How Does Church and Sex Contribute to Shame?

2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess. What a deal. 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I It's beyond therapy, the best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. How does church and sex contribute to shame?What's up you guys? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast. I'm Brandon. I'm Tyler. We're brothers.We're therapists. We're not afraid of your questions. So bring it.[Music]All right, before we answer that question, I have a really quick review here and it says, "This podcast providesgreat opportunities for connection with my wife and vulnerability between us."So, great review. Thank you so much. Appreciate your feedback.All right. So, um, our last episode, my brother Tyler and I, we talked about, um, how to whatwhat's a good therapist and what's not a good therapist. And I so happen to havea friend named Valerie, and she's an amazing therapist, and I can tell because I've talked to her before. I'velistened to her podcast, and she just gets it. So, um, she reached out to meand I wanted her to come on our podcast and the topic that we have today I think is so important. So, Valerie, welcome tothe podcast. It's good to have you here today. Hey, Brandon, it is so good to be here and I would have to agree that I thinkyou're an excellent therapist. So, here we are. Well, we're we're in alignment on a lot of things. And I think I wasjust saying to you earlier, we we kind of see the outcomes of of of culture,the outcomes of certain beliefs that lead to things like shame and addiction.And um some of them are are not so easyto see unless you you can you can kind of see through it. And so, so that'skind of what we want to talk about today is, you know, how does church actually contribute to to shame? Um, and in whatways does it does it really confuse us in terms of our sexuality as well? So,that's a big topic. Where do we begin? Right. Um, Valerie, what's been yourexperience with with some of your clients and and what you see? Thank you for that. And that's a greatway to open us up, Brandon. And I was just as you were framing the question I was kind of internally chuckling becauseI have said many a time and I say this a little bit tongue and cheek but not really that in my work with couplesaround sexual health and the prevention of sex addiction andthe recovery of sex addiction all of them that I don't know who to be morefrustrated with the porn industry or the church. Yeah. Yeah. because it is they're two ends ofthe spectrum, but they are both grossly problematic in helping people understandhow to be sexually healthy human beings. Absolutely. No question. And I knowsomeone listening to that might be might might think, "Oh my gosh, she just she just lumped the church in with the pornindustry." But you're absolutely right. I mean, I I do sex addiction counselingtherapy in Utah County. And so I see it from both sides. I I get, you know, theporn industry and how they're they're infiltrating everywhere, but then I alsoget to see the shame underneath that's driving the addictive behaviors. And alot of it comes from uh the c the Christian culture of church and the theshould culture that we have and the lack of of acceptance of sexuality and an understanding of self. And so yeah, I II I share your frustration completely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I have definitelynoticed, you know, you and I do the same kind of work and man, it's so intriguing to sit in the room hour after hour withcouples where you notice phenomena that seems to repeat itself over and over again. And I think one of the thingsthat I have noticed, I don't know that I can explain why, but in couples thatcome together, it is not unusual for one of the partners to bevery, very rigid around their ownunderstanding of sex or I would go so far as to say maybe a misunderstanding of what sexual health is. In otherwords, I would I would consider them to be very sexually underdeveloped as far as their identity development goes. Yes.And then on the other extreme to have someone Hang on, Valerie, before you go on. Sothat looks like like I I'm not sexual. I shut it down. I'm righteous and I just II only have I only think about sex with my spouse and that's all that happensever. And that's right. Well, yeah. Yeah. And just to carry that on a little further, I mean, I think itwould also go so far as to say things like having a sexual thought outside of the idea of it being with a partner iswrong, is bad. Um, also a lot of very prescribeddictates around what kind of sex is okay, when it's okay, how often it's okay. Imean, a lot of what I would consider to be rules and regulations around the sexual relationship itself um that arethat are um the constructs of the person's well, it's not just one thing.It's oftentimes family of origin. It can also be dictated by uh they've been socialized that way in the home, butthey've been socialized that way through the teachings of pastors or ministers or youth leaders in the church. Um it'svery culturally defined and then they so so there's a lot of rigidity that's experienced as just the way it is.Yes. Um but it's always driven by a ton of anxiety. I mean I've noticed that as kind of across the board it's veryanxiety driven. Right. It's forced driven. It's it's fear-based. Yes. So so let's let's put these theseconstructs everywhere because of fear because you're you know if if you are ifyou are sexual you're going to sin. You're going to cause destruction. all kinds of horrible things will happen.And so, so yeah, that's what you were saying. So, I I like what you say, underdeveloped, because our sexuality is about exploration andvulnerability and self-discovery and and all of those things. And I think,you know, when I talk about that, some people might might be listening saying, "Well, then you're just going to go have sex with whomever, and that that's whatis that what you're saying a developed sexual person is?" No, that's not what we're saying. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. And Ithink that's the thing that that's why they stay rigid and that's why they stay underdeveloped is this idea that likethis thing is bigger than me and I don't understand it and if I don't keep a real heavy like hand around it all, you know,I will lose control. And furthermore, not only will I lose control, but the scarier thing is my partner will losecontrol. If I don't control his or her sexuality that like we don't it's too big for us. So we have to be reallyrigid around it. Yes. So, we put fear all around it so that we are in control and we're inalignment with God because now we're not sinning and and that somehow is healthy sexuality, right? Andyeah. Yeah. So, so what's the what's the problem with that, Valerie? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the idea here in sexual health is that in orderfor it to be developmentally, how do I say this? developmentally healthy sex isall about being deeply known, seen, and it's around freedom and um explorationand play. Yeah. Right. And so, I mean, there are some minimum standards around what I would consider sexual health, you know, weit's in private, it's with the chosen other. Sure. It's there are there are it's not like we're saying there's there's noparameters, right? Because there are a few that are very important. Sure. But once you have that chosen relationshipand once you're committed to it and you're committed to your own growth, it's about letting yourself be freewithin that relationship. Yes. Yes. And I think that is the thing that is so entirely frightening that we are reallyinterested in developing our souls and our spirits and all you know all the things. But when it talks about in developing our sexual selves and evenand even doing that internally before we enter into a pair bond, that'sterrifying to people. Yes. Yes. I I want to tell you a story. Yeah. I had a one of my best friendswhen he was 14 went to his dad who was who's very religious um and said, "Dad,I I want you to give me a blessing because I'm getting too many erections."So, we laugh at that. But sad. Yeah, that is sad, right? And but hisdad said, "Okay, son, I will." And he gave him a blessing that he wouldn't give. He's a 14-year-old boy withhormones just pumping through his veins. And so this this story, the reason Itell this story is it's a good example of what message is that father sending tohis son. And his son is already feeling like I am broken. I am disgusting.There's something wrong with me. And the father drives it home by saying, "Yeah, son. Let's help you. Let's help you notbe a sexual being." Right. Because Right. Yeah. Well, what you're saying basically what the child was saying is, "Dad,there is something wrong with me." And really the thing that's so sad about this is what he was basically saying is, "Dad, please protect me from beingnormal." Yeah. Listen to that. Please protect me from being normal. This is and and to to have that ideaand to sort of again have it be endorsed by by his father, who I'm sure was well-meaning all day long, right? Tosay, "Yes, let's do this. Let's root this out of you so that on your wedding night it can wake up and flourish, youknow. Yeah. And just just go and then it's good. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I I mean I can tell youjust just to kind of to tag on to what you're saying, I have had so many experiences of clients in session whohad some experience that frightened them about their own developing sense of sexuality which was absolutelydevelopmentally normal. Yes. and they were so frightened by it and kept it in or they were brave enoughto share it with somebody and were shamed by it. Yes. And that they put such a lid on it thatthey were never I mean that's why they're in therapy. They do not know how to to loosen that part of themselves upthat they did such a good job of per se um of of shutting down. Yeah. And that's that's that's a tragedy. youjust described what I hear day in and day out. And it's it's when that sexuality, that beautiful part of usthat that God created um at an early age starts to go underground.And and when it goes underground, then it becomes it becomes mixed with secrecy.Yep. And and with that secrecy, sexuality and secrecy, you put those together, you start to feel like if people really knewme, they would they wouldn't love me. They wouldn't accept me. they they wouldn't think that I'm okay. Yum where healthy sexuality is about exploration. It's about getting erections when you're 14 years old.It's normal. It's normal. Um and it's a little bit different for everybody. Their experience in thatsexual development is different for everybody. So, like shaming our kids, you know, if if uh youknow, let's say I caught my son looking at pornography, but let's say he's like 13 or 14 yearsold. I could say to him, "What are you doing? Knock it off. That's horrible, right?What's wrong with you?" Right? What's What's wrong with you? That's a sin. You You better go You better go talk to a church leader because you area sinner. Yeah. And that is the worst thing, right, Valerie? Yep. Yeah. Whereas whereas I need to meet it withso much understanding and teaching and love and and help him understand hisbody and his desires and why he wants to do what he wants to do, right? Long before I'm saying, "Knock it off,you sinner." Yes. Yes. And to just beautifully said Brandon and I think the thing that is sohuge in this developmental age of these kids that we're working with to helpthem cultivate sexual health is this idea that number one the drive and thedesire is absolutely healthy. Yes. And secondly that the reason why we'reasking them to choose away from pornography is because we so deeplyvalue what they can someday become as sexual human beings. you know, in the inthe sort of playing it out in its fullest expression. And that what they're doing is actually like againthat the drive and the desire is healthy, but we want what they want, which is to have a fullness of sexualexpression in the right time, in the right place with the right person, and that they're they're doing these kindsof things in the right order is what matters. And you know, one thing I will say, one more little quick thing that I'll say is I was working with somebodyand kind of talking about how I'm trying to play this out with my own, you know, four teenage children. And I said, youknow, we do the best thing we the best work that we do in our home is trying to make sex,this is going to sound kind of funny, but we make it as unsexy as possible. In other words, so normal in our family, inour home to talk about things that are sexual in nature in a very appropriate way,but we don't want them to feel like they have to get their facts from some hidden source.Exactly. Right. It's covert. It's It's awkward. It's weird. So, let's not talk about itbecause it's happening inside. It's happening whether or not we know about it. And they will they will do what ittakes to figure it out because they need to know. these kids need and want to know and they deserve to know,right? If I if I go to my son and I say, "Hey, like don't be sexual." Um, shutthat down, right? Um, I I'm actually in a lot of ways uh if I go to my son and say, "Don't desireto look at pornography. You better not desire that." I'm actually probablyum reinforcing him going to look at pornography. And yes, it's it's the samething with my adult clients where if I just go like, you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you shouldn't, it's bad,and they white knuckle and get some sobriety for a while and then they binge because they're trying to forcethemselves not to be sexual beings. It's this control and release thing with the shame that's underneath allalong. Precisely. And the the visual that I use to teach that that very principle,Brandon, is this idea of um is a of a river. And Dan Seagull, Dr. Dan Seagull uses this in another way, but I' I'vekind of co-opted it to help people understand sexual health, which is this idea that emotional and mental health iskind of like a river. And if we're floating in the middle of the river, we areSo, you might have to edit this out because I'm trying to think of the right word. In the middle of the river is emotional health.Okay? It's it's the word is escaping me. This is killing me.It's flexibility. It's emotional flexibility. Okay. On either side of the river in each of the banks is rigidityon the one hand and chaos on the other hand. The church is rigidity. Not not thechurch proper, but when the church is not executing sexual health in a in a way that's helpful in their teachings,that when it's black when it's black and white, that's how it is. Yes. That's that's the rigidity side. And the chaos side of course is the pornindustry. Well, yeah. Okay. And so what we end up doing when we teach rigidity and not sexual healthdown the middle of the river, which is of course adaptive and flexible, what we end up doing is people move from theextreme rigidity that is not in keeping with their divine nature. Yes. And they jump over to chaos. Yes.And then they feel so much shame at the chaos that they're experiencing that they jump back to rigidity. And it'sjust it go they go back and forth but they never actually achieve um what what I sexual health which is in the middle.And that's what I think you and I are trying to help teach people starting in their adolescence at best but we're also trying to unte them all of the things intheir in their adult years when they come to us. Right. I I love that analogy. It's butit's such a it's it's such a dialectic though. It's such a hard thing to to grasp in thatthe you know the rigidity is bad structure is okay.Yeah. Um the chaos just just letting yourself go completely that's not helpful to toself-discovery and and health, right? Um but flexibility is good. And so it'sthat middle ground where where real health exists and and self-discovery andand and then it leads to healthy sexuality because now you have you havesafety because you have enough framework there, right? Which is good. The structure is not the problem. It's awesome. But you also have freedom,enough freedom within that flexibility to to let go and to allow yourself to beand to be sexual. And that's where healthy sexuality exists. Yes. Andexactly. And I do think church is um you know, Ithink church's rigidity in a lot of ways does lead to acting out in that chaoticway. And and well, and that's where that's where my my joke at the very beginning of our time together came in, which is I I knowtheir hearts are right. It's like, in other words, I know when a good youth leader comes in and really comes down onthose kids for sexual thoughts, right? Or or don't ever touch your penis. Right. Right. When it's really prettylike prescriptive and like certain rules and regulations. As a matter of fact, I know there's a booklet um that kind oftalks about like the the languaging is even if you have or enter into anysituations or read or see or participate in anything that is that brings up sexual urges, thoughts, and desires, youknow, do away with it. And I and it's like, well, then we might as well just cancel every church dance.And amen. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to help these kids metabolize deeply sexual feelings,thoughts, and instincts, and then channel them in the direction of health. We want them to feel those things.Yes, I know the book. I know the booklet. I know the exact passage that you're talking about in that book.Yeah. It's it's it's not good. It does not teach principles that lead ultimately to health. It it gives youand I a ton of job security, but that is not what we want, my friend. Right. No. I'd love to go out of business,please. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Um it's it's uh the the pathway to I Ibelieve um actually having healthy control about your sexuality is isthrough acceptance of your sexuality. Beautiful. Not not through rejection of your sexuality. Right. And so I I thinksomething if if I can get a little preachy here, Valerie, uh we're kind of taught that the natural man is an enemyto God. That the natural man is bad. Subdue your natural man. Umand and I think I think in that we we learn how to constantly reject oursel,constantly tell ourselves that as we are innately built um we are we are brokenand we need to we we need to be careful of ourselves. Yeah. And I like to air on the the other sideof things which is I'm created in God's image. I am a son of God and mysexuality and my wildness and my desire for adventure and all those thingsactually aren't things that I need to subdue. They're things that I need to love about myself and embrace aboutmyself. And if I can start with that, with the acceptance piece, um not withthe shame and not with the rejection piece, then I'll have a lot of power to step into my purpose and be the man thatGod made me to be. Um, do you see what I'm saying? Oh, I I love what you're saying becauseI think what we're trying to do ultimately is come into relationship that is fully accepting not only ofourselves, but when we do that, we can well, let me let me go backwards a little bit. When we can own and reallyaccept God's infinite and eternal love for us before, during, and after any behavior of ours,yes, then we start to really understand our full potential. And when we do that, weexperience our struggles, sexual and otherwise, as developmental. Yes. Right. Like I'm not sinning even whenI'm making a mistake. I I become wounded from time to time when I make mistakes, sexual or otherwise. But it's all in theservice of learning about who I am and recognizing that when I do the things that bring me closer to God, I'mhappier. Yes. You realize your divine purpose. Okay. I I want to play devil's advocatewith you, though. This will be fun a little bit. All right. Let's do this. Okay. If I Okay, Valerie, what you're saying soundsgreat, but um if if I really want to be of God, then I need to be righteous. Andand being righteous means that um I don't do certain things. So, I better berighteous to be worthy of God's love, to be to to have God's power in my life, right?Okay. Okay. So, you want me to respond to that, right? Is that what I'm hearing you say? Okay. Okay. So, I guess what Iwould the way I would respond to that, Brandon, is that our I'm I'm going to put your words righteous in like littlehand quotes because I think that kind of in my mind to me makes me think about I need to be perfect.I need to do the very best I can to be without sin or without fault.And okay, and I think that gets kind of tricky because that's that's the impossible ask.That's true, right? Like none of us are perfect. And so if we are grading ourselves on this scale that God loves meif I'm perfect then God isn't God doesn't love us because we can't be perfect.Yes. And Right. Okay. So and then the other thing too is that we believe in thenecessity of a redeemer or a savior. Yes. Which also means that we need toacknowledge from day to day that not only are we not expected to be perfect, but being perfect would keep us distantfrom the relationship that we can and need to have with Jesus Christ to help heal us.Yes, that's really deep what you're saying, but so true. And so, so one morequick thing that I'll say and then you can we can I'll throw the ball back in your court, which is that I need asavior, which means I am definitely not perfect. And that perfection is not about beingwithout sin. Perfection is recognizing that I want to become whole. And tobecome whole, I have to know every part of myself, including my sexual self, which alsomeans I am going to make mistakes from time to time. And that is part of the journey towards a closer relationshipwith self and with God. And so I have to make those mistakes.Um okay, man. I just want to say amen to that, but I want to keep playing here a little bit.Okay. Okay. Go for it. Um Oh, but then aren't you condoning umsin and won't I just kind You just gave me permission to kind of cheat on my wife and go have sex with whoever Iwant, right? because if that's just me learning and that's right.So, thank you for that. You're you're you're you're playing hard ball with me now. Okay. So, the way I would respondto that is to say that the reason why we want to do what's right or what is umsay for example, let's let's the cheat on my wife thing, right? Okay. God doesn't want us to cheat on ourpartners. Not because it's sinful, but because it hurts us.Yes. It hurts us. It hurts them. It brings us pain and suffering. God is notinterested in the fact that we sin because it makes him mad or because it disappoints him or it's a betrayal ofhim. God doesn't want us to do those things because he doesn't want us to suffer.Yes. And so when we do those things, we suffer and yes, we learn. But moreimportantly, it hurts us. Yes. And it estranges us from what? from our full capacity to be peaceful and to bewhole. And so yes, we will learn the lessons and very necessary ones sometimes when we cheat on our partnersor do those things, right? And sometimes it's necessary that we have to go through tough things. And I think Julian of Norwitch said, "See sinis behoo," meaning it's necessary. It's part of the plan. And yet if we can prevent it,we will be happier and we will be more at peace with ourselves. So, it's notmandatory, but it sometimes is um part of the process. Yes. So, I'm I'm kind of hearing yousay, you know, if I were to go sin, then I would I could learn from that. I couldgrow from that. Um but if I try to force myself not to cheat on my wife becauseI'm worried that God won't love me if I if I do that, then that actually doesn'tit doesn't serve me. No. Um, but if I realize that I I don't want that pain, I don't want thatconsequence. So, like I, you know, go cheat on my wife.I'm not going to go cheat on my wife because I actually choose I choose to not cheat on my wife, not out offorce and control and shame. Um, right. Or fear. Or fear. Right. Because the theidea here is that again inside of the frame you're kind of talking about the wrong frame is that I have to do thisbecause unless like I have to be true to my wife in your example or God will bemad at me or God won't love me anymore. In other words, this is what I would kind of like call a transactionalrelationship with God. And the fact of the matter is that you and I work with all the time in our work together as therapistsis there is no transaction involved here. God loves us all the time. He loves us before wecheat on our partners. He loves us during and he also loves us after. The big the big difference here in in in theparadigm you and I are trying to talk about is that he loves us so much thathe hates to see us suffer. But sometimes well maybe even all the time even in oursuffering through his love we will learn things. Yes. But he'd rather us not have to suffer.But his love never changes. It never goes away. It's not on the table. Yes. And and and we know that. I knowthat personally, but I also know that because I work with with people who have struggled and made mistakes.And I can feel God's love for them. I know God loves them just as much as as God loves me, you know. So,you know, well, and I would just I would just add to that, Brandon, that when I'm working, especially I'm going to pivotover to the to the addict for a second. It is it is the moment that that finallysinks in that they begin to heal. Yes. 100%. And it's because they when theyfeel that they have to do something or be someone before they can be loved,the addiction still is holding on to you'll never get there. You'll never get over that. Yes. And as soon as I mean and I tellyou what, it takes me I don't even know how many hours that I just committed my therapy to looking into the eyes of these women and men and saying it itdoesn't matter. You are loved. You your worthiness is not and has never been on the line.You're as broken as you know I I hate even to use the word broken. We're all wounded is the better word. Right. Right.We are wounded and yet in our wounds we are beloved. And as soon as they can grab on to that,then they recognize that I want to do differently because this struggle that I'm having is preventing me from thefrom becoming the whole person that God knows I can be. And we're motivated not by shame. We're not motivated by tryingto prove something or to sort of be strong. We're motivated because we finally understand and have a fullness,a a more full understanding of our own potential to be in connection withourselves because we recognize how lovable we are. Well, yeah. And then we're in our powerand our purpose with God. Precisely. That's what we call recovery. Like that that is what recovery really is.Well, and then when people come back and they've, you know, as is typical, right? Because it's it's there's never it'snever a straight line between A and B. when they come back and if they've struggled or slipped up or whatever, thethe attitude that they bring or the sense of grace that they bring isremarkable, right? They're still striving, but they aren't sort of drowning in a pool ofshame. And most of the time, most of the time, what I think you and I have to do, kind of circling back alittle bit to how the church interacts with this, is they have to overcome some of the uh the false traditions of whatthe church how the church treats them. In other words, they have to basically say, I know the church means well,but they don't have a full understanding of what recovery is and what sex sexualhealth is and what even addiction is and what that means about who I am. It's like they're able to sort of s supersedeand overcome the things that they've heard and the way people may see them. They seethemselves differently and independent of the institution and its shortcomings.Well, sex I mean sex and sex addiction it's like the it's the thing. It's thebig nasty sin, right? Like Yeah. It's different than all the other ones, right? It's worse. I mean I I had a guy he was he wasbeating his wife. He was he was he was stealing. He he was a crook in his business.And and he you know he met with a church leader and they said, "Stop it. Don't do that." And then I had a kid I was working withwho was like a 20-year-old kid who was looking at pornography and he got dysfellowshipped from the church. AndI'm like looking I'm looking at those two things. I'm like, "Huh?" Right. But because one is one is sexual, right?It's hard to and I really love what you just said is the the men in recoverythat I work with are the ones that that can be resilient to those messages ofshame around their sexuality and they can actually embrace who they are sexually. They can they can talk openlyabout their triggers. They can deal with things that come. They're open about their arousal template. they can likeall those things happen and then they're not acting out in their addiction all the time and well and they're modeling something thatinterestingly people that who have people who have not been through what they're going through will maybe neverunderstand and I mean I have said over and over again to to the women and themen that I work with that it is very likely that you are going through this precise struggle because you have andyou will have the power to heal people in a way that no bishop could heal orcould be instrumental in healing who sits there from his judgment seat having no idea what it's like to have gonethrough true and deep and profound transformation of their sexual selves.They just cry when they when we talk about that. I was just talking to someone just right before we we started talking and we were having aconversation and and he said, "Do you think God would want a porn addict to bea leader in in the church?" And he asked the wrong guy. Um,right. Because I said I said, "Actually, I think right now that's needed more thanever." Oh gosh. Yes. You know, some and I'm not saying a guy who's totally like in chaos land righton the other side of the river. Sure. who's lost right now, who's not there yet. But yeah, we need people who who havethat wisdom, who have that experience of recovery, who can speak openly about the atonementin their life, um, and who fully understand it. That's what we need. We don't need examples of justperfectionism. And that it's not helpful. That's not helpful. It's actually not only is it not helpful, it's hurtful,destructive. It's destructive. It's destructive. And so to have someone who has been throughif it's necessary for them to go through an addiction to achieve the transformation of recovery, then I wouldtake that every time in an ecclesiastical leader. No question. Yeah.Um, wow, Valerie. I feel like we're just scratching the surface, right? Amen, brother.Yeah. Um, so, but before I let you go, talk to us about what you have going on.Talk to us about your podcast. tell us what what you're doing. So, I run a podcast. So, I'm a therapistuh and I work I have a private practice, but really well, I shouldn't say but andmy passion is this. I absolutely love a chance to teach and to share and witnesswhat it looks like to heal and how possible it is and how so many of us umjust need to know that there's hope out there. And so, that's what my podcast is. It's called Voices About Living andI interview my own clients and we basically walk through the process oftheir healing journeys. And I do sex addiction recovery, but I also do marriage counseling. I do individualwork with folks going through faith transitions, uh, divorces, parenting struggles, depression, anxiety, kind of,uh, kind of the full gamut. And the whole thing is all about just offering people hope that healing andtransformation is not only possible, but it's very, very likely if we're put in a safe place with somebody who deeplyloves us and sees us as we really can be. Awesome. You know, Valerie, when I when when I don't know how we got connected,but when I you reached out to me or whatever, I listened to your podcast andum why I definitely wanted to to work with you and and record with you was asI listened to your podcast, I could actually see um this strong belief thatyou have about God's unconditional love um in your work with your clients and umyou know as I was listening to you interview them they could feel that from you and I I thought yes that's I meanthat's the work that I try to do and so the podcast is powerful it's real it'sraw so go check it out you guys and they can find it on iTunes and your what'syour website Spotify yeah um Valerie Hammocker Therapy is my handle on Instagram and Valerie.com ismy website and you've touched me I'm kind of tearing up over here, Brandon. I really appreciate that. That means a lot to me as a fellow therapist whom Irespect and admire a great deal and it's such a treat and a pleasure that we have um come into contact and I hope we cando many more of these. This is awesome. Valer, you're a warrior and you're doing good work. So, keep likewise, sir.Awesome. Thank you guys. Thanks for listening. If you found this helpful, please rate and review the podcast andwe'll talk to you next time. See you. [Applause] Heat.Heat. [Music]