How Do I Hold Boundaries When I Feel Like He’s Just Going Through The Motions To Appease Me ?

How do I hold boundaries when I feel like he's just going through the motions to appease me?Hey, Tyler. Brandon, good to see you, man. It's, you know, I see you quite abit, but every time I see you, it's good to see you. Hey, Monday mornings are one of my favorite times of the week.Oh, you don't have to say because I know I get I know I get two hours with most of your attention. So,Tyler likes to claim I'm ADD. You've diagnosed me as a narcissist. No, I didn't I didn't diagnose you. Thelistener diagnosed you as a What else am I? I mean, but you are defin You definitely are ADD. 100%. No doubt. There's no shame inthat. There's no shame in that. But that is true. I've been trying to to get an appointment to address it, but I justhaven't been able to focus long enough to get it to get your appointment. You keep forgetting to go get yourappointment. Yeah. I'm just too disorganized. Yeah. Yeah, I got to diagnose you withsome mental health stuff. You I've got plenty. I'm sure you wouldn't take that. You're just like healthy. You're justlike healthy physically, mentally, spiritually. Like you're just just a perfect example of perfect health.At least at least from the from the outside. I mean, look at your teeth. Your teeth are like your teeth match your health.Like white cousin Jeff did a perfect job. You don't know how many times people have likeespecially And you know what's funny is like on a Zoom meeting these things pop like they're like glow-in-the-dark. I know. I know. Like I get blinded bythem every Monday morning. Holy cow. Look at those things. Those pearly whites.Um uh yeah. So anyways, who would haveknown mid-4s, you know, I'd just be a mess and unhealthy and you'd just be just walking.I don't think that's true, man. We all have our bumps and bruises, man. All right, enough on this. Let's get to ourguest today. We got a good guest today. So, Ally, welcome to the show. Thank you.Um, if you could give us a little bit about what's going on with you and we'll just kind of go from there.All right. I just wanted to take a minute and tell all the different callers that have called in just express my gratitude for their uh couragebecause honestly the callers that have called in and talk to you guys have really changed my life and um helped merefocus and helped me become grounded. So I just wanted to say thank you first to start out. Awesome. It's beautiful.All right. Well, I um typed this up because as I told you guys, I'm a little bit nervous and I just want to be asclear as possible. So bear with me. Um, my husband and I have been married 16years and have three children. We are both from a faith-based background. He grew up as a pastor's kid in aPentecostal church and I was raised evangelical. Tyler, when you talk about being thegood guy, I feel like that's textbook him. He's the definition of that. Everybody loves him and he doesn't wantto ever tell anyone no. Um, just uh just all around good guy. Um, we grew up in aheavily pushed purity culture mindset. um sex and sexuality was only did we disexplored or talked about in a marriage covenant. Um I grew up actually in a very sex positive home and discussed itpretty openly. However, in his home, sex and sexual desires were not talked about at all. Uh during our premaritalcounseling, porn and masturbation did come up and he mentioned that he had struggled with it off and on as a teen.Um, but our first D-Day was actually in our first year of marriage when I was using his computer and stumbled upon asaved file that had some pornographic content. I had asked him about it and of coursehe played it off as nothing and said it was probably just something from the past that he had forgotten to get rid of. I was not as naive and didn'tbelieve him. Um, I took it personally and felt like therewas something wrong with me that I wasn't enough. um he thus not be attracted to me or wanted somethingelse. My beliefs around sex um told me that I had the responsibilityuh for keeping from needing him from him to need porn or sexual escape. Afterthat, it was years of distress and always feeling distant or that something was off in our intimacy. I remembermultiple times that I'd be upset and tell him that I just couldn't figure out why I felt so unloved, felt distance, ornot cherished. Fast forward to 2016, we had our third child. He was born with agenetic disorder and has a rare disease that makes him reliant on us for his complete care. It was a year of multiplehospitalizations and near-death experiences for our child. My husband is also a textbook workaholic. Um, so tocope, he just worked more, making me feel alone in an already difficult situation.In the summer of 2017, I was battling postpartum and pretty severe depression and trying to wrap my mind around ourlives being turned upside down. I told my husband that I was questioning my own will to live and needed help. I told himI was going to therapy with or without him. And he is very anti- therapy and didn't want to go. But after muchprompting and encouragement, he did agree to come. During our therapy, there was a lot ofhealing that took place. We talked about pretty much everything that was going on and also about his addiction to porn,video games, alcohol, and things that he used to escape uh working all the timeand how I felt alone. In January 2022, we had another discovery and instead offalling apart with tears and letting my emotions run the conversation, which always just seemed to push him away, umI decided to write him a letter. I told him that I didn't want to live like that anymore. I told him what his addiction was doing to me and our marriage andwhat values it went against. He still responded trying to explain it away and told me that he would work at it. Istarted reading and educating myself on sexual addictions, betrayal, trauma, and I stumbled upon your podcast. Itliterally changed my life. This sounds ridiculous, but after nearly 14 years of marriage, I truly understood andbelieved that his addiction and lack of integrity surrounding our sexual relationship was not about me. It waslike a weight was lifted off. I took your advice and butt out of his recovery completely. I stopped asking and stoppedplacing expectations on what I thought it should look like and I dove head first into my own recovery.I started running and working out and working on my own healing of my heart and mind. It changed my life. As a momto a special needs child, I realize the importance of caring for my body and my own mental health. I feel like there'sbeen some change and I can now feel when he's being honest and trustworthy and when he's not. Um, I am a teacher and Iactually just went back to school a few weeks ago and I noticed over the last few weeks that things felt off again. Itold him how I felt some distance between us and that he he was starting to work more than usual and play morevideo games. I told him like I felt like he was being evasive and things seemed off when we were intimate. He did say hewas struggling again, but I was also met with defensiveness and our conversation got pretty heated.Some of the comments he made in the conversation were, "I've made so much progress and gone long months of timewithout relapsing and you still don't trust me. I don't have time for an accountability partner or to go to agroup. What is it that you want from me?" And the last comment was devastating. He said, "I feel like theonly thing I bring to the table is a paycheck." I mostly just listened and could feel his overwhelm. The lastcomment definitely surprised me and made me feel really sad. I did tell him that I was sorry and that I felt like that itwas obviously not true. And although we do appreciate him and his hard work and sacrifices he makes, his value as a manand husband were not dependent on that. For personally, for me personally, what was most concerning was that I didn'treally feel emotional. I wasn't sad or angry. I wasn't anxious or upset. I just felt kind of numb and hopeless. I feltlike it doesn't matter how much how it doesn't matter how I show up or thethings that I do or don't say. He just doesn't seem to want to change this part of his life. He does verbalize that he wishes hedidn't have to deal with it. But when it comes right down to it, he doesn't want to put any effort into making lasting change. So, I guess the long story shortis I'm tired of this crazy cycle. Sometimes I feel like it's an uphill battle with no end in sight. And Ibelieve that God can change anyone. But will he ever get past his shame and pride and recognize that this is destroying our marriage? If I were aclient that came into your office, what would you tell me? What is in my power to change? And what else can I be doing in my current situation?Awesome. Wow, that's a really good uh synopsisfor us to work with. Ally, thank you. um tough situation to be in and I thinkI think it's great that you're on the show today because there's going to be a lot of other people in a very similarsituation. So this will hopefully be helpful for a lot of people.So where do we start? Right. Um so are you currently going to therapy?So I was up until probably six or eight months ago. I was talkingto my therapist um and his recovery did come up sometimes, but um she prettymuch told me like every man is going to do this and you talking about this orworrying about this is never like I don't know why because this is just like a normal thing and you need to kind oflet that go. Um so I quit going to her because I was like I don't see it that way. Um, I was doing some EMDR for somepast trauma situations and through some of the PTSD that I experienced in thehospital with my son. So, I felt like that was helpful to work through some of that. Um, but currently I'm not seeinganybody. Do you um how is your support system? Doyou have people that you can rely on, people you can open up to?So, we are both of our families live within 10 minutes of us. So, we have really great support um as far as likewith our son and our kids. Um but like my sister, I talked to my older sisterabout this. Actually, I'm one of seven kids and my oldest sister and I are really close. Um so, she kind of knowswhat's going on, but other than that, no. So, just to clarify, so your sister whoyou're close to, one person kind of knows what's going on.Okay. Do you see what I'm what I'm asking? And um Okay. So, like I I guess the questionis is like how open have you really been with people to rely on that support? You've been through so much, Ally. Andum so I'm just trying to assess to to answer your question of where do I gofrom here? I think we need to understand where are you now? So what support system do you have? Whattype of therapy are you doing? Um what tools do you have right now? And you're not starting from square one. Like youyou got some good stuff going. Um, but I do think there's some things thatyou could implement to to make things a little bit better and go more smoothly.Um, Tyler, anything you want to add to that? I just I just want to say that hearing your story like to I mean tohave done some therapy just in general I think is is good but you've done a lot you figured out a lot of the basics juston like self-learning you know to get into that space of self-care to get into that space of surrendering his addictionto not taking it personally all of that stuff is really good work that you've been doing so I I think we're alreadystarting in a I think we're already starting in a pretty good spot Brandon is right like We want to look at whatelse you need in order to then continue this journey that you're on because theboundaries question about what to do now is going to beum easil more easily answered if you have some of the basics underneath you that are going to be there to help provide the structure and support whenyou do that work. that recovery capital is essential to start to turn the tideon you showing up empowered and honest and and healthily boundaried. Like so sothat's the groundwork that needs to be laid first and then we get into thingslike um actually holding those boundaries in a loving way. Um havingmore compassion for him but but being strong at the same time. Um, but but thegroundwork has to be there for for that to to start to take hold a little bit.So, would it be okay if we just outlined some of those recovery capital things and kind of did an inventory? I thinkyou've got most of them and then and then we'll step over into like the the idea of boundaries and even some of theI want to even circle back to some of the things you said about the last discussion you had with your husband. Okay.Um, is that okay? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So, so when we look at recovery capital, we kind of look atsome core things and Brandon was getting to them. The first one is just and you sounds like you're doing a really nicejob with this is we call it the daily charge, but am I actively engaged intaking good care of myself and working towards cultivating like the right kindof energy and heart every day? So, you going and getting into your exercise and your self-care and realizing that that'simperative as a mom with a special needs child. Like same thing is true with going through any type of recoveryprocess is the emotional drain on that is so big that if you're not putting something in the top then you're thenyou're burned out and tired and resentful more often. And so you've got the recovery capital of the daily chargethat's anything physical, spiritual, emotional, social connections, all sorts of self-care kinds of things, right?Um relationship with God is in there. Can I just side note a little bit for I think especially for women, Ally,it can be like, wait, you're telling me when I'm overwhelmed that I should stop and take care of myself.That goes against like things I've learned. I'm supposed to sacrifice myself for my child, for my husband, forlike I'm supposed to be selfish here and take care of myself. What? Um do do yourelate to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and we're we're Tyler and Iare saying right now absolutely it's essential like you taking care of your body, your mind, your soul. Um likereally being the best version of yourself and loving yourself is essential.Yeah. It's like that lyric from uh Prince of Egypt in the song like there'sa a lyric when it's like when all you've got is nothing, there's a lot to go around. you know, if you don't putanything in the tank, then there's nothing to give and then there's nothing for anyone. So, that's the that's theidea. Um, the second part is I want to start looking at anything that I'm doingthat is actually draining my resources emotionally, mentally, spiritually, andand changing some of those patterns or behaviors. So, some of the things that you just described where you're like,I'm no longer going to go chase down his recovery. That was great. That's called the line of defense. you're like, I'mnot going to waste my energy on something that has no no way of building power over, right?Um, so I'm surrendering that and I've got a new line that I don't do that anymore so I can put my resources elsewhere. The third thing, this iswhere Brandon was going, is the building of a team. And we want to have just atleast a couple people in your life that will do a couple of things. One, they'll keep your confidences.Two, they will learn to speak your language as to like what you're dealing with. They listen to a few podcasts orthey'll they'll they'll want to support you in what you're doing. Three, they're going to respect your choice. And thenfour, they're going to show up with both empathy and a push for change at at thesame time. And if you have a couple people in your life like that, it makes everything else we're going to talkabout today way better. And then the last thing is mindfulness practice. justthe practice of meditation and mindfulness because that expands your awareness and expanded awareness expandschoice and um and so that's what we're looking for is kind of like the the basic building blocks of a solid kind ofrecovery. Um does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.And I would add um just a a kind of a side note that's really important. youyou get these these building blocks and you get this foundation to do this hard work. But as you get those things, ifyou can also be um like willing to go do your deeptrauma work that which she is, which you have been, which is awesome.Um when you're willing to do that, then you start to address the things that will undermine you giving your poweraway and and and and realize like that's why I do it. I understand myself and I don't likeI I'm not going to do that anymore because I've I've healed I'm healing those things. And as you do that along with this otherrecovery capital um then your relationship will probablyget worse before it gets better. Um because it'llchange like everything will start to shift and change and that that changea lot of times is looked at as like destruction and you are destroying yourrelationship as it is. That change will sometimes sound like your partner saying I think all I am isa paycheck. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. That Yeah, healthy boundaries destroy toxicrelationships. Um, and not that his feelings aren't validor important, but when he says that to you, that's feedback to you of, oh, thisis changing, which can be kind of scary. Um, and even after all of the buildingblocks are being built and you're doing all those things, when when those type of interactions happen, a lot of timespeople will bail. They'll be like, "Okay, let's go back to the old patterns because I'm worried about where we're going toland." if we do this. So, what are you thinking, Ally? Like, as as Tyler and Iare just kind of talking at you, what's going through your mind? I'm trying. I'm a teacher, so I'm taking notes on this, but I can just go backand relisten to it. Um, no, I I totally hear where you're coming from and Ithink that those are really essential and um encouraging also to hear that I'm on Iguess because I don't talk to anyone about this, it's good to hear that kind of validation that I'm in like goingdown the right track. Um, I'm not way off with, you know, as far as like self-care and being mindful and um, sodoing your own therapy. Yeah. And working on I I'm I'm the only thing Ican control. So I'm just trying to show up the healthiest I can for him and obviouslyfor our kids. So yeah, I hear that and I see that and Ithink you're, you know, if there's the one spot that Brandon I think is concerned about, it's just giving you that structure of a few other peoplebecause what's going to end up happening is you're going to keep going and inviting change in your relationship and there's going to be some resistancethere just by the nature of change. And you want to have a place to fall back on where people can catch you andgo, but what part do you want to keep? like because because you're come backand be like, "Oh, he said this and now I'm feeling terrible because I don't want him to feel that way." And they're going to be the ones to say, "Wait aminute. Hold on a second." Like, "Did you do anything wrong there?" Right? No, I don't think so.Where is that coming from? Is that coming from you and the way you're treating him? Or is is he actually confirming to you that he believes thosethings about himself as evidenced by the the whole lifetime of you guys' history together where every time it getsstressful, he provides for you by doubling down on his workcoholism.So who's the one telling him that he's only a paycheck?It's not you. That's something from coming from inside.Oh, okay. Now, that that team's going to push you back in, and then you're going to go back and be able to say, "Hey, I see you. I can see that you're feelingthis, this, this, and this, and I wonder if that's tied to these beliefs." Uhhuh. And this is the another way that youcould provide for me by showing up in this, and this and this way, right? [Music]There's a there's a really tricky thing with um with betrayal trauma and it'slike the it's this there's a invisible nature to the broken boundaries um withsex addiction betray betrayal trauma. Um what most women want is a man who hasstrength and can provide safety and trust. And a lot of times what happens is theythey they step into a recovery process and they get involved in groups and apply their workcoholism to that orwhatever. And um and and then they turn around and they're like, "What do you want from me?" Like what do I'm doing?I'm sober. I'm So So they're not like breaking boundaries. Like if if somebody punched me in the face, they broke myboundary. Like that's that's obvious. Like you punched me in the face, right? Mhm.But like for for partners sometimes it's like I know I know that my boundaries are being broken but I can't likepinpoint the the thing. Um, and and uh and something to understand,Ally, is even when you can't pinpoint the thing, trust your gut and yourboundaries are being broken. And and and so and and to understandwhat boundaries are is really important here. A boundary is not just, hey, don'tact out with pornography, but a boundary is is like your values.And when he says things like, "What do you want from me?" Um, question, Ally, what do you wantfrom him as a man? If you could have what youreally want from him, what would that be? I want I don't want him. I know thathe's going to make mistakes and I know that it's not gonna be perfect, but I just want him to be honest. I just wanthonesty. Good work. That he's being have integrity and saying, "I'm struggling."Um, and I know like when I wrote him that initial letter and that's something I wrote in there. I said, "I am notexpecting perfection. I'm not expecting this just to be something that you've had part of your life, your entire life.I'm not expecting just to be gone, but I am expecting honesty and integrity andjust seeing some effort put into addressing it. And so that's what Iwant. Okay. So, I heard a couple of things in what you said. Um, really good thingsthat you value. You value honesty, you value integrity, and you value thatin a partnership. She values effort, too. And effort. I heard that. So, I heard somethings that are really important to you. So, if if he's like, "Well, I'm sober. I'm sober. I'm sober." But you don'tfeel there's honesty there. You feel a breakdown in integrity. And maybe he is actually sober. Like, I'm I'm sober. I'msober, but like he's like lying about this or can't be vulnerable here or can't be open about that. Like, youryour boundary is still being broken in that relationship. Um, so I heardthose good principles, but you know what else I heard, Ally? I heard I heard you like you you having to kind of almostjustify or explain yourself of like I don't I don't expect perfectioncaretaking for that shame of his because you're worried you're going to get kind of bludgeoned from him of like whatcan't I can't do anything right. I'm not. And so then there's that weakness on that other end of like I need totiptoe into telling you who I am and what I need as a woman and as your wifebecause I'm scared of your shame. Um did you notice that too, Tyler?Yeah. I mean I like I what I like about that approach is she's at least acknowledging that hey like I don'texpect perfection. That to me is like a soft way of in of starting the conversation. That part's fine.I'm not saying don't do that. Yeah, I like I like that a lot. But what I hear you saying is and this is and this iswhere there's another couple probably principles that need to be identified in terms of what I want in my relationship.I want a man who can hold stuff. I want a man who can hear feedback andnot disappear. I want to be with someone who can actually attend to my feelingswithout making it about their shame. Right? Like I'm looking for somebody whocan be present. Um those things are Go ahead. Exactly. Yeah. Like you just saying thatexact like I wish I could just copy paste. Yeah. That's Yeah, you hit the nail on the head withthat. Okay. Go ahead. Well, we say honesty, empathy, and consistencyum show integrity. And so you take a person who's had an addiction for theirmost of their life and it has deteriorated that like it's just onelittle piece at a time. And so when when a wife comes along and it's like I want a man who's honest, empathetic, andconsistent. Like I want a man who's who can hold space for me. They'll hear that and they'll be like,"Okay, like I want to do that for you, but I have no clue where to even start to do that. So, I'm going to focus onbeing sober over here and tell you how good I am because and I'll go to work and provide for you. Yeah. And I'll go to work and I'll makemoney because that's what I can do because I have no clue how to actually do that honesty, empathy, andconsistency thing. And and as the wife, you're like, "But that's what I want." Like, make all themoney in the world, stay as sober as you want, whatever. Like, if I don't have that, I'm not safe in our relationship.And this is kind of where we get stuck with a lot of couples is you asking forthat from him is awesome. That's it's good because you're actually calling himup as a man to be a better man of God to to step into who he is.That's awesome, Ally. But also the compassion piece for you is to understand like that he might noteven like know where to start with that, right? I definitely see that. Yeah. when I'veasked him before like you know like what does recovery look like to you? Like I'mnot gonna throw it out there. I'm not gonna because he doesn't like when I talk like therapy terms. Just makes itlike goes in just shut down mode. Um and I'm just like what does it look like to you? And he's like well if Ijust don't think about it and I just ignore it then it'll just go away. And I'm like but have you noticed thatthat's like what you've always done and it's always brought the same exact result? like what's something else.Well, I just And then his response, this was the conversation we actually just had is well, I don't have time for thatand I don't know. I'm literally just trying to um you know, work and do allthese things. I just don't have time. If you have time to go to the bathroom, if you have time to text, if you have timeto take a minute, but I don't know. It's just theHeather, go ahead. Well, no. I mean, I just uh I just want to sayI just want to say that I think what you said in your intro is probably true that he and I would be really good friends.Like we sound like we both are kind of cut from the same cloth a little bit. And a lot of the things he's saying, youkind of have to start to read between the lines on a little bit. I don't have the time for that is code for I'mtotally out of my element and I only play games that I know I'm going to win at because because the only way that I getmy value is by winning. So I'm scared. I'm scared to go into the realm of learning what it's like to be presentand and learn empathy and learn to be like not work and actually be home withyou and hold your feelings. Like I don't know how to do any of that. So the the the answer I can give that's lessvulnerable is I don't have time for it. Right? Um to tell a quick story on this,my wife came to me several years ago and we things were good between us and wewere kind of like past all the hardest stuff in the recovery process and she kept saying she said, "Tyler, I want your I want more of your time." I'mlike, "Oh yeah, good idea. That's a great idea." She's like, "Well, tell me when you're going to create that." I'm like, "Okay, I'll let you know." And then like 3 weeks later, she comes backto me. She's like, "Hey, you never got back to me on how to create time, you know." She's like, "I'm suggesting thatyou take a half day off of work each week. You let me know which day that is if that works for you." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, good idea. Good idea." Andthen go back to work. Keep plugging people into my schedule. Workcoholism. She finally comes to me. She's like,"Hey, I'm suggesting Friday be the day that you take off because that's going to be the best for both of ourschedules, and I'd really love to spend some time with you." I'm like, "Yeah, that's a that's a nice idea." And then 3 weeks later, my Fridays are packed. Andthen she finally comes to me. She's like, "Hey, Tyler. Um, I'm gonna expect to see you on Friday. If not, I'mleaving. There's a boundary." I'm like, "What?"She's like, "I've been asking you for the last four months for some of your time. And if you don't want to make timeand prioritize me and the kids, I can go find somebody else to make a paycheck for me." So, I've I've tried to let youdo it on your own. I'm not going to be here and not be with a present husband. So, um, you let me know what you thinkabout Friday. What happened Friday? It was clear. Yeah. I was I was hangingout going to lunch with my wife on Friday. Um, and what I liked about thatis is that she tried. She did this like levels of pressure thing where she invitedand then she asked and then she told, and then she just said, "This is what I'm doing." Right? And and I think whatshe was trying to do is say, "Come, please step in here." Right? Um but he doesn't understand that language.That's what Brandon's getting at right now is he's still living in a way where he'll never have time for that becausehe only plays the games he likes to win. Yeah. And he needs to learn to step into agame with some growth mindset where he's not going to be good, but he can get better. [Music]I think if we can look at the root of it all a little bit, you think a sex addictionand like what is a what is a sex addict what does the addiction do for them? Like it does a lot of different things,but at the at the at the root of it, a sex addict is looking for love andvalidation. Like that that that ultimately what they're they're searching for connection, love, validation.And so when they're young and the shame develops, especially being raised in a purity culture, it's like, well, now Ifeel a lot of shame. I feel like I'm broken. I'm not good enough. I'm And so they go act out to feel okay for a splitsecond and then they feel worse about themsel. And but they're they're searching for that love and validation.And so what happens is when they get married, um, they feel some good connection from their wife and that'sgreat, but then they act out behind the scenes and they feel even worse about themselves. And then D-Day comes andthey're like, "Oh, shoot. Like, cat cat's out of the bag." So, okay, so recovery is now the thing. So, now I'mgoing to look for love and validation from recovery. So, I'm going to be agood boy. I'm going to be sober. I'm going to work hard and make money. and I'm going to prove to her that I'mlovable. I'm going to show her how good I am. And it's that same shame runningthe show. Um, and versus a man who doesthe actual recovery work to say, look, I'm going to figure out who I am, andI'm going to figure out that I'm loved whether my wife loves me or not.um whether a woman I I'm not going to get my validation and my worth from consuming a woman for it anymore. And sothat means my work is focused on me between me and God in figuring this out of who I actually am. And when I figureout who I actually am between me and God, guess what? That's really attractive to a woman,right? It's like, heck yeah. Like you you really are a man of God because you stand on your own two feet with God. andI want to be close to you now. But when you're consuming me for it and you're consuming me by sa by by making enoughmoney and showing me how good I am or whatever, that is that is not safety.That is a turnoff. Um is that true, Ally? Yeah, absolutely. And I've told him thatbefore. I'm like I he read a book uh The Miracle Morning. I'm sure you guys areuh familiar with that. And so he was practicing that for a while. And I told him when we were having one of ourconversations, I just said, you know, the times I've felt closest to you is and when I've really felt that polarityin our relationship where I felt your um just your masculine energy and justreally felt like loved by you was when you were getting up every day and youwere being mindful and you were just spending time just being peaceful and umall that. and he was like, "Yeah, yeah." I was trying to get around to like, yeah, like when you are showing up thatway, it makes me feel safe. It makes me feel secure. Um, so there has when I say that there hasbeen times where I've felt that. Absolutely. And so I know I don't feel like this is just like ahopeless situation, even though sometimes I do feel hopeless about it. It's like because I've seen bits and pieces of him truly trying to like yousaid trying to figure out who he who he is and um really chasing after his ownheart and his you know who God created him to be. Um but like I just feel likethis last little bit it's just been like I said this crazy cycle of justworking and um not making time for those things. Sounds like the frustratingthing is like you you can see his real heart and who what a good person he is and a important person he is to God. Um,but like you you want him to to like step into that fully and moreconsistently or recognize it, you know, like I see these great things in you and I know whoyou are and I know your strengths and abilities and um, you know, I think thateven listening to your podcast has just really helped me realize like speaking truth over your husband is sovaluable, right? and and kind of calling them up like, "Hey, I see these things in you. I know that you can do thesethings." Um, but I also think, like you said, it creates when you do do thosethings and you see those things, it also creates that distance because it's like I'm seeing that potential and seeing howhe just I know he cares, but it it comes across that he doesn't care and that he doesn't want that for himself. So itmakes the relationship seem hard and broken. Soyeah, I I like what you said and I think that's maybe part of the the question you had about boundaries and and thingslike that earlier is how do I hold boundaries when I feel like he's just going through the emotions and whereBrandon was going earlier is a place to come back to over and over again like a broken record.principles so that when he meets you with, "I'm working like crazy and I've been sober for months,"the trick is to say, "Yes, thank you." And back to the principles, principles,principles, principles. So, and I'm still looking for effortand honesty and integrity. And this is something that I didn't really fully understand for a long time, but my wifewould say, "I just don't know you, Tyler. I want to see your humanness. And I was like, you see everything I do. Yousee me go to work. You see me do this. She's And she's like, I actually love you more on the few occasions when youcan't cover up your imperfections. She's like, I want to see that you'rehuman. I love seeing your humanity. Um, now that's tricky because this is acaution for anyone listening and maybe to you too. I don't know if you relate to this. Sometimes when you get a guy like him, if he's if he's a lot like me,I don't know if he's not, you know, I'm in I'm inferring this, if if he decides to finally step into the realm of a newworld that he's not good at, he's going to suck at it.Like, you know, and and often times the partner who's saying, "Hey, I want Iwant empathy." And he finally steps in to practice empathy and it's horrible empathy. It's terrible. Then what theydo is they smack him back down like whack-a-ole like no you suck at empathy that's terrible like bam bam and thenpretty soon he's be like I'm not going back into that realm right but what if it's more like thebeauty and the beast when he's trying to feed the birds and he's like spilling the seeds everywhere and she's just kind of like smiling be like a I love theeffort like I see the effort thank you maybe next time this would be more effective you knowso that every time there's an effort towards those principles that's just as important to inviting things to go rightas the correction of everything that's wrong. So you're calling up with principles and then you're you're kindof acknowledging effort when you see it. Okay. Um on the times that you do sometimesyou won't see it for long periods of time maybe.Have we Ally, have we confused you more today or have we helped? No, I think you've definitely helped.Um, I think that the one time I was going to share thisearlier and I don't want to like I don't know if this will just take too long to go for it, but the one time that um Idid hold up a boundary. We did have some I think we actually still have it, but I don't ever check it. It's like a on ourphones so that it protects his phone from anything popping up or whatever. Well, I got an alert on my phone that hewas looking at something and it and I clicked on it because I never get the alerts to my phone and I had seen thathe had looked at something, you know, an image or whatever. And so I didn't say anything for 24 hours because I waslike, I'm going to wait and calm myself down first, you know, I don't want to just like fly off the handle like whatare you looking at? Why is this popping up on my phone? Um and so I waited 24 hours also to give him an opportunity toshare with me like oh hey you know um he's never actually come to me which isanother struggle is that it's like it's never it's always been a find. It's never been like, "Oh, I'm strugglingobviously." And so, um, when I did ask him about it, I just slid my phone across the table and said, "Hey, thispopped up on my phone. What's going on?" You know, and he said he told explained to me that it was something. And heclicked on a link. And I was like, "Okay." Um, I just said I I'm going to need somespace and some time and you know I Iwant some separation and so like I don't want you in our bedroom. Like you're going to have to find either gosomewhere else or find a different room to stay in but I just need some space for and I gave him a time limit. I thinkI said like five or seven days or something like that. Um but his response and this kind of goes with the boundaries. His responsewas just immediate defensiveness, anger, frustration, and then shame. I can't do anything right.I'm just the worst. Um, you know, just it just makes me feel likeit's just this unhealthy cycle of like like yes, he did respect my boundary anddidn't try to be like, "Oh, I can, you know, explain his way out of it." Cuz I think at that point he knew he wascaught. But I think that's like the first and last time I ever held up that boundary just because going through thatcycle was so awful. Like it was just such a bad experience of him being soshameful and shameridden. And I'm just trying to stand like like stay in my power of like hey cuz I did need thespace. I did need the um you know and soI don't know how was that a good thing to do a bad thing to do. I mean,yeah, absolutely. That was courageous and um awesome that you did that, Ally.But the one thing to consider is when we talk about boundaries, the boundarieslike think about they're based from from principles, but they're also knowing where where hestops and you begin. So when you speak your truth and you say, "I need somespace." And he goes to shame or he goes to anger or blame or like what he'strying to do is pull you in. He's trying this. This is where it's like, "Look, you rescue me. Um you're the problem.You're overboard. You're this, you're that or or whatever." Or I'm the worst. Come save me. So he's trying to pull youin. And your boundary is knowing where he stops and you begin. and and it it might feel a little bit cold in thosemoments, but he needs to learn how to go deal with his shame. He needs to learn how to go deal with frustration aroundsomething you say or do. Um rather than you you step in and take care of it inthat moment. And he's probably used to you caving a little bit in those moments. And you're absolutely right when you saidthat. I was like, "Oh, I totally That's like why I felt so bad about it cuz I just felt like he just like turned itaround so quickly." And I was Yeah. And that So, so he'll he'll push one button and if it doesn't work, likehe'll go to the shame thing and then if you don't come rescue then he'll go to the blame like you'reyou'll never love me. I'm never enough. I'm or the disappear and work thing. And then if that doesn't work, he'llYeah. He'll go just shut off or he'll go to hopelessness. like he'll try different things to get you. And when hestarts to realize like, oh shoot, like Alli's not the answer here.Um I'm the answer. So now I need to go turn to my recovery, go work that, get really accountable and honest withmyself. Um figure out why I'm not holding space for her in this moment. I did I did click on something. I did likenot disclose it. I lied about it and that's the truth. and I need to clean that up and I need to deal with that.Um, all of a sudden it's not about you anymore, right? But do you see how hard that is in thatmoment? Like that is really this is why your support system matters. So as soon as he starts turning the tables and hestarts gaslighting in these ways, you call somebody that you've you've worked on this relationship. You brought himinto that inner circle. You fortified your recovery and you're like, "Look, talk me through this. I need to stay strong.I need to hand this back over to him. Right? Do you see what's the most loving way to give it back to him?And that's that's the second part of the discussion. So most of us measure our boundaries by the response of the personthat we're working the boundaries with as as right or wrong. And that's never the right answer. Yeah. No.Like you're shocked that your husband's going into his shame over a change in your relationship. Oh, is the boundarywrong? Right. No. No. The boundaries are from an internal internal place andespecially a wrestle with higher power on my values and your values are also that you care about him and that youlove him. So then after the initial boundary and then he goes into that spaceask yourself how would I invite things to go right without losing myself or myvalues. And so now as I'm staying there, instead of getting sucked all the way into like, "No, no, no, no, you're a really good man." Like, "Actually,you're a really good guy." Like, um, instead it's going to be more like, "Oo, I can see that you're working throughsome shame right now." And I imagine that's pretty rough for you. I I hope that you reach out to someone in yourgroup or your sponsor or somebody and get yourself put back together. Turn that right back over. Like, I know you're capable of that.Like, let me know when you're ready to talk again. I definitely need see that in my life that I need to do that better. For sure.Yeah, that's practice. But it's hard because you have that internal part that Brandon's talking about that's like, "No, no, no. I don't want the brokenattachment there either." Like, and I'm not I don't want to feel like I'm mean, you know? You're like, you probably havea part of yourself that feels like I had a woman one time do an art project and she had this little tiny dog that wasbarking and then she had a big massive dog that was barking and she said, "Every time I set a boundary, I thinkI'm this dog, but I'm actually really this little one." you know, but it feels like I'm just being somean. And it's like, no, you're not. You're not being mean. Remember, what I'm doing is inviting.My boundaries are an invitation as much as they are a wall. They're, "Hey, I want you in my space if you can livethese values, right?" Um, so that's what you're doing on that second part of the conversationwhile you let him be him. Okay, that's really good. I definitelysee how that is needed in those boundary moments and how I canI just see I think I need to be more aware of my response to his defensiveness and his um the way that hekind of just falls back into shame and I can't do anything right. So,I was reading a book. It was called I can't remember. It was called like how to be an adult or something. And it'sinteresting because we all show up as kids. Like we all do it. I hate to admitit, but and and what kids do is they want their needs met and so they getstrategic with trying to get their needs met. And it's like I I have one of my kids shuts down all the time and mopesaround and plays the victim. Um, I have another one that gets big and loud andjust like yells and she just explodes, right? And so like they do these differentthings and they're different humans, but they do them over and over again because to some degree they work.And and if I become a child with them, then they really work. But when Iregulate my emotions and I'm a safe place and I'm honest and I give theconsequences back to them, then they learn. They actually I give them theopportunity to learn because I'm not engaging. The power struggle is not there. The unhealthy attachment isn'tthere. So now they get to learn because I'm just the steady presence with thetruth with what the truth is in that moment. Same same thing happens in our relationships.Um, and whose job is it to be the adult? Whoever can be in that moment. Yeah.I think to speak to that, I feel like because I see like what you're saying about like even my own children becauseI like very much approach discipline that way. Like I will not be part of that crazy like these are the rules,these are the consequences. I'm sorry you chose that. Let's move on. Um, and so I think that part of mylike part of the reason I feel like I have a hard time doing that with Aaron is because then it does put me in that one up one down power position or feellike the mom and I like despise that because I feel like there's been other parts in our marriage where I felt likethat like getting up in the morning when we first were married or things like that. It's like I'm not your mom. Like why are you expecting me to wake you up?You know what I mean? So I feel like um it was my like I feel like that putsme in that position which is why I think I also try not to be put that makes sense.Is there a way to do it where you're not condescending right because think of the think of the alternative is like if he'sacting like a child and you don't want to feel like the mom so should you go act like the child with himright? No. like be the adult, but don't be condescending. You're not his mom.You're his wife. You You see his power. You believe in him. I want you to step up as a manbecause you're my husband. Um and and so I'm not going to be condescending, but he might feel thatway. He still might take it that way, right? Yeah. Yeah.So, did we get to your question today, Ally? I think so. Yeah. If Yeah. I definitelyam excited to listen to this back um and just um like work on those boundaries, workon um work on the things that I can work onfor myself and just your encouragement that I'm headed in the right direction. So, I'll definitely be looking hopefullyfor a new therapist soon and um just really building out a team of support so that I can be standing in thoseboundaries and showing up in a healthy way for my husband and my kids. We can help you with a good therapist.And if he listens to this, like, I'd love to meet him. I'd love for you guys to come on as a couple if he had thecourage to do it. I'd love it. So, he doesn't know that I'm here today. Like, he's he's out of town. I think ifI told him that I was this, he'd be like, "What?" Just random just randomly text it to him like, "Oh, look what came out today. Iheard a really I heard a really great podcast today." Yeah. Uh yeah, I would love that. Iwould love if he could listen back. So, yeah, he is.Ally, I don't I don't know if you're already there or not, but another starting place for you that could just give a little bit more support would beat um what Brandon and I have with reclaimyouheart.org. if you're not on that already. But there's just a freecommunity there where people can get on and ask questions and keep a discussion going and get some support that way,too. That would be that would be like the light level. What I'd love for you to have is, you know, a good therapistand or a good like core couple group of women that you could really that would understand what you're working on andand support you that way. So, um, thank you. Thank you for coming on today and for sharing yourself so much.So great to meet you guys. I just really appreciate your hearts and uh just the wisdom that you guys have. So,thank you. Thank you to our listeners. If there's anything valuable here for yourself or forsomeone that you know, please share. Um if you like what you're getting from Brandon and I, another way to support uswithout costing anything is just to like and subscribe on any place you're listening. And uh we love having you. Welove your feedback. And until next time, keep on keeping on.