How much information is too much information?

How much information is too much information? Brandon, you're looking good today, man.Hey, thank you. You were just Anyone on YouTube, you guys should see Brandon's flowing lockstoday, dude. They're just like, they're beautiful. I can't get control of it. It's just likeI go back and forth. You know how I grew my hair way out, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um I don't want to do that again becauseit's so uncomfortable. That was more of like a statement you were making. I thinkI I like the hippie look, you know? Just why not? I got I got the hair. It fits your aura now.Yeah, it's my aura. I like that. My aura. But so now I got this like weird mullet thing. I I look like a15-year-old kid at my kid's school that like, you know, has this big poofy thing. Yeah. I think that's like I've I neverthought I would see the day where the the kids like are all getting the boys are getting their hair permed again. Andin your case, it looks that way, but that's just the body of your hair. Yeah. I mean, do you like it? I looklike a 15-year-old kid. 67, man. 67.I actually really I've always been jealous of your curly your curly hair. Hey, maybe this will get people over toYouTube to go check this hair out cuz wow.Maybe. Anyway, 67 is overdone.I still don't understand that. I'm I'm an old geyzer, I guess. That's the point is is us guys don't.And then they laugh at us even though it does make no sense. It's a form of gaslighting probably.Yeah, they're just gaslighting our generation. Umanyways, um let's dive in. We got us a caller today, um I think with with somegood questions. So Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, if you could uh just give us alittle bit of what's going on with you, a little bit of background, and we'll go from there. Yeah. Um my wife and I have been marriedfor 14 years. Um I've been doing deeper recovery work for the last four years.Um, but uh I was kind of honest with mywife before we got married of um just struggles that I've had. And so she kindof has known the whole time. I think in our naivveness we expected marriage tosolve a lot of things. Um and unfortunately that's not the reality.Um, and I tried to do different work here andthere and just kind of peace meal. Um, kind of fighting the addiction. Um, butnothing ever really stuck. So, the last four years have been more intense. Um,and that really stem from my wife uh doing deeper therapy work and realizinglike the betrayal trauma that she's experienced. um and just how that'saffecting her and realizing that she can't really heal without me healing. So, that really was the impetus behindme going to more intense therapy and and doing more more work. Umuh this past year um has been really difficult. Um anduh after just you know constant relapse it feels like umuh there was kind of ultimatums given and so I ended up going to a twoe intensive in May um and that was veryhealing and and very good um and we did like 90-day abstinence after that. Um,and we've done formal disclosure with our therapist. Um, but there's stillbeen some relapses, like three relapses since September. And so I listened recently to theepisode with Cassidy and just hearing that uh her story with her husband andfeeling like that was very similar to us of likemy wife should get a master's degree in therapy with how many books she's readand how much stuff we've gone through and we just like live in this recoveryworld, if you will. And yet there's still I'm still having this struggle.And I feel like she was the wife talking about her story and I felt very much like the husband that she was talkingabout. And so um it brought up the question for me oflike what is too much information to share with my wife? I realized that there's this theme of hiding in my life.Um, and I have recently like kind of unearthed some childhood memories oflike me hiding from my parents, even if I wasn't doing anything wrong. Just this like sense of hiding. And I realizedthat's just kind of like overflowed into this addiction of notum uh being very afraid of being seen. Andand so I really want to be known by my wife. I want my wife to know all parts of me, but I'm I'm really scared. AndI'm also really scared of like how much information is too much information to share? And is there this line thatsharing is actually more damaging or is it just I need to expose it all allthe time? Um, and that's kind of like where my where my head went after that episode. and Iwas really um it just stirred up a lot for me. So that's why I called in.Dude, I'm so glad you you called in here and especially as it piggybacks off of a different episode because now in a sensewe kind of get to do both sides of that episode thanks to your courage. Um,before we dive into that, could I just ask you just maybe just generally you'vebeen kind of everything you just listed off is like all the stuff that you would normally be like check check you knowdisclosure intensive this that I can I just ask you personally um has that allbeen done to keep your marriage and pacify yourwife or has that been done for you and and has there been progress in your own in mind in your own life on some ofthose things like what have been the biggest places of growth for you over the last four years?I mean, that's that's an excellent question. And I was um I keep in contact with the guys I went to the intensivewith, and we just had a call last night, and I was I was literally sharing this last night that like there's still abattle in me of like still caring to protect this addiction. Um yet in mysober mind, not wanting it at all. And just that conflict whichyeah I always go back to like Romans chapter 7 is like I do what I do not want to do but I do it anyway. Like it'sthis conflict that I have that like there's there's it feels like a piece of me is still latched on. And so likethere has been some stuff that like because of trying to save a marriage.Yeah. I may have I' I've gone and done some things to toprotect the marriage. And I see through recovery and through many men that I'vemet, I can see that there is this gift of recovery, but also feeling like there's an element that I'm still kindof protecting in all honesty. But say more about that. So, cuz I'm andI'm kind of hearing you say like there's a part of you, there's a part of your sexuality, who you are, um that you thatlike deep deep down you're feeling like um you're you're not wanting to let goof or not knowing if you can. Um, and so it's like on one hand appeasing her andand going through the motions and on the other hand it and it creates thisambivalence um of like I love the recovery work but but likeI'm not fully in it. Um I can you just say more about that, Kevin?Yeah, it's like um it's like stepping into the unknown oflike I hear about the gift of recovery. I hear about the gift of sobriety andwhat what what's recovery, Kevin? Oh man, this is like a a I have beenstruggling with what is sobriety? Like it it boggles my mind that one dayI can be sober and 30 seconds later I'm no longer sober. Like that just reallyboggles my mind. And what I read somewhere that um sobriety is doing andrecovery is being. And I love all these like theoreticalwhat what's sobby to you? You know,truthfully, I'm struggling. Okay. With what that what that actually means.Yeah. Like what's your you've you've you've done enough like therapy and you've beenin you've listened to enough podcasts and things like likeif you had to make a definition of sobriety like what is it?not doing an acting out behavior. Like what?So for me, for me, yeah, like what's an acting out behavior? It would be pornography andmasturbation. Okay. Is viewing porn and uh I I mightget a little bit like detailed here, but I'm going somewhere here. Um is it likeactual ejaculation? Is it to the point of orgasm? Is or can youTyler and I joke about the term hafterbaiting? Can can you like can you arouse yourself to a point but it's notrelapse so you're still sober? Like what where's the like what's the definitionof sobriety here? Wow, you're getting to it. Um that yeahit would be and I have like walked that line really finely of likethat's a really interesting term hurbating like that that's I've walked that line and for me it's it's the pointof orgasm so disclosure disclosure to your wife happens if that happens like that'sthat's the arrangement that you have with her that's what I havethat's the arrangement I've made with myself. Okay. And that's I think that'sI'm very scared to go there with her. Um,and that's what I need to figure out is like I've been walking the line so closelyand it causes me to just hide and feel like I'm protecting something. And itwas it was kind of that line that you said Tyler at the end of the episode with Cassidy was it's these patterns andthese character flaws that have protected the relapsing. It's like theIt's the There's so many more red flagsleading up to the relapse that I'm not honest about.And I really feel in my heart of hearts that I have to be honest about those things. And I'mI'm just really scared. I guess I can hear it in your voice. I Man, it'spretty raw and real for you to just speak all this out loud because I know there's literally hundreds of people going like, "Oh, he's speaking what I'mfeeling right now." So, I just want I've been terrified to say this and now I'm saying it on a public platform.I know it's actually really powerful, I think, if if people You're not alone, Kevin. if people arereally listening here and and I think where we're going to go today a little bit might be slightly different and we we'll get back around your question in asecond, but I think you're getting somewhere even just by saying this. So, what I'm hearing you say is there's apart of me that I'm clinging to for some reason. Even though I want to give up the acting out part of it,there's that part of me is being protected by other things that I do to protect that part of me. even though vervocally I'm saying I want to get rid of it. And all of those behaviors that are protecting whatever you would call theacting out are firing off red flags in my life, feeding me more shame, moredoubt, more conflict, but they're also firing that off to my wife and that's causing disconnection. And I haven'treally gotten honest yet. And and here's where I think I'm hearing in your voice is even before you get honest with yourwife, I haven't really been fully honest with meabout that part and about these other protective character flaws or behaviorsthat I'm using. Like, so that's where I'm hearing. Brandon, goahead and finish your thought with where you were going. No, I was just just with what you're saying, Tyler. And I I'm hearing maybesomething a little different than you, Tyler. I don't know if it's about Kevin being fully honest with himself. What Iwhat I'm hearing is Kevin, that that you don't know yourself. And so it's hard tobe honest with yourself because you don't really know like what is okay?What is your integrity? um where do you have both acceptance foryour sexuality and your arousal template and still maintain integrity? And atwhat point um with that like at what point do you break that integrity and feel like in order to stay in myintegrity with my marriage, this this warrants disclosure versus like trying to be honest but noteven knowing what that means, right? like at what pointand and this whole this whole talk about sobriety and recovery.Um this is why recovery is so important becauseum when we try to use sobriety to answer these questions, you just get in a in alike tornado of shame. It's like, well, did did I break this? Did I not? Should I disclose? Should I not? Am I sober?Should I to my group? do I and and you're just like swirling in it. But when you do that recovery work,um you're actually recovering a sense of who you are and a trust in yourself andyou understand what your integrity is and you you accept all of you, including your sexuality, and you can show up as atransparent, open, honest human being. Um that loves your both your shadow andyour light. and and that that's recovery. So then it's easy to tonavigate relationships because you can because you're already in that place. Umdo do you see the difference when we go through the front door with sobriety and then throw the complexities of arelationship of like well she's defining what sobriety is this way and you're defining it that way and what does yoursobriety have to do with her like in terms of your definition of sobriety?Well, I feel like it needs to be agreed upon. [Music] It So, what sobriety is needs to beagreed upon between you and her? I would think so.Okay. Um, I would I would suggest something different.Okay. I actually think that you guys having an arrangement is important. So her comingto the table and saying this is I this is what where I feel safe where I don't and what I need that's importantbut for Kevin to do the work to trust Kevin and say this is where as a man Iregulate myself and my recovery is mine and so therefore my sobriety is here andI'm going to be honest about that and I'm going to choose that and I'm going to let you know that this is where I'm at with it. um unto yourself first likethat that happens first. Do you see what I'm saying? And then you come to her andyou make an arrangement in a relationship to say, "How does my sexuality and my recovery work withinthis relationship? And how does her sexuality work in the relationship?" And and what agreements do we have togetheron that? That has nothing to do with sobriety. Are are you following me?Um, so it's it's both you trusting you andknowing you, you involving her in what that disclosure process looks like. Um,but first and foremost, you doing that work on your own. Um, Tyler, am I making any sense? Yeah, I I would just maybeadd something, Brandon Pri, to speak to here because I know that people listening are probably thinking the same thing going through my head right now,which is, okay, I get that. Nevertheless, I'm the kind of, and I'm going to put words in your mouth, Kevin,so tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm also in a relationship with somebody I love, and I want to know their opinions and theirthoughts and their feelings about what my behaviors do to them, because that'll inform where I where I personally drawthe lines a little bit in terms of what I choose to do, the decisions I decideto make, what I what I would consider sobriety or bottom lines or whatever else. Um, so even though they need to bemy decision, I do want to be sensitive to this person that I love because that's the kind of person I want to bein the relationship. The problem the problem with that, Tyler, is when someone struggling withaddiction really lacks a sense of self, what do they what do they do to their partner?They turn to them to get their question answered. That's the that's that's the rub. That's the that's the pinch point here for somany people is because I really do want to be the kind of person who connects toand understands and empathizes and takes into account my partner's feelings and yet I need to be that interdependentpart of me needs to make the the decisions of what who I am and then I need to come back and offer who I am tomy partner which is I think where Kevin's going the scary part because nowwhen I do that my partner might come back and say, "Well, thanks for beinghonest, but that doesn't work for me." Right? That's that's really scary, especially when Kevin just describedI I've spent my whole life learning how to hide. So now So now as I'm steppinginto recovery, the very first lynch pin to my recovery is learning how not tohide and be honest. I've spent a whole lifetime not doing that. So now I'mmight sometimes I almost overcompensate and like I'm going to be honest about everything which means I tell on myself all the time.That's not being honest. And that's not what we're talking about is honesty. Like like if I if I'm tryingto figure out the right thing to say for the relationship and for her and forwhatever somebody's defining sobriety as. That's not being honest. That's that's me being confused.And Right. Right. Like Kevin, I have a random question for you, but I I think you cankind of see where it's coming from. Um, when was the last time you h had or helda difficult boundary with her? Oh,never. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we really struggle with and youjust had an episode about interdependency like and we're definitely like a codependent likeunhealthy. We're trying to get out of this codependentdynamic that's happening in our marriage. Um but that's been the case and that's been part of the rub is umjust in this unhealthy dynamic of well if you're not okay then I'm not okay.and like we we feed off of each other kind of thing. And that's um how to beindep interdependent. Um I think I'll have to listen to that episode a few more times to really likeI it's hard for me to grasp because that that hasn't been our dynamic. Yeah, it's going to require you doingsome real deep trauma work and and figuring yourself out. Um like let megive you a scenario, true scenario. years ago, I was working with a couple and her she came um she had a inquotation marks boundary um that he needed to eat a healthy breakfast every day and um he actuallyhates eating breakfast. He never ate breakfast. Um so he wanted to rebuild trust. He waskind of scared of her. Um didn't know what who he was. Um, what'swhat's the right way to handle something like this?Eat the breakfast.Then it builds resentments, right? And that's that's an area that I'm struggling with in my marriage isbuilding resentments. Um, because I Right. So, let me ask you again. Thatthat's that might be what you would do, but what's the right way to handle it? make a decision for yourself of what youwant to do. Yeah. Like his body, he doesn't like breakfast. He likes to eat like at 11 or 12. And so, but she's going to be upsetbecause she knows in recovery a healthy man eats breakfast and like that's what he should do and I'm goingto be triggered and I'm going to be mad if you don't and I'm going to like I'm going to have a boundary and I'm going to like make you sleep in the basementfor a week. So, what should he do? It's a combination of two things. stay true tohimself and be empathetic and connected to why that's important to her. That's what interdependence is,right? That's what recovery looks like. It's not It says it's not hurry and eat the breakfast and plate her. That's codependence. It's not f you, I do whatI want, take it or leave it. That's like ultimate independence.The middle ground is I want to understand you. I want to understand what's underneath this idea for breakfast. And I'm not sure I'm going toeat breakfast every day, but let's at least talk about the other principles that you're worried about,right? Because Yeah. Yeah. Eating that breakfast is lying to herand lying to himself and showing up weak and thinking that that's going to buildtrust, which is why resentment comes in. Like you said, never going to build trust that way.Right. So Kevin, the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek.the the what if you really want connection and trust with her then youneed to step into your power and trust yourself and and so like let's come back to thewhole sobriety and disclosure thing right um when you're and and I don'tknow how you look at your sexuality but if you look at your sexuality is through the lens of like sin of like it'ssomething that you need to fight and and manage and fight and make sure that umif if you look at it that way, then it's going to always be connected to shame.Um and so when it comes to disclosure, it's going to feel like telling on yourself.Um I did a bad thing again. I versus just owning who you are and yoursexuality. Um, so if she comes along and I don't know what your guys' arrangementis now of what like relapse is and what needs to be disclosed. Um, if she comes along and sayssomething like hey I need like did you relapse or were you looking at thatperson or whatever like how does that go down Kevin between you guys? Um, we try to do a check-in most nights.Um, and involved in the check-in is um, talking about where I am with sobriety.Um, which I totally resent doing the check-ins. It's it it feels like we're only doingthem to talk about where I am with sobriety and so it doesn't feel authentic and genuine and so it's justbeen a struggle. Um but I have a her boundary um isthat if I relapse I have 24 hours to tell her. Um,okay. And so there there is this dynamic of the umfeeling like a mother and a child um where I'm I get in trouble and I getscolded and and that sort of thing. We kind of have that play out a little bit and that'sit it feels very uh I don't I don't know how to get get past that. I I don't knowhow to um which I think is this like codependent thing. I I don't know how tochange that. Um if that makes sense.Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. You guys are putting again you can hear what you just described with some of thecodependent stuff going on and you're you're putting things in the wrong order a little bit. Um,first and foremost, what are your targets for your recovery? Not just sobriety, but recovery.What do you mean targets? Well, what are the things? Take those character flaws that protect the actingout. You you mentioned this before. I think you said, "I've had a I'm hearingin what you said is I've had a history of learning to hide and part of the life that I want to step into is not hiding."Mhm. Right. Um so what if what if that wasthe driving force on your personal boundaries or actions rather thanwaiting for your wife to dictate, hey, you have 24 hours or what? Because the boundary isn't you have 24 hours. Theboundary is I need to know in a timely manner if there's been a mistake so that I can do some things to take care ofmyself. And if you don't do that, then I'm going to need to do other things which you probably won't like for myself.That's her boundary is about her. It's not about you. Right? But what if Kevin was the one whogot there and said, "You know what? I'm realizing now that I want to be anhonest man and an open book with the way that I live my life. And I know that the longer I wait after a mistake, the lesslikely I am to bring it to the surface. So, I'm going to be the one to make sure I bring it up within 24 hours.And then she can have as much or as little disclosure as she thinks is going to be healthy, but I'm going to checkthat with her, too. So, I'm not just compulsively going and telling on myself for the sake of being a good boy.I'm reinforcing that I'm not hiding anymore and I'm willing to share, but I'm also able to temper things if that'snot going to be helpful for her, right? I can do both.I'm going to practice stepping into that space rather than, oh, I've been a bad boy. I got 24 hours to get I basicallyI've been a bad boy. I've got 24 hours to be the dog that has to come in and then get kicked for being a bad dog.Mhm. Mhm. Nobody wants to live that way. Yeah.I I just I want to reach through the screen and like grab you, Kevin, andjust kind of shake you a little bit and then then pull you like straight to rising sun and like and because here'sthe deal, like there's so much more out there when it comes to recovery. I think you need to blow up it all. Blow up allof it. Like I think your systems are not working and the systems that you have in placefeed fear on her part, feed shame on your part and they just they keep perpetuating itover and over again and eventually both of you are going to wear out. Just be done with it.Oh, we're so worn out. I I'm sure you are. And um and and Ithink I think you genuinely are trying to figure out how to do the right things. That's why it's so frustrating. Yeah.Um, like I let everything Tyler just said, like you resent that you have to dothese check-ins. So, let's talk about that resentment for a minute. That resentment or emotionsthat are are coming into you and they're communicating something to you about you, about who Kevin is. What are theysaying? What are the resentments saying? Yeah. What's What's it saying to youabout these check-ins?Um that I'm only as good as my sobrietydate. Okay. Let let me let me just ask you this,Kevin. Just simplify it. Um do you like these check-ins?I like connecting to my wife. Okay. don't like these check.Okay. So, simply put, you love connection to your wife. Yes. You don'tlike the dynamic of the of the like checking in about sobriety?That's not working for you. Yeah. Okay. Can you trust youto to know that that's not working for you?I can I understand why the check-ins are there to help my wife feel safe.Are they're not working to help her feel safe. I promise you.Not the way they're being done. Tyler and I, we've seen this a gazillion times. They could be helpful, but they're notthe way that you guys are doing them. Yeah. What's the helpful way? Well, what whenyou see check-ins like this and what you described, you're basically describing the fear cycle like a and and so it'sjust another it's just a step in that fear cycle. And Tyler actually just justuh outlined what what we suggest, which is is it's not about I'm a little boytelling on myself every day and we're scared of my sexuality and we better manage it together and make sure that ifif you do that, you'll constantly be worried about when's failure going to happen. Mhm.But when she knows your heart and she sees you as a transparent, powerful,humble man, that creates safety and trust and there's risk in that.Yeah. So, we shoot ourselves in the foot where you're saying, "I I think this creates safety." It actually isdeteriorating the safety in the relationship. What would create safety is Kevin coming to the table and saying,"You know what, wife? I love you. I feel a lot of resentment about doing check-ins this way and I can't do thatanymore. It doesn't work for me. That why does that create safety?Because I'm honest. Honesty. Honesty creates trust. And you're trusting yourself that deepdown this resentment, these feelings, your intuition, your gut is saying this is this doesn't work. This isn't good.And you know that, Kevin. So, you need to trust yourself so that you can show up honest with her andshe'll feel like she's with a man that can trust himself.Now, it it will trigger stuff like what you you just don't want tocheck in because you want to lie. You don't want to like all this. It it'll trigger like chaos. It'll trigger fearand stuff, right? So, then after that, do you let's say it triggers all thatand you're like, "Okay, okay, okay, okay. We'll do it. we'll do it. Then you're right back to where you were, right?So then what do you do instead? That's what I don't know.Yeah. And this is just an example because there's many opportunities inyour marriage to to practice this principle.You stay you trust yourself and you stay honest but also loving. And it's thatinterdependency that we talk about. I think one of the hard things for mostpeople, this is something I can totally relate to, is we talk about trust all the time. And I think when especiallywhen we've been on the side of being the one who's hurt somebody else with betrayal,um we feel we already feel built into us this need to try to repair and fix something that now is unfixable by us.Truly, um we can do our best with it. But we associate the word trust with mypartner is happy with me. And and I think that's a mistake.It's a great point. Um I because we want to have that contentment. We want to have peace. We're so afraid of their reaction to usthat that's what's gotten many of us into trouble in the first place is our lack of ability to be honest in thefirst place is what's actually fed the addiction because it's kept everything secret and it's fueled more shame andresentment. And so it it sounds so weird, but like you talk to most betrayed partners and if you were to askthem, would you rather have the honesty of who your partner is, even if you don't like it, or would you rather havethem plate you and and tell you a lie, but make sure you're always happy.Uh, probably 98 out of a hundred are going to be like, "Give me the first one." Even though that sucks because thesecond one sucks worse because then I never actually know where I stand and then I'm always out in no man's land andI don't actually ever feel like I've got a full engagement or a full heart from my partner.I I would rather have the honesty and the hardness and that hardness can lead to great harddiscussions and understandings and practice, you know. So, like, are you doing yourwife a favor if you're withholding everything from her?No. Are you doing her a favor if you hurry and run home and be like, "Okay, so today I saw three women in Walmartand then there was one lady in the car and then I had my thoughts go here today, but then I kind of pulled them back." But then I kind of had a triggerhere, but then I like then I kind of have to bait it a little bit. But then I like Is that going tolike build trust? No. That's what it's going to do is it'sgoing to give your wife a whole bunch of crap to hold. Mhm. And and so when she comes to you like II deserve to know all of that. Okay. Now I've got two things. I want to be an honest man. So, I'm approaching myrelationship from this place of I am willing to be an honest man. I'm alsotrying to be sensitive to what's going to feed the fear cycle versus interdependence. So, when my partnercomes to me, he's like, "Tell me every last thought you had in your head today, what if you paused for a minute andsaid, "Before we go there, help me understand how that's going to be helpful to you."And here's actually what I'm really working on. Here's and here's where Brandon was going. What if you changedthe way you view your sexuality to be something that you are actively cultivatingand harnessing the power of rather than fighting,right? What is cultivation? It steers where the water and the seeds go for the best nourishment.What does harnessing do? It channels power to places that are for good. Whatif you were approaching your relationship with your wife from that perspective of who I am? I'm activelyengaged in learning how to cultivate and harness rather than here's how I wasdangerous to you today. Um, so now I can say, I can see you. I knowthis is scary for you. I know that I've blown things up in your life before. This is what I'm doing to cultivate andharness things. These are the discussions that I think can help us. And we might have to practice a few ofthose. And maybe she's like, "I deserve to know." Okay. Um, I'm not sure this isgoing to be helpful. I think I'm afraid it's going to feed the fear cycle more, but for the sake of practice, I'll tellyou because I'm an honest man. Or I might be honest and say in being honest that I don't see howthat helps us. So, we're going to have to have a different discussion,right? But that's the starting point is this is me.Kev Kevin, do you have do you have any kids? Yeah, I do.How how many? I have four. Oh, wow. Okay. This this example shouldshould hit home then. Um, and I imagine they're pretty young. You don't need togive the ages, but I imagine they're pretty young. Um, when you look at them, um, do youthink, well, they they need to like do A, B, and C inorder for me to actually accept them and love them.Like, I'm sure they're they're annoying. They're kids, right? I have four kids. Like, yeah, they're annoying. They they mess up.They make mistakes. But through those mistakes, like, that's learning, right? That's growing up. Um,and uh, as their dad, just think how much you love them.I I can't think of a love that's greater than how I feel toward mychildren. Um, just think how much you love them. And, um,so it sounds like you're a Christian man and you believe in God.Um, why is it that for youum like you don't view God's the same God's love the same way as you love yourown children. Totally right. You might know it. You might knowit up here, right? But like there's something broken thatis like, "No, I got to prove myself. I got to be okay. I gotta like I gotta getmy wife to like me in order to be okay. I gotta You are perfect right now, Kevin, withwith your sexuality the way it is. Whatever it is, whatever your acting out is, behavior, whatever your you'reyou're you are accepted. You are loved. The grace of of Christ is thereavailable right now. Right. Right now. Um, and it it seemed it just feels likethere's always like, "Yeah, but yeah, but I got to like be good. Yeah, I got to like work the atonement for myself inorder to be loved by my wife or other people." And that yeah, but will keep youconstantly trying to to get there.And you you need to fall in the arms of a God that loves you and be held and know what that feeling feels like sothat in that moment with your wife when you're like, "Oh, I'm scared to death. Be honest." You can be honest and youcan stay steady and you can stay strong because you know already that you're loved.Do you understand what I'm saying? And this is the trauma work that needs to be done. there's there's traumathat's gone on and I don't know what it is that tells you that you're not okayand then you're showing up that way in your life. You're living in these faulty core beliefs and you're trying to getlove in these ways and it's it's actually creating the opposite.Right? I have a lot of um trauma with rejectionis a big theme in my interesting specifically rejection from men ummen in my family and peers that rejected me and that's a big themein my life. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.Those are the roots. Those are the roots of the issues that you're dealing with in your marriage today,right? Kevin, as I was saying all that and youyou think about that rejection, like what what comes up for you like emotionally? Like how how do you feel?Um I'm really sad.Um I'm sad for my young self. Um, I'm sad formy wife that I I feel very weak most of the time. Um,I don't feel like I'm the man that she thought she was marrying. Um,so it's uh, yeah, I I I want I wantI want this. Um, but it does feel like a battle is likeraging in me. Um, and so when I'm when I'm clearminded andcan focus, um, I I know where I want to go and who Iwant to be. Uh, but I don't always feeluh I don't always have clarity of mind. And I feel like this addiction reallyholds me captive to not being able to seethe future and to to see where I can be. And I I I do think thereum yeah, some of it stems from, you know, childhood abuse. Some of it is from justthis trauma of rejection throughout life. Um some of it's the way ourdynamic has been in our marriage um over the years andum how that's played out has been really toxic at times. Um,and so it just uh kind of puts me into hiding um out of self-p protection. Andyeah, I just I I I see myself as a little boy curled up in a corner like holding like fetal position kind ofthing. That's that's how I feel on the inside at times. um just out of like aself protection and I want to I want to live in the freedom of feeling open,honest, allow my wife to have safety and trust and I want to be able to trust myself. Iwant to be able to trust myself. I don't feel like I can trust myself most of the time. Mhm. Um and yeah, it's it's how to actuallyget to that place um of that that healthy that healthydynamic is I haven't been able to figure it out. Yeah.Kevin, uh could I ask you that that image, man, my heart is just likereally full of love for you right now. Um, first Kevin, like I I can hear thatI can hear the parts of your soul that have been tormented for so long. Um,I'm wondering that little boy that you just described that's curled up in a ball in the fetal position, likewhat's your way of being towards that little boy? How much time and energy and effort do you spend there?With him or as him? With him. I love that little boy. Umhe's very precious to me. Yeah. UmI try to um um I try to see him. I try to um be withhim. Um but I feel like in the throws oflife, uh he doesn't get cared for too well.um in the midst of caring for four children life.Is there is there a connection I don't know if this is true or not for you like withthat little boy. Is there a connection between the lack of honesty and authenticity in yourday-to-day living now and the lack of care for that little boy?Is the lack of honesty actually a form of curling up in the fetal position instead of creating the space for thatlittle boy to be seen and loved?Can you say that again? Brandon, you might have to help me on this one. Maybe I'm not making sense atall. I I I think we can simplify it to when you show up weak in your life with yourwife. Is that is that you curling up in that fetal position in in the corner oris that you being loved? And do do you see do you see what Tyler's saying here?No. When I feel that um that's like the that's like the shame feelingum is like the fetal position is being in that. And it's um it'sreally hard to come out of that with all the experiences of rejection.Kevin, of course you're going to that corner. Like of course.And um and and I think all three of us know thatyou are a powerful, lovable human who is not just going to get rejected. You knowthat in your head, but your heart and your soul is like, "Ah, I got to go."And so the the the only way to not live there, do you know do you know what theonly way to not live there is, Kevin?Uh come out of it. I don't know. You have to turn and face the beast umday in and day out, one step at a time, and start to realize. So, so the thepathway out of this shame is through courage. It's through vulnerability.Um, and you're so comfortable cowering in the corner, it's really scary. Andall these little examples that we gave about having boundaries with your wife and showing up honest and open, th thoseare the opportunities. Those are the most therapeutic things that you can do. The other thing that I would suggest iswhat Tyler was really getting at with you here is is having like like goingback and having compassion and feeling that little boy full of the love andthat's where the trauma work comes in the experential trauma work. So, so those two thingscombined where like that compassion, that love is given to you and that and that new perspectiveis given to you that you aren't those experiences combined with the here and nowopportunities to step into opposite action to that shame that the courageand you do that consistently and you'll look back and be like, "Oh, what do you know? I'm not the weakling.I'm not the guy that's just going to get rejected. Like because I've experienced something new now, but the only way thatI've experienced it is to stop protecting against it.Do you see? And and this is why the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek because it's that you have to stepinto that. And you'll you'll experience some rejection again. That that'll happen. It's part of it. But you'll alsoexperience um know knowing that you're lovable regardless.Right. So I think we're trying to cram in as much as we can with you, Kevin.Uh, I think uh we both like I think Tyler, we both feel who you really areand your power and um who you are as a man and and it it pains me like it it'sit it's painful to me to to to feel your pain with you. Um because there's justso much fear and shame there. And I know you can overcome it. I know you can getinto real recovery here. So, I I'll just end with this too and backto what I was saying just a little bit more and you can chew on this and maybe I'm wrong about it completely, but I'mstill feeling the conflict that you described earlier in the in the meeting with us today. That inner conflict thatyou're always battling with yourself. And I can't help but see that little boysomehow engaged in that very conflict. The part that says, "I want to hold on to my addiction.But the the part that also says, "But I really want to let it go." And to me, it's the little boy that's right in themiddle of that because the little boy that's curled up in shame in the corner had to find a way to cope with his life.And the best medicine he found was that addiction. So the more you fight and try to killthat addiction without attending to the little boy, the more the inner conflict,the inner struggle and and the more you attempt to find recovery through therigidity of being perfect. Like you think about this fixed mindset versusgrowth mindset. Be perfect. Don't mess up. Don't let anybody see anything. like you're going to keep acting out sidewaysuntil you address that that little boy can come along. He doesn't have to copein those ways anymore because he has somebody else who sees him, who knows him, who truly loves him.And I'll just end with this thought that the pathway to recoveryis a pathway, it's a pretty broken processoriented pathway to radicalself-acceptance. to complete wholeself-acceptance. Um, if if you don't approach your recoverywith that goal in mind and it stays rigid and compulsive, that conflict onthe inside is going to eat you alive. And I'm saying this to you, Kevin, and Iknow that there's a hundred other people listening to this right now that I hope it's settling in on that, that you'redoing your recovery wrong if you're trying to kill something that's attachedto that really young, tender part of yourself. Go attend to the young, tender part ofyourself and build some trust with that part of yourself.And then step into your power. And guess what? you won't need the acting out like you used to.I just want to say like we're out of time. Um but uh I' I don't know wherewhere your wife's at with all of this, but I'd I'd love to have a chance to chat with her. Um whether it's just heror whether it's both of you coming on, like I' I'd love that opportunity. Umand so I just want to invite her on. I'd love to talk to her. Um, and uh, I just want to thank you, Kevin,for being vulnerable, for coming on. Like Tyler said a few times, like there's so many you're you're not alonein your shame. It feels like you are in the in the throws of it, but um, there's so many men in your position and um, youcoming on really just is a courageous thing to do and um, and it helps others.So, really appreciate you. Um, if this was helpful to you, um, give a shout outto Kevin, leave a review, throw his name in there, thank him, and, uh, until nexttime, keep on keeping on.