well. Like 12step groups areawesome. I love 12step. I love it. But when you get together as a group and it's all about becoming fighters againstyour sexuality, how much sex positivity is in essay groups? How much sex positivity is in SAL groupsor whatever they are? Um, it's not there. And and and what I am saying isthat you don't just go nuts with your sexuality that these barriers and these boundaries are absolutely important.The don't the don'ts are a good thing. Like absolutely that is important. Thatis very important. But when that's all you get then whatand and and and it is a problem that needs to be talked about. I get that the church provides good stuff. Communitysupport talk about God service. Like we could go down the list of how great thechurch is when it comes to this topic. They've missed the boat for a long, longtime. And I would say they've shifted in a good direction, a better direction.They're not doing as much harm, but now they're just not talking about it as much. It's just kind of gone silent.They changed the for the strength of the youth. It's much better now. Way better now. Um, but there is still not enough.There's still in the minds of all these kids and in the minds of the guys of our generation, it's still about fight.Don't don't don't or you better not. I agree that there can be a better therecan be better work and including an essay. Um I don't go to essay now so much to battle lust is kind of more liketo talk about you know resentments and things that are coming up. But uh um uhbut I can see I I I totally I totally get what you're saying. And there could be I think more.Chris, be a spokesperson. What you're saying is right, but like it's not said.It's not taught enough. It's not taught that often.That's Well, I appreciate I I really appreciate that, Brandon, and and and I and I agree with you. I think we are incomplete agreement on that uh that that topic. You can't again though. I mean,and I'm not contradicting what you're saying. I say yes. And um and and and and don't throw the baby out with thebathwater because the the the the first thing, like I said, that that that Lucifer says to the conscious Adam andEve is is is is hide from God or hide your sexuality in a way. Cover yourgenitalia. Um because you know, you're naked. And so get out of here. And so,um, and so they do, um, but but then God didn't come back and say, um, no, take your clothes off. You know, he he he hesaid you're you're conscious now. Have a standard. And I know you're saying have a standard. I I I hear you saying that.And and I just would hate to see it. I'd hate to see that pendulum because pendulum. But listen listen what you just said. Ilove what you just said. You're conscious now. You're conscious that you have those powers and that it's there.What God didn't come back and say is put on a chastity belt and like guardyourself against that. It was a fig leaf. It was like a It was a little tiny thing that can be removed. It wasn't,you know, like put a wall around yourself. So that's not what God came back with. So I actually love thisanalogy, right? And Satan and and notice who said hide. Notice who went and said, "You knowwhat? You better cover up and hide. You better go really really far with that." That was Satan,right? Yes. And I just hate to see the I I guess I'd say like I hate to see the pendulum swing through, but because thest because whenever you have a standard, you're going to have shame. Um or you don't have to, but you're vulnerable toit and because because that's where but but you don't get rid of the standard. Idon't hear you saying that. It's just it would be hard. It's it's it's it's it's not a it's not a smart thing, I think,to to just kind of like dismiss or to kind of softenum the standard um for the sake of dismissing shame. And I that I think weprobably agree on that. I'm not sure. Right. I wonder I wonder you guys if there's another another part of this to thinkabout because you know I I hear I hear both sides. We could have we hear this argument all the time over and overagain and I'm thinking of it maybe just from this framework for a second. You guys can both tell me what you think of this. Um, it seems and and just to goback to your personal story, Chris, it seems that the people that I talk to that are in the same similar position asyou, part of what moves them from a shamebased perspective of how of theirupbringing to this more um shame resilient, grateful perspective, even ifit's inside the same church is is a spiritual process that is veryindividual where they actually come to know and understand who God is much differently than the way they weretaught. And and but I disagree to say the way they weretaught. I I I just still to for for me I think the way I was taught in generalwas pretty sex positive. I think that there's not enough of it. But ingeneral, I think I was taught well. Um but but the way I interpreted it basedon my history, not good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Same thing. I would agree with that for myself too, youknow. Um, so and I think that there's probably a lot of factors, not just the church thatinfluenced the way that you viewed it, the way that you interpreted it, right? So,but what I'm what I'm wondering about is, you know, part of what a church's job is to do is to try to, you know,spell out like, hey, here is the list of standards that will lead to the happy life. You know, if you live this way andthis way and this way, this is going to lead to a happy life, right? So, they're going to have whatever you want to call them, a set of commandments, guidelines,expectations, whatever. That's kind of the job of the church. And then you'reteaching little children growing up inside the church, hey, here's this thing and this thing and this thing andthis thing. Of course, it's going to naturally want to slant itself towards the dos and the don'ts of things, butthey don't account for the fact that a child and their brain development is concreteand then they go through a transformation through adolescence and into adulthood. And as a part of that there's a spiritual journey that has totake place where the individual in order to mature spirituallyultimately has to be come to this place face to face with their relationship with God where they define why am Ichoosing to do or not do this list of things. You're right. And I think Brandon, you're both right offthat aspect is that especially for some of us um who tend to be black and whiteand want things to be black and white, want things to be simple, that um that there's a that there's a a tendency fora young mind to grab on to, uh the simplicity of dos and don'ts as opposedto um kind of being with them on the innuendo. And and I appreciate yourcall, you know, Brandon, to to to maybe be to open up a little bit more in my inmy church to be more to be to be in my priesthood meetings, you know, to toetc. to be more of an advocate for something for change um as opposed to umkind of uh keeping that shame around uh that that that that a lot of people docarry and that makes it hard to talk about. But sexuality is hard to talk about otherwise it would have nomeaning. And that's and that and that gets maybe to the title of your book, you know, it's which I think is cool.It certainly sticks. I think people are going to remember it. Yeah. Are they going to put it on their mantlesurrounded surrounded by the Christmas decade? Um the uh maybe not and and Ithink and I think that's because sexual energy is is is like I said it's a nuclear power. It's like it's got a lotof it got it's got a lot of energy to it and I and I hate to see it become profane and everyday and mundane and Ihate to dumb down the glory and the joy and the power of sexuality. That's theonly thing I That's the only I a I agree with you, Chris, but at the same time like that there's a messagethere of like we got to we got to be really careful and hide from it. So like let me give you an example. Um let's sayI'm a 12-year-old who starts having wet dreams. Mhm. So and even saying wet dreams on on thepodcast right now, it's like oh we're talking about something sexual, right? Um or a 12-year-old who starts gettingerections every single morning. Sure. right? Um or or a girl at certaintimes of the month starts having certain feelings and so likeyou you know it's like I I'm growing up I'm developing and when I'm having these wet dreams orI'm getting erections in the morning what like should and one of the firstthings I hear is a bishop saying hey watch out for your sexuality be careful.Um, the big missing piece is healthy sex education, right? And I think that comesfrom the home. I think that comes from the parents first and foremost. It'd be really nice if that was paired with yougo to church and the do's and the don'ts are fine as long as there's also a steady dose of what you were talkingabout of your body is beautiful, your body is amazing. what when you geterections in the morning or your body is preparing itself to become a father toenjoy pleasure to like all of these beautiful wonderful things. So let'slet's start with that. Start with the amazing power and the beauty and all ofthat is before we before we immediately the first perspective that we have isthe watch out, be careful. Uhoh, you know, here it comes. And so and so we wehave to be able to talk. And I I'm not suggesting at church we sit down and talk about wet dreams, but what I'msaying is would be a bad idea to talk to the deacons about this happens and you know I maybeit would be awesome if the parents were doing that would fire me that'd be fine but I I think it's something that could be donebut what I'm saying is that leader who's already sex positive with his own kids and teaching his kids about thatteaching about Jesus or good principles or whatever doesn't have the energy ofwe better be careful of you and your body first and foremost Let's just like really validate thatyour body's changing, that it's beautiful. It's amazing and it's powerful stuff. And like like Tyler andI watched this video the other day about these two these two dogs and he he he talks about he talks about how everyevery boy has two dogs and it's violence and and lust, right, Tyler? violence andlust and how you know you can train these dogs and if you don't learn how to do itin your adolescence then those dogs they become basically wolves that own you later on in adulthood.Um and so instead of instead of starting with lust is bad and this is exactly howyou train it, we start with this is in you. This is part of youand this is this is normal. This is normal. I think it does have to come from the family. When I as I was talkingas I was thinking about that like for example the deacons score what do you say what do you don't say is I mean Ireally I think I like what Tyler and you you've been saying about this really kind of has to start I mean of coursewith with with a with a nurturing family and a capable parenting because these are sensitive issues and these are andand and these are sacred issues and I and and I think that we and I think I think it's important to keep themsacred. Chris, coming back to you, like personally, I can totally see why the church was really important because whatI'm hearing is your family has a lot of sexual trauma and there like like therewas a lot going on there, especially with your dad acting out in his own addiction and and so the church becamethis this safer space for you to help you navigate things because it like itwas wasn't very healthy between your parents. Sure. Right. So, so good for the church for that.That's that's wonderful, right? But I also hear I also hear that the church also contributed some to thescrupulosity and and the the shame cycles that you went through. Yeah.And and as you've sorted out through the years, you look back and you're actually grateful for the church because that was something steady for you,right? And I don't know if I would what I would have done without it. I don't know. I don't know what if I wouldn'twouldn't wouldn't have had the standard and maybe the too much don'ts. Um, youknow, given my given my dad and he w relative to he had kind of was a goodman with a big hole in his in his super ego, I guess you could say, in his conscience around sexuality. I don't Ijust don't know that I could have I I think I I think I might have really been much more dysfunctional, much morekind of sociopathic than than I would have otherwise been without the check. Um and the check, youknow, created, you know, some some angst, but like I say, I'm the I I thinkI'm still the minority. I think for most people it didn't, but for me and a lot of men and and and young men it did. andum and and and and and for me it did and yet I'm happy that it that that I hadthat at least. Right. I'm I'm having this is another kind of way out there thought but I'm wonderingyou know the discussion we've had I think is an interesting one. Um two thoughts if I could share them. Thefirst one is I remember this and I think this is kind of to your point Brandon.Um remember going to a priesthood meeting. I was probably just h justfreshly graduated from high school or right about that point. You were probably a junior or a senior and thenRex was probably a sophomore or something like that. And um we went to apriesthood meeting and there was a talk about gambling, pornography, and drugs and alcohol. And uh I was sitting, dadwas here, I was next to dad, you were next to me, and Rex was next to you in a line. And I watch this unfold where likethis the talk is talking about like gambling and all of a sudden I see like Rex like shrink in his chair and then itgoes down and you shrink in your chair then I shrink in my chair and all three of us are like almost like laying on ourthose like hard uncomfortable chairs, you know? And I remember walking out ofthat meeting not going like man I was totally uplifted by that talk. I w ended up walking out of that meeting goinglike dude I was I am the scum of the earth. like I am such a sinner because I probably just looked at porn like theday before this you know you know like whatever and I remember feeling a lot of those feelings that you're talking aboutBrandon um I went back several times and listened to that talk I listened to it just a couple of months ago and I didnot hear it to your point Chris I did not hear it the same way I heard it as an 18-year-oldI I heard that talk and I was like spot on spot on spot on I agree with most of that Um, and I think the difference isis that my relationship with God has changed to a point where I start to see these things from a different angle likeyou're talking about, Chris. And I'm like, yeah, I want to teach my kids all most of those principles. The way I wantto teach them is probably a little bit different than the way that I got it when I was 18. And I think that's adiscussion we're having right now. And I'm thinking of parenting styles, right? You got a permissive parent that's like,do whatever you want. Like Barooa, you want an Oompa Loompa? I'll get you one. you know, like, you know, or there'slike the rigid parent that's like, "Here's the rules. You keep the rules no matter what." Both of those parentingstyles screw kids up the most. I don't know why I just got balloons. I just gotballoons. Um, okay. That that point that you made did not warrant balloons.Let me let me let me get some more like hand motions to get myself some like props.But but the middle ground is a parent who who shows up according to theparenting styles. You've got the authoritarian which is the controlling one. You've got the permissive one which is the hey whatever goes goes. And theone in the middle is is basically called the authoritative parent. And they offer high levels of love with an intention toteach with high levels of expectation and boundaries. And both of those merge together is what produces the bestoutcomes for a child. the nurture and admonition at the same time. Both they they're both necessary. And Ithink I hear you Chris saying like let's not let's not throw out the need for admonition. Let's just make sure thatthe nurtures there. And that's Brandon saying, dude, we need more nurture. We do. I agree.Well, I I think that and the one thing that drives me nuts is this. It always comes back to like, well, you know, ifif you don't like you're going to throw out the need for for admonition. Well,here here's the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand is when you empower sexuality and you just to yourpoint earlier, Chris, when you make it conscious, you then be you then have power to choose. You are you are apowerful human because you're conscious. So, when we when we go in the front doorwith rejection, what we're doing is killing that. We're going underground with shame. We'rekilling that consciousness. you. What I'm saying is you will have moreself-control and you will be able to be a healthier human being with your sexuality when you're honest withyourself about what that sexuality is. And when when when you're just trying tofit it in a box, one box that's given to you. Yeah. Well, all of the three of us, we eachhave three different sexualities. We're all different. So, it's healthy for each of us to be like, "Okay, let me let meunderstand. Maybe I have this attraction to this thing that's a little bit deviant. I need to understand like therewould be consequences if I went and acted out on that. Um, I don't want to do that, but I'm going to own that. Ihave it. I'm going to act. It's just like parts work. Like there's no bad sexuality. Just like no bad parts.There's no bad thing here." But now because there's no bad sexuality, I comeI I accept that the sexuality is there. Now I get to choose what I want to do.And that's the admonition needs to be more under that vein than it needs to beunder here's the box. Fit in the box. So you're saying create a context ofcomplete selfacceptance for the thought, feelings, and emotions that naturallycome to us as part of being human. And then you're able to better at that pointnegotiate what's useful and not useful behaviorally. That's well said. Yeah, exactly. It's athis kind of goes into some more doctrinal type stuff, Chris, too. But the thought that's coming to my mindwith what you're saying, Brandon, this is where I think I I personally land on this a lot is, and I think this is partof the maturation spiritually is when you look at the plan, we're only really given two things that are actually ours.We're given Hey, I got balloons again. All right. Um, yeah, it comes at the most the worst times. Um, so, but we'rewe're given two things. We're given a physical body to navigate this mortal experienceand we're we're given the edict and the gift of our own personal agency andchoice. That's that's what it all hinges off of is agency and choice and the way that we choose to use our bodies. Andand to your point, Brandon, doctrally speaking, what we're learning to do is to align our will and how we use ourbodies with the will of God. That that sounds like Christ's plan, not Satan's plan.Right. And I think what Chris is saying is is that doctrally speaking, you could go to most Christian churches and thedoctrine would say that. But a lot of people miss that because of for whateverreason they're interpreting things differently until they in their own spiritual path come to the point ofrealizing I am the one who makes my choices and I am the one who wrestles with God. So, so like Chris where he'scome to I I believe you worship Christ Chris. Chris Chris and I have I have no I I I have no you know I can't say butyou know within your heart right I believe I believe that Satan runs the show in a lot of ways when it comes todo and don't. It's there's one way and there's no agency. You go this way andthat's how you get back to heaven versus I am aware of my being. I love myselfand who I am and now I get to choose and I get to choose the consequences of my actions. That's a much more mature wayto live and you actually learn and grow and develop as a result.Yeah. Right. Yeah. and having and in having a savior there that I've been taught and that isimportant part of my life because largely I went to church and and and andis and now that now I have these resources this these treasures I can draw fromthat help me and enable me to make decisionsbetter easier. You know, Chris, we could go on for hours.Chris, we love having you on the show, man. It's been a really interesting discussion. I I I was really I was really anxiousand I'm really grateful. Um, so, thank you for being so kind and and uhgenerous. I think that we've just we've thrown a lot out there in this episode, a lot ofjust thoughts and things to to think about and and you know what, like I think that that we didour job. So, if you're listening to this and you're you're having thoughts and feelings and wrestling and thinkingabout things a certain way, um that's what we want. And um just really grateful for a man as courageous asChris to come on and provide this discussion so that so that you can thinkabout these things and and discuss these things. So, thank you, Chris. Really appreciate you. to see you guys.What are you doing? We're We're looking forward to seeing you at our next rising sun then, it sounds like. Can't wait to see you upclose and personal. I look forward to that. Thank you. It'll be It'll be good. I just heard wonderful things about it.So, a very healing experience. So, thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you and thank you to our listeners who are here and for youprobably stirring your own feelings over what these topics are. These are deep, hard things. They're vulnerable topics.I believe that vulnerability is the battleground between God and Satan everywhere in all of our lives. It's theit's the place where it's either going to turn us towards shame or it's going to turn us towards love. That's whathappens. And um thank you for being here with us and being willing to have these kinds of conversations. And until nexttime, keep on keeping on.