I Have Experienced A Change Of Heart, But How Do I Make It Last?

Introduction

I've experienced a change of heart, but how do I make it last?What is going on you guys? Tyler, your wandering therapist, here today. Brandon is out again. He's still on vacation.And uh and so it's me as the host today, but bringing on a different brother. Uhmy my actual brother-in-law and business partner, and a lot of you guys have seen him before, um Chase. So, we'll begetting together with Chase and talking about this topic. But before I jump into that, I wanted to just throw a couple ofthings out there. Um, number one is we'd love to hear from you. Uh, if you'd liketo become a caller on the show, therapy brothers.org would be the way to go sign up and leavea question for us. You can type in a question or especially we would love tobe able to talk with you about whatever it is you're going through in your own journey, your own healing, your ownwholehearted pursuit. Um, any question is fine. We got some feedback that uh wedon't do a very good job with certain different kinds of populations and the truth is is that we don't um we we tendto have a lot of people from a lot of the same kinds of problem come join us. But we do have some expertise in otherareas that we would love to be able to discuss help with. And so if you don'tthink that we can help, then don't go leave reviews that we can't help withoutcoming on and asking us. So um come on and ask us. Let's have a discussion. And if we don't have the right answers, we'dlove to still have the discussion and look for the right answers with you. So any topics you could talk aboutparenting or I think the feedback we got was that we don't do very well with people who are single trying to workrecovery. The reason why is because nobody who's single will come on and talk with us. So come talk with us. Umcome talk with us. I I think we'd actually probably have something of value for you. Um but anyway, we uhwe're we're we're glad to have you with us. We love having our listeners. We love your feedback. Um, you can leavefeedback either at that website in asking a question or coming on the showor you can also leave feedback through the reviews if you would leave us a review anywhere where you're listeningto the show. Um, all right. Today we're going to talk a little bit about change.

Topic Setup – How to make a change of heart last.

Uh, we talk a little bit about lasting change. You know, most of us have experienced the kind of change thathappens in the head where you go to a seminar, you go to school. This is the way I got through all of my school. Thisis probably an indictment on me, but uh I'm really good at retaining logicalinformation. Um, and I can learn that information, but a lot of times translating thelogical information down into actually integrating it into my life and my heart is a whole different story. And that'swhere we believe actually lasting change happens. So, we're going to talk a little bit today about people sometimeswe get this question where they go and they have a pretty powerful emotional experience.And it's almost like it happens in reverse where the emotional change starts to shift, but then they worryabout being able to integrate that change into their lives in ways that are going to be positive moving forward andand you know, permanently. So, Chase, good to have you on the show today, man.It's good to be here. Uh, does anybody watching the video portion not get annoyed at how often you shake yourfreaking table? I know. I I was just I was like I don't Well, I don't know if we have that many people watching the video, but I willtry to keep my hands off of the desk the rest of the time. My hands are now going into my pockets, Chase.It's not a distraction for me at all. I think I need to like get like some kind of like anchors to take becauseI've got this like See, it's like this portable desk that you got me. Yeah, that's right. But every time I touch it, it shakes thescreen. So, um I'm I'm gonna have to like anchor this into my normal desk or something.Oh, man. Oh, sorry. Um so, one other quick aside. Uh what would be cool is ifwe had like a a roast of the Therapy Brothers. Uh sometimes you wantfeedback. you'd have like some kind of live stream where people can call in and speak theirmind for a second about how you guys show up.That actually would probably be a pretty fun episode. People could come and tee off on us. Just make sure it's a week that Brandon's in charge and I'm out oftown or something. Yeah, exactly. You're up in Alaska fishing.Oh man, that would actually be pretty fun to kind of do that sometimes.It really would. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean I' I've got a long list myself. I try not to take all the time,but um no, I'm just messing with but um soyou know, we're just coming off the heels of this retreat and I'm sure uh your listeners are so tired of hearingabout it by now, but um but it's uh it's kind of like a like an LDS missionarylike well on my mission. Okay, enough of that.Um but but really this there's some recency to it and then so it's and this

Retreat Highs – Emotional breakthroughs fade without structure.

last one that we did had almost like a particular fire about it. Um where therewas so much of that emotional shift that you were describing and then you know weit's like send everybody back home. Good luck to you. You know I wish wish you the best as you try and integrateeverything that you just learned and felt and your these newly formed beliefs. Um, and usually what we hear isthat people fall flat on their face, uh, you know, come Monday. And it's it'sthis this interesting process, this give and take. And I've heard about it, uh,one of the one of my favorite musicians, uh, Yoyo Ma. Um, do you know who thatis? Yes. Not like you do, but yes, I know who he is. Not like I do. And actually one one uh

Practice & Mastery – Lessons from Yo-Yo Ma; change takes repetition.

funny little story about YoYo Ma is that I used to think Yoyo Ma was a womanbecause it was Yoyo Ma and I was like Jason I didn't know. Um then I saw himperforming and I was like oh man it's making a lot more sense. Um,but he he is a master, a true master when it comes to playing the cello, liketop five in the world. Um, and one of thethings that he's talked about when it comes to integrating uh this skill set of his in developingmastery is that it takes time and it takes practiceand um you know so I could hear the cello and be like wow that did somethingto me. first time I ever heard it. I remember just this feeling of there is some depth and richness and it touchesmy soul in a way. And then I go touch a cello and I try doing the same thingthat he's doing and it is not going to sound quite right. You know, um it's going to sound perfect for where I'm at.But you know, the disparity between what I can do and what I know is possible,that's a big disparity. And and um I think sometimes we get discouraged and Isay I think we I know I get discouraged at times. Um and that's something thatit it takes practice and effort to to integrate some of these new beliefs. Um,so like what what have you seen is is people are coming back and and not even just with this most recent retreat, butyour experience of people having some kind of emotional breakthrough and being like, "Aha."But then they stumble and they trip and they're like, "What's the point?"Yeah, man. I It's I'm I'm glad we're we're talking about this because it seems to happen in a couple of differentways. Usually it feels like there's all of the rational like hey I learn theskills like I know I need to do my daily charge. I need to do mindfulness. I need to have a team. I need to be cultivating and I I'll start doing those things butI don't quite have the heart that fully like sees the vision yet. And then in inother ways once in a while and this is what happens at the retreat and this is why we're talking about it in that sense is sometimes you go and you have areally powerful call it spiritual or emotional experience but then there'snot the logistical tools to hold that shift in place and that's and that's kind of what we'retalking about now and then what ends up happening is you know like you say the catch a vision I remember this multipletimes in my life multiple times probably maybe hundreds at this point I've goneto some place and had an experience and after that experience or in the midst of it I feel something shift in me and thenI have this almost like vision come out like I'm going to go home and I'm going to do this and this and this and this ishow I'm going to live my life again and then like you said Monday morning rolls around and the alarm clock goes off andthe old habit loop just grabs a hold of you and now all of your now now it's almost its own form of additional painand suffering because I felt and knew something better.And it's that whole scripture, the spirit was willing but the flesh is weak, you know, like and and then Ishame myself for it. So then I like throw my hands up. I'm like, oh, all is lost. So I I go to have this powerfulexperience over this weekend. I go home to real life to having to go back to a job or school or whatever else it is togo back to helping to manage life with a marriage and a family and everything else. and my habit loop grabs a hold ofme and now there's this now the the powerful experience that I had is actually the thing that's like tauntingme and being like yeah but you still suck like you use you proof this is proof that you're just a failure becauseeverybody else had these amazing experiences andyou almost wish you wouldn't have had the experience because you don't want it to torment you that you should besomething different right and uh and so part of the work isactually letting that experience be a part of a process. Let it be a call upto continued change and practice rather than an indictment of how horrible youare. Amen. Um Yoyo Ma calls that processpunctuated equilibrium. Um I did a a master class just learningabout music theory uh with him and it was interesting him talking about howthere there's these points where we kind of go like this. We go up and down up and down along this this axis of ofwe're improving. we kind of have a failure improving a setback impro um butthen there's these moments where it seems like we have a jump like into the the next next level. We bump up maybeit's like what you're talking about with with the uh with the retreat. You have this moment of of elation or epiphanyand revelation and uh and then you're at this level and then you kind of jostlearound at that level for a little bit. Um, and that that seems to be how lifegoes a lot of the time is that it's it's never just well I learn and now this ismy level and I stay at this level and I continue moving up. It's always a a back and forth process. Um, so you know, oneof the books that has been really influential, this is one that you uh recommended to me. Um I I don't know may

Daily Practice – “Deep & Simple” reminder: belief + consistent action.

maybe you got it from uh um Fred Fred Rogers uhthat that that documentary. Um anyway, it's called Deep and Simple byBo Lozoff and it's it's he he's an interesting character. He he kind of heserved in prison systems to to help support kind of as in a pastoral sense.Um an interfaith pastor uh is how I'd qualify him. But there's a this firstchapter I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I do want to read a couple of things out of it that I think are reallyrelevant and impactful. Um and the first one is just talking about practice saysa belief or an attitude is a great first step but we must follow it with regularpractice. We must remind ourselves of what we believe in. We must find ourfind ways to deepen and strengthen those beliefs. We must see how they hold upunder pressure. uh we must make spiritual practice partof our ordinary life experiences throughout each day. Um and I meanthat's hitting on exactly what you were saying earlier. It's like you can go and have forged this whole new identity, buthow does how does it perform like once you're back into real life? like it'sit's great to step away and kind of be able to breathe and and have these umbreakthroughs, but if you can't become something different in day-to-dayliving, then how much of a breakthrough really really was it? Um and that's that's one of the struggles that I Iexperience all the time. So, um I I love the the the idea of beingreminded of our own beliefs though and and and our values like how what's beenyour experience with with u remaining true to your values like how do you howdo you do that on a daily day-to-day basis? Yeah, I I really love what you sharedfrom the book there uh Chase. It actually kind of lines itself up really well with sort of how we developed thereclaim your heart platform and particularly the healing journey that's inside that platform. The whole firstsection of that course is geared towards this idea of what you were just describing as the methods of practice.

Four Core Practices – Daily charge, boundaries, team support, mindfulness.

Um you know we talk about sort of the basics of recovering your heart fromshame, trauma, betrayal, addiction, whatever else. Um really it's about shame and trauma. The practices in thefirst section there's really four main cornerstones that we teach and then that we reinforced to be committed to overand over and over and over and over again. Not to be perfect but to be in practice, right? And those things areone building and cultivating the right heart which comes through your daily charge. two, eliminating the things thatare actually distractions and taking your time and energy that aren't effect effective for you. That's your lines ofdefense. And then you have the building of your team, which is making sure you always have a few people in your innercircle that know exactly what you're working on to to both provide empathy and accountability. And then the fourthpart of that is mindfulness practice. So learning to learning to become moreconscious about the way that you're choosing to live your life and what you're producingin your life. And then inside of that mindfulness, the other tool that we teach that I think needs constantrepetition is self-compassion. Right? And so if I'm if I'm cultivatingthose things, and we could go into each one of those, those could be their own episode, but if I'm living a life whereI am committed to cultivating, that's different than being perfect atBut if I'm committed to cultivating those things, that's where some of that stuff in that book you're talking about, those spiritual practices come in. I amnow engaged in the kinds of things that strengthen my value system. Theystrengthen who I am. They let me become more aware of who I am and then I can go and test those things in the furnace ofwhat life has to offer me. Right now, where we mess up is is that we practicethose for like two weeks like every New Year's and then we fail and then wethink we're a failure and then we stop the practice. And it's the actual returning to the practice that is partof the solution. It's it's uh you know, we talked about this in one of our men'sgroups last week, but the way that I was taught is is that we learn something usually through our heads first and

Awkward Application – From clumsy effort → skill → habit → character.

something clicks and we're like, "Oh yeah, I want to do that or change that or change that and then we make a new commitment and then we step into what'scalled awkward application." And that's where the new changes that we're tryingto implement, it's like it's like you trying to play the cello in chase, right? like is it itwould be like me trying to play any musical instrument. Like you hear the beautiful cello music and then you getyour hands on a cello and you like you think you're cool if you can tap it and make it like keep a beat that like isthat hollow sounding thump because you just don't know what else to do. Most most of us give up at that point. Butthe person who goes through the awkward application and learns a few chords and then learns a melody and then learns toplay and then they start to become proficient. It goes from awkward application to a skill acquisition andfrom a skill acquisition to a habit and of course the habit eventually starts to become part of what we feel like is ourcharacter, right? So instead of failing, you know, there's a lyric in a song thatI really like called Fear by Blue October. The lyric says, "I used to fall, now I get back up." It's like whenI can start to shift my focus to of course I'm going to fall and fail andI'm going to get back up and I'm going to recommmit and I'm going to keep going and I'm going to practicebecause practice, you know, they always say practice makes perfect and then people say perfect practice makesperfect. But what I would say is is that practice regardless of of anything else bringsgrowth. Um, and so I don't I don't know if I'm evenspeaking to what your original Oh, you're you're you know, right in a similar vein of of thought. Um, the Ialso have a song that came to mind. Uh, it's called Practice Makes Progress. Um,and I know I've shared this one with you in the past, but I think that you posted that to our actual platform on Reclaim Your Heart.I did. I love that song. It's so dang good. But one of the lines in it is uhpractice makes progress. I let go of the outcomes and I stay focused on the

Progress, Not Perfection – Resilience through repeated practice.

process. And that seems to be where I have the the hardest uh time is when I get sofixated on what I want out of it. Like I want it to be perfect. I don't want tomess this up again. Like again, I don't want to mess it up again. Um I've learned everything I need to know. Now,I'm just gonna go do it and I'm gonna get it right the first time. Here we go. Um, like that. That's That's uhproblematic problematic thinking. Um, and we can get in our own way. Um,something else you were you were mentioning just about like those those five different areas. Um,you know, the the mindfulness, the team building, the self-compassion, dailies, bottom lines or lines of defense. Umeach of those like without the awareness piece is going to be a struggle. It'sgoing to be cumbersome. Um like one of the things that mindfulness does isteaches you how to be more aware ofright now like what's going on right now in this exact moment. Um,I know for uh for me for example, like I I'm I have some awareness um thatthere's some tension in my body. Like this is going out to people beyond justthe two of us. It's not just a regular conversation. like that's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around, but it'salso there's some fear of like I don't want to misspeak and I don't want to look like a totally bum bumbling fool orand I want to provide some some value and you know there there's all of these things going on but I whenever there'san added level of what seems important to me or aligns up with my valuesI I feel greater tension in my body to get it right. like I just want to get itright. Um I also noticed that uh my mybreathing patterns they kind of suck whenever I feel this kind of tension.Takes me a second to finally find a good rhythm and remind myself, hey, justbreathe. Just breathe. Keep breathing. It's okay. Take some of that needlessburden off. Lower some of those expectations. Um, and what's so cool about practice isthat a year ago, I probably didn't have that level of awareness. And a year fromnow, I'm probably going to have, if I keep this up, an even greater awareness.Um, and not just the awareness piece, but what you're talking about is application of tools, using yourawareness, like knowing when to use the hammer, knowing when to use the scalpel,knowing when to pick up the phone and call somebody. Um, and each of thosethings, knowing when to just do sit and do some deep breaths, that that by itselfis such a a gift and a turning point when it comes to integrating these thesenew behaviors, right? Yeah. I love it. I mean, even just you doing that practice here right now as wespeak, right? that you're here you are talking about consciousness by becomingconscious of your current process and and then demonstrating what that allowsyou to do that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to do in the past right that's and and I think you know acouple of thoughts here to go along with this in terms of like how to cultivate it one is this very principle here whichis I think there's some merit sometimes to you know we as we as human beings, wetend to really slant towards everything that's broken most of the time. Umbecause that's kind of how we've survived in our lives. Like that's how we've, you know, that's how we've developed as a species is anynegativity, you know, keeps us safe in some ways. And so we kind of have turned that into our own self-criticism too insome ways, which is really interesting. But I think what you just did there isis an actual skill that can be very beneficial. I call it the snapshot approach which isyou know if I if I look let's just say right now across my own personal journey of say recovery if I measure myself

Snapshot Growth – Measure over years, not days.

yesterday versus today the change is going to be so small thatI might be discouraged by it. In fact, it might even be like the stockmarket where I could actually have a dip and I'm actually worse today than I was yesterday, right? Like that that couldentirely be possible. Um, that's hopefully not the goal. But if I were to take snapshots and say, okay, D-Dayhappened for me, which is where I would consider really the shock to my system that reallykicked off real recovery. That was almost two decades ago sometime. I don't remember the exact date. If I were to goa year ago, three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, interms of where my current life is at in terms of being congruent with the manthat I want to be versus where I was then, that bell curve of difference ismassive. And that's actually encouraging because I can now see the trend upward. And nowall of a sudden it's like you you know who Simon Synynic is. He uses the analogy of the brushing of the teeth.You know he's like what happens when you brush your teeth today? Pretty much nothing. Likealmost almost nothing happened when you brushed your teeth today. Um because youbrush your teeth every day and the brushing of the teeth every day is what actually keeps the good dental hygienegoing. But you're doing something that actually in the grand scheme of things is not massive except that it producesmassive results over time. And so, so I'd encourage anyone listening, ifyou're looking at changes you're trying to make in your life, if you're committed and you're committed to aprocess, if you look at the snapshots over time, that'll be much more encouraging than just the snapshot oftoday. Um, and then we had a comment here just in the live chat here while we wererecording. I think this is actually really good of how to hold on to it. Um, talking about the changeemotionally. I agree. I find sharing this is I think Black Rose 13. I agree. I find sharing the experiences help to

Sharing & Accountability – Journaling and trusted people reinforce change.

keep them alive in my heart. And I I think there's merit to actuallysharing maybe in multiple ways. is one would be in your own journal, your own personal use, but then also finding theright people to share those changes with. Just by nature of sharing them out loud, they reinforce into your ownsystem and they naturally become a form of accountability because you justoutwardly spoke some of the things that you're working on. And so I think that was a greatsuggestion. Thank you, Black Rose. Hey, that's that's the Undertaker. Shoutout to that guy. Oh, that's the Undertaker. Yeah, that's Oh, all right. Undertaker, it's good tohave you with us. Yeah, thank appreciate the comment. Yeah,I did not know that was his call name. Yeah, he needs to update it.Now, now we have like a whole bunch of people wondering who the Undertaker is, and it's not the It's not the wrestling guy.He's way better than that guy. Yeah. Um I real quick I wanted to uh kind ofin that same vein um of how how do you hold on to it? Uh I was going to ask youabout about mantra. Um early on in youruh practice with your therapy practice here, um didn't you have some kind ofmantra that that you would apply regularly uh when you were especially when youwere getting kicked around and beaten throughout the day and like what do you do do you remember what that was? I I'myou might have to remind me if it's not the one you're thinking of, but this is uh this is this was tied to for me to

Mantras & Self-Compassion – Shame antidote (bean-in-sock story).

like self-compassion, the practice of self-compassion. Like I always had this and I don't know if anyone will relateto this, but you can all pick your own favorite core belief that beats you up and and pick your own, but mine wasTyler, you're a failure, right? And I decided that every time I felt my senseof failure, which was my shame, I'd feel it in my chest. I'd feel it in my face. I'd feel it flush and uh and and thenI'd feel my body want to close in on itself and then I'd be like, "Tyler, you suck at this or oh man, your clients missed out on that or you should havesaid this or you failed them this way or you did like the the brain would kick on." I decided every time I felt myshame that I was going to practice the self-compassion. And so I would actually take my hand, put it over my heart, andfeel the warmth of my hand go into my heart. And then I would say, "Tyler, the truth is that you're a work inprogress. You're a force for good. God is designing you to be exactly who you're supposed to be in this moment,and you don't have to be a finished product today. Uh, and then I I say this to my clients all the time, but I lovethe idea that I get to grow until I die. Um, and I remember doing that likealmost probably 20, 30, maybe sometimes 100 times a day. The shame was so rampant and it felt so stupid.Like the practice, we're talking about practice. That practice, I mean, even saying it out loud, I know there'speople that are like, "Oh, dude, like cheesy. That's so stupid." Or do you remember when we did uhI know what you're about to say. You What am I going to talk about? You're going to talk about the bean in the sock.That's right. Like we we did the uh we did the UKAP presentation. So, we presented at the Utah Coalition AgainstPornography. I was the speaker and you were the guy who made me look good with my presentation. That was like back inlike 2017. And we were like a little unorthodox in our presentation. And Ithink I remember a slide that actually shows you a handdrawn sock like a like acalf high sock like the ones I wear with a little bean inside of it. And uhand the exercise that we we we passed out like beans to every singleperson at the presentation. The beans. It was like 500 people. We made them all take a bean.And then we talked about like the the possibilities of that seed, that beinglike what what could it possibly become, you know? And ultimately it could become its own being that then producedhundreds of other beings in the future. could it was it's it's its possibilities were limitless. Right? So, we're talkingabout all this and then we told everybody then we told everybody to take the beanthat we'd given them and put it in their sock. And every time that they got annoyed that that bean was there like ontheir foot or in their ankle or whatever and it was like rubbing that like causing a like a blister or something,every time you notice the bean to practice the mantra.So So you're practicing that mantra like a hundred times a day because every time you're like, "Oh, what? Why did I putthat bean in my sock?" Like, "Oh, the truth is is that I have limitless potential, you know, like a hand over myheart. I'm going to practice that. And you know, like that sounds so cheesy,but you know what, Chase? Like that practice not only done logistically,but done eventually logistically paired up with hope, eventually paired up with willingness,eventually paired up with desire, which is that emotional shift. Guess what happens when you look in the mirrorafter a while? do. When I look in the mirror, I more often see a work in progress and a forcefor good rather than a schmuck who fails everybody. The belief system itself not onlychanged rationally, but it changed emotionally. And it came throughcheesy practice. Yeah. Cheesy practice of being in the sock.I love that so much. I mean, I actually uh you know, I I've got my own different practices, but that one uh I have Ihaven't done since then. I probably need to throw a bean in my sock and see if Ican get that thing to germinate.If you think about it, it's hot enough. It's got Yeah. It's got enough heat and moisture. Yeah.So, the only thing it probably needs is a little red light therapy. And you're probably good. Sunlight.That's great. Um, one thing about your story too that I had this kind of realization as you were sharing it, um,

Growth Mindset – Embrace failure as part of practice.

that you you started this therapy practice here, uh, in Logan and it wasthe perfect ground for cultivating that kind of shame resiliencyfor you yourself. But this place is called a practice. Like, how cool isthat? It's called a practice and not not a a therapy perfect or or uh any anyother thing. It's called a practice and and it's the the grounds to to be ableto to try a different way of thinking, try a different belief system, um to toapply some of these things. And so that I think that there's something that's kind of cool and beautiful about that.That's that's something that I really love about what you've brought to like what we do at our practice iswe have tried some we have tried some really interesting things to see to tosee if they would be helpful to people like go to a a national conference andtell people to put a bean in their sock like um we've we've done a lot of experiential things here at ourpractice. Some of them have been more beneficial for people than others. But the only way that you find what's goingto work is the willingness to step in and practice knowing that some of those things are going to fail.Mhm. Right. And that's that's something that I've actually really always appreciated about having you be an influence in mylife personally is is I sometimes feel like I'm more of the brakes and you're the gas pedal. Um but ubetter or worse. Yeah. But but you're but you're willing to go step in and be like, "Hey, let's try this thing." And the energy that youapproach that with is actually more of like a and if we fall flat on our face, fine. We'll learn. Like that's that'swhat we're going to do is we're going to learn until we get it right. and that approach to life. I mean, you guys thinkabout this who are listening, like if you relate to me, I'm like the fixed mindset guy that needs to have it perfect in order to go do it versussomebody who's got the growth mindset which says, "I don't have no clue what I'm doing, but I'm going to do this andthen I'm going to learn and then I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this." You'll notice an instant difference inthe in the rate of progress when it's approached from that practice mindset.You know, something else we're we're kind of talking about on a a deeper noteis faith. Like the reason you practice something is because you believe thatthere's even a possibility that you could become that thing. Um that to meis so beautiful and that and what you were just uh hitting on. Um there'sanother quote from deep and simple. Um this is the chapter when everything goes wrong. He's talking about faith. He saysfaith is a profound acceptance of life's ultimate goodness no matter what

Faith & Surrender – Trusting the process, responding with values.

happens. Uh that every genuine spiritual path hasmore to do with our response to things going wrong than with our problems beingmagically corrected. It's like that's that's exactly what practice is. It's ademonstration of faith and courage. um leaning in every time you feel like giving upunder pressure. It's it's what you said earlier about from the other quote of testing those new beliefs against thepressure that life brings basically and and that's where that's where thepractice before the pressure is important so that when the pressure does come we see how it actually does hold upyeah that's that's beautiful and that idea of faith I think there's an element if you lookat it from like recovery terms I think faith goes a lot with otherprincipal terms that we use like surrender and acceptance, right? Like that that life is beautifuland perfect as it is. Like have have that sit on you for aminute. Like anyone listening like look at all of your challenges. Faith wouldbe an acceptance and surrender to what is rather than what should or shouldn'tor could or couldn't be. and then making your choices based off of your valuesinside of what is like whoa there's some implicationthere's a ton of potential learning and growth therereally is um I you know as you weresaying that uh you know I call you Pat uh and it's a special name for for me tocall you that. Um I I felt some stirrings and um I just want to vocalizethis that um might take me a second to to get the getthe vocal box unlocked a little bit, but um I felt so much um trustfrom from you. Uh you've been in my life in a pretty tremendous way for a longtime. Uh since I was, I like saying, a little chubby 10-year-old boy. Um you'vebeen, you know, married to my oldest sister. And but you've been more moreand more uh significant in my life all the time as a as abrother and as a mentor. Um and I feel the same uh type of love and connectionfor Brandon. Um, I've loved watching the two of you grow and you know, this ispretty personal, uh, to be able to witness the two of you doing this thing together and all the randomconversations, this podcast, and every every other thing that you guys have done. But I I wanted to just say that Ifeel a tremendous amount of trust from the two of you. And what that does to mewhen it comes to my own willingness to practice is that I try harder like andnot because I I want to appease you guys or anything, but I just feel love and faith in me and that makes that makesthis process so much more doable, beautiful, supported. Um, and the thethe thread of truth that I want to share with anybody that's listening isget some people in your corner. Like if you don't have that,find them. Like you want to you want to integrate some

Find Your People – Community provides empathy + accountability.

of beliefs, you want to make these changes to the way that it's possible. likeand not just possible but just fun. Like I felt like I've had so much fun in thisjourney having brothers. Um I've also uh felt like in my deepest despair that Iwasn't alone. um all the times thatI um tripped up, mess up, I have somebodythat's there that says, "Hey, you can do this and it's okay." Um ifyou don't have somebody that's doing that or that you're doing that for, go find your people. Like it's that's worthit by by itself. if you disregarded everything else that uh we talked about today, but you you went and found yourpeople that could help you practice, like that would be life-changing. I think that's its own really greatsuggestion, Chase. And I just want you to know that the feelings are mutual. What you spoke about trust, I thinkapplies not just to other people, but to that continued wrestle with a higher power, something someone bigger thanourselves too of being able to put trust into something bigger than ourselves. When you have the support of the wrestlewith something bigger or someone bigger of God, and then you have the team tohelp push you into that unknown place, that really is where life isrich. It's vibrant. It's full. It's colorful. And you know, it's so it'sfunny that you bring this up, Chase. Like, you know, we we've known each other for as long as I've been married to your sister, right? You won'tremember this. I have told you this before, but I remember this clear as day. The very first time I met you, I wewent out to Georgia to to meet you where you guys were living and um your papa wwas there. Came, your grandma and your papa came and they were driving around. I think it was like a turquoise bluevan, like big Astro van. Oh, yeah. Massive Astro van. And uh and he's like the mostinteresting character. Anyway, but but anyway, I'm sitting there and I'm just kind of barely starting to get to know you and you are exactly right. You werea little like just a little chubby face like probably how old you guys had to belike 11. Yeah, somewhere in there. Yeah, you had to be like 11. I'm sitting next to you. We're driving somewhere with like your papa driving like nobody'sbusiness in a in this van. I'm We're all wondering if somebody's going to kill us because he's like such a bad driver.Slow as balls. Slow. Just terrible. Like Yeah. like so. And I look I look over I'm sitting nextto you and you're looking you're gazing out the window with these fat little cheeks and this like pensive look on your faceand then I'm like what's going on? And he's like and then you turn to me like and you kind of turn to me like stillwith this kind of pensive look. You're like I just wonder how I can do the best goodin the world. Like I just wonder I just wonder what I coulddo to do the the most good in the world. this little like 11-year-old fat-faced kid and uh and now here we now here weare like you know a quarter of a century later and on the on the regular we sitdown together in the office and I still see that little kid like are we doing the best we can in theworld like hey full disclosure I might have been thinking about Mariah Care's buttI I do know that at that point in time you love Mariah Carey I did I did. Yes.But I don't think that's what that's not the look that I saw in your face in that moment. So, umanyway, man, that I think that's been one of the beautiful things is that we've got enough time under the bridge with each other now and I know that youcall me Pat for a reason with the name and you have your own name called named Sunrise and you've shared some of thatstory, but there's more to it as well. to to your point, part of where thosenames have been derived has been through the the shared experience with your brothers,with your team, where you start to actually uncover and unfold the truthabout who you really are in God's eyes instead of living the lie anymore. Andwhen you have supportive people who will in essence because of the way that theysupport you and love you and hold you accountable, they invite you into the space of manifesting the truth of whoyou are, upping your game, engaging in the practice, going back after you fail. You know, I love it. Ilove it when guys come to group, you know, and they've gone and done something and they come back and it'snot perfect. And it's like, whoa, that one kind of like blew up in my face. It's like, hallelujah. Like, way to go,man. I'm so glad you're in the game. Like, let's let's learn from this. Like, how do we learn from this?Right. And um man once when you adopt that way of living and then you put the right pieces in place with the team andwith the wrestle with higher power uh those practices kind of take on adifferent meaning than just the checklist you're supposed to do to not act out and uh and then life gets life lifeopens up its possibilities. So amen to that. I was just thinking aboutyou know my own wife. She's uh Chelsea's amazing. And part of what makes heramazing is that she has had a a a groupof women, a sisterhood of women that um she's cultivated these relationships.And it's it's done exactly what you've said, just that that balance of somebodywho can empathize with you and say, "Hey, I see the pain that you're in. I'mso sorry for this pain." and maybe that same person or somebody else saying,"Hey, get your together." Like, come on. You don't have to wallow around in that anymore.Yeah. You don't have to like there's a different way forward. And that if you can find, you know,people that provide that level of balance and support and you can be vulnerable with them and feel safe andheld like, oh man, magic. Just pure magic. Yeah,it's it's awesome. You know, it's happening even right now. We got another comment from Spoons here. says, "I feellucky to be able to see this conversation." You know, Spoons is one of the guys that's on both of our teams, you know,and hopefully he feels the support the way we feel it from him. And um, man, itgives you permission to go into an otherwise really scary world and experience your failures in a totallydifferent way. And uh, and man, how lucky. How lucky. Think about thinkabout if you were raised by a parent who pushed you into a place that was a little bit over your head and then afteryou failed was celebrating with you the growth that you're going to have. How many people have that in their life doyou think? Not many. Yeah. Not many.Not many. And so we get a whole bunch of people running around avoiding the placewhere there would be the most optimal growth because they can't stand the thought of failing because if they fail, they're going to be criticized orthey're going to be let down or they're going to be alone or they're going to be a failure or nobody's going to want to be with them. And they rob themselvesof the arena that they've been given to have the best life possiblethrough the failures, through the practice.So anyway, Chase Sunrise, thank you.Thanks for coming on today and having this discussion. Any last thoughts that you want to add? Um,well, one one uh shameless plug is that I I do a mindfulness practice uh everyThursday on our platform. uh community colleges online and uh you know withthat like I'm I am so much more a student way before I am a teacher um inin this domain in particular but I love it and it has learning how to practiceuh individually and then share it with others or practicing stillness togetherthat's something that is significant if you don't have a case to do that then please come join us sometime. Umthat's through reclaimyouheart.org. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Umand then the the last thing is like timewise uh II had it in my heart at the very beginning to maybe share a prayer. Um,and I know this is random, uh, but, um,I think part of where this is stemming from is a desire to encourage people,um, who feel likeum, who feel like giving up. So, um, would that be all right if I offer a quick prayer?Go for it. That'd be great. Yeah. Um, before we jump into the prayer, uh, if you're listening to this,

Guided Prayer – Gratitude, grace, and courage for the journey.

um, if you could kind of slow down if you're in a an environment where you're able to do that, um, and just take afew, uh, deep breaths. No particular pattern or rhythm, butjust take a few deep breaths before we jump into a prayer.And I'd invite you to open up your heart a little bit in whatever way, however you interpret that, and to softenand open up.Dear God, umwe are grateful. We're grateful to exist.Grateful to breathe. Grateful forour feelings and emotions, even the painful ones.We're grateful for our depth,our discernment. In particularly, we are grateful forcontrast.We ask for guidance at this time. We ask for strength. We ask for love.We ask for self-compassion in places wherewe are so quick to shut ourselves down.We ask for grace in this process,knowing that we're imperfect, knowing that we're going to fail and mess up andscrew up in abundance. But we ask for grace.Please help us to overcometo get up.Please help us remember.Please help us remember.Remember who we are. remember our purpose, our identity, our personal calling. Please help us tohear and to respond. Please bless all those that arestruggling with their own faith, with this wrestle, their faith in theirown abilities. Please bless them. Please help us to feel feel your lovein the name of Christ. Amen. Amen.Thank you, Chase. Thank you for being on here and for bringing your just genuiness and heart

Closing

that you bring to just the way you approach life. Um, thank you to our listeners who arehere with us and who are in whatever struggles you are in know that at leastin spirit you are not alone and um that that there are people even totalstrangers who would relate to whatever you're struggling with and who want the very best for you and hopefully you'reable to will that into the lives of other people as well. So if this is meaningful or beneficial, please feelfree to share it with other people. And until next time, you guys, keep onkeeping on.