If We Want To Heal Our Marriage, What Ought We To Do?

If we want to heal the marriage, what ought we to do?Brandon, good to be with you this morning, man. Hey, it's Hey, it's alwaysgood to be with you.We were talking to our guest today preparing me for the show and she mentioned my hair. Um, we have like ourtopics, right? Yeah. Yes. And I just wanted to I wanted to shift from my hair and talk about your teethagain. Well, that's one of the topics, too. So, we talk about your hair, my teeth, and cousin Bigs. Those are like the threethings that get the most run here. Yeah. We We need another one with like we we tell the occasionalchildhood story that actually a lot of our audience likes to hear because I guess our childhood probably wasn't asnormal as we thought it was. Yeah. We talk about the the food that we ate.Yeah. You know what? Yeah. I just got the one Brandon like for for everyone who's on that. I'm not on it atall, but you've been sending out those like Sora those AI things where you like type in put this character here and thischaracter here and make a video of this. And you you just did one that was supposed to be reenactment of dad makingtomato gravy. We've talked about tomato gravy before. Yeah. But but the AI was actually prettyaccurate. Yeah. I wish you would have read the thing because it said it said we're alleating tomato gravy and we're all like dry heaving and gagging except for ourbrother Tyler who takes a bite and says oh dad that's so goodkissing up just hey always trying to perform. Yes. Oh that that's so yummy.That was hor that was horrible. I'll come out now. I'm living a life of integrity. That was horrible. Oh okay. Okay. Yes, it was. That washorrible. See, we we went we hit all the topics right there. There we go. We did it.All right. Well, we're going to jump over. We got another review. We love you guys' reviews. We appreciate them. Um,this one is was put on the Apple podcast. It says, "A bold pod. I lovethe live call-ins and how Ron reels so many conversations are. Hearing how others are applying their own applyingtheir own healing and recovery with live feedback and help from two dudes who are focused on getting to the root of thingshas been really helpful in my personal life. I don't agree 100% with everything they say, but the format gets methinking in new ways that have come to be very insightful and helpful. Thanks for all the work you do.We love that. We love that you don't agree with us on everything, too. and that you're still here finding value. That's part of how we learn and growtogether. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to out of your day to come and leave us that that review.We appreciate it. Tyler, you know what I just realized? Like this episode quite possibly or thelast episode is 500. Like we we hit 500 episodes. We shouldhave been celebrating in some way. That's crazy. Yeah, that's amazing. A lot of And of course, they don't agreewith everything we say. We set we've said a lot of stuff on fire. That's a lot of people that we've talked to, Brandon.Crazy. Pretty pretty awesome. That's like almost two years of podcasting like every day.That's insane. 500 episodes. That's really cool, man. That's awesome. So, congratulations. Um,well, to celebrate our 500 500th episode, we got a great guest. So,Kristen, welcome to the show. Thank you. The pressure is on.Um, so Kristen actually took my invite. We talked to her husband Kevin a fewweeks back and um and at the very end I said I would love to have your wife come on andvoila, here she is. Um, so I'm so glad you heeded the call and you're healhere. Um, if you could just give us a little bit of of your perspective,what's going on with you and uh, we'll go from there. Brandon, just before we do that, just for reference for ourlisteners, it's episode 497. How much information is two information is the one where her husband was on. So that'swhat you can cross reference if you'd like to. Yeah. Yeah. I I like to talk to myselfsometimes. I don't know if that's weird. My son said to me the other day, "Mom, are you talking to yourself again?" I was like, "Yeah." And I think I wasprepping mentally to like talk to you guys. And I was like, I don't know how to give I said I want to give acondensed version with appropriate context because my life is a weird series of unfortunate events it feelslike. But it all connects to what happens in our marriage because what we've learned is we both come to thetable with personal trauma and childhood experiences and expectations that thenaffect the way we relate together. So, uh, yeah, my husband and I have beenmarried. It'll be 15 years this year. We met in college. We were friends first for a while. And, um,when to just talk about the relational part of things, the context I'm coming from is,uh, I have some like a weird series of traumatic episodes that happened. And Iwould call them like three separate like lifethreatening circumstances that happened over the course of my life. One happened when I was a toddler. Iaccidentally overdosed on medication that my dad was taking and my parents found me. Oh wow.And um forced me to vomit repeatedly. I got taken to the hospital and because mybaby brother was only a couple weeks old, apparently neither of them were able to stay with me at the hospital andso I was abandoned. And uh subsequently, you know, years later in therapy, I'mlike, I have a true phobia of vomiting to the point where I I focus every dayon how do I avoid this from happening? And then of course I have children and um anyway she's like I think that could have connected to childhood experience.We should probably go back and EMDR that. But I didn't know. I just kind of assumed I was uh messed up permanentlyfrom my earliest memory on because of being afraid of something that everyone else was like get over it. Thenin college, I was in a head-on car accident um that I stayed conscious forand I was driving to work at a summer camp and uh it was one of those circumstances where so much traumahappened to my body they thought they might have to amputate my leg or my foot rather and that was like a differentkind of life-threatening circumstance. And then two years later, I was walking to a Greek class at my very smallChristian college at 9 in the morning and was followed and robbed at gunpoint by someone who held me hostageand told me he was probably going to kill me. And it was very odd. I have to explain this for context becauseI have a messed up series of traumas that create series of triggers for methat have nothing to do with my marriage. But then we add marriage into that. So I am a cocktail of triggers andtrauma that makes just normal relating to other people very difficult for meand then so much more so in a marriage where there is um addiction and betrayal trauma becausethe core belief that comes along with me through all these traumas is um you are always going to be alone and no one'sgoing to be able to help you or comfort you through these traumatic experiences. And um and also I just am extremelytriggered by fear as an emotion. And I think it's because all of these separate events I was alone and I was afraid andI was not given comfort. I was not given explanation and I had to figure it out by myself with no help.So then I have this relationship with Kevin. We were friends at college. Hevisited me at the hospital when I was in the car accident. We um you know we werefriends. He It's sort of like an interesting story. It feels kind of like a It would be a great saga for somebizarre twisted romance novel if it turned out well that like he is not my type at all. Like he wasnot my type. But the moment we met it was one of those I joke it was like one of those like the lights came down and Iwas like this person's really important but I don't know why yet. Mhm. And um it felt like the world kind ofshifted a little bit and um we were friends and I was the responsible I'mI'm an oldest child. I'm an oldest of four responsible oldest child. I you know I'm getting my I'm getting twomajors. I'm a 4.0 student. I go back to my dorm room and I do my three hours of homework per credit hour because that'swho I am. And my husband's the youngest of four and he's like, "Boo, that's boring. Come out and play." and I was really drawn tothat, you know, because I'm very responsible and very serious and so that opposites attract thing. Um, so Iactually became very interested in him and he was not interested in me. But atone point along the way, he sort of looked at me, he was like, I think we could date. And I was excited. I was all for it. And within about one day ofhaving that conversation, he wouldn't talk to me, look at me, communicate to me. And I was like, oh, this isn't kind of what I thought would happen afterlike, hey, I think and we dated for a short time. Uh we broke up. After we broke up as when Iwas robbed at gunpoint and something about that circumstance I think changed his perspective on me because I think meand all all of our friends cuz we're all friends together. Um it was kind of a hard like a hard thing for all of us tonavigate because it kind of felt scary for everyone and I think he kind of started like seeing like I could havelost you and maybe that was a wrong idea. So, we started dating againand we dated for several months, but it was very unhealthy. And I've I've since we've since learnedattachment theory, and I'm a classic anxious attachment, and he's a classic avoidant. And so, we played cat andmouse a lot, and it was very dysfunctional. And then finally one day,uh, he sat me down. I remember where we were. We were side by side in the car,parked in front of his apartment, and he's like, "I have to tell you something." He was like, "Okay." and hekind of went in to share his story. Um, he was explaining a porn addiction. Hewas explaining childhood trauma. He was explaining a lot of the shame associated with that. And for the first time in ourentire knowing each other, I finally felt, "Aha, everything makes sense. Itotally understand what's going on. Um, I understand why this would happen." And I actually told him last week, I thinkthat was the first time he really saw you, like all of you. And I remember stepping away from that conversationthinking cuz he sort of said in that conversation like I would understand if you don'twant to continue a relationship with me. I think am I delayed in here? Sorry. No, you're good. You're good.Okay. Um I think on my end it's delayed. And I sort of was like I need to think about this because at this point we'reyoung adults. We're looking toward like if we're dating, are we going to get married? And I'm a prolific journaler.So, I have records of like my processing of like what I was going through. And Ikind of walked away saying like I he's my best friend and I really like him andyeah, this means life is going to be messy, but like I'm cool with it. Like I'm cool to see what God will do with this.And so I kind of came back and I told him I was like, I like acceptthis. Like I accept the relationship. I don't this doesn't scare me about you. I think it's confusing. we're going to have to figure it out, but let's try.And within a month, we were engaged. And um I think Kevin mentioned in hispodcast, we kind of had this assumption marriage was going to fix things and it didn't,you know, and so it's interesting though because I think the discoveries and theaddiction and all that came up really early in our relationship. And it occurred to me yesterday that I havenever really been in relationship with my husband without betrayal trauma being a part of it. Um because I was aware thewhole time. And so that insecurity and that kind of anxiousness and lack ofsafety was has always been a part of our marriage. And I don't know any different. UmI don't like it. And I I started having panic attacks um as a young marriedwoman. And I went to a I don't recommend this. It was f I think it's fine forsome people, but I went to a counseling group and I couldn't afford the good counselors. So, I did the the counselorsand training and I got some unhelpful advice and uh you know, it wasn't until 2019 Iwas having panic attacks. Um my parents referred me and helped pay for me to see a therapist. She was doing intake withme and I was like, I'm here because I have a phobia. I'm I have two children at this time. I'm struggling tofunction. I have a lot of trauma in my history. And she's like, "Okay, well, let's talk through those things. Let's talk about your marriage." I was like,"Well, this is the story of my relationship and this is what's going on." And like, you know, as it would be,she was a seesat. And I didn't know that at the time or what it meant. Um, I just was there cuz I was like, I'm not copingwith life. And she sort of said, um, you are traumatized by your marriage. And Isaid, no, no, no. Like, don't you understand? I have these things that have traumatized me and uh I'm not soconcerned about the marriage part. And she sort of was like, "No, Kristen, like you are like she said all these otherthings you have like essentially post-traumatic stress because it it it was over." But she's like, "Yourmarriage you're walking into every day traumatized because the trigger never goes away for you." And that was when Istarted realizing like I had responsibility um in the relationship. I kind of justlived in the lie that when he gets better, I'll get better. And so there was a lot of managing that happened inthere. There was a lot of me trying to control. There was a lot of me calling people for him or trying to push himinto accountability, me being his covenantized partner, which I never ever recommend, you know?And so, I mean, I'm grateful because over the last six years,um, I've learned a lot and I've changed a lot. And I think Kevin's changed too,but it's been so messy and so painful and it's just been like the word thatcomes to mind is excruciating. Um like trying to navigate this and um and wehave four children. Uh we co-own a business together. like there's so manylayers that make our situation unique and very difficult becauseum I would just say like we're we're pretty inshed like not like in a like way that we intended to be but becauseof circumstances that played out and so for us to both heal individually are their own momentous tasks but thethought of healing healing our relationship feels even more momentous to some degree and so one of the thingshe said in the interview with you guys, which of course my inner critical selfwas like he said something about like she went to counseling and realized that she couldn't heal if I couldn't heal andI wanted to like raise my hand and say that's not true. I know I can heal without you but I know our marriagecan't heal if you're unwilling to heal. And I think that's the part that I've been struggling with is I'm putting in alot of work to try to understand myself and what I need. Um, but I would like tobe married to my husband. Whether he is able to show up and do the work has beenthe scary part. Um, because it's his choice, not mine. Ican't force him to do it. That was a really long intro. That was awesome. That was great.It's so cool that you came on because especially having talked to him in a different episode, I'm my head isalready starting to put puzzle pieces like on the table together now. I'm going like, "Oh, I wonder ifI wonder if I'm sure with the work you guys have done, you probably put some of those pieces together." But umlet's just for a second just number one, thank you for coming on. Number two, like just it's interesting that histopic was am I disclosing too much? basically am I just ret-raumatizing her over and over and over again?Mhm. And and yet when we look at the bigger broader picture, I'm also wondering now with what you just shared that if thecore beliefs are you will always be alone and no one can ever comfort you.I wonder if the conversations that you've had together have been the nonvulnerable ways of trying to get theanswer to are you here for me and can you and can you comfort me? But they've been talked about in terms ofmore of like what you talked about where let's hurry and get you into therapy or hey you report to me every single daybecause then that's going to make me feel safe and I'm going to know that like you're you're but really deep down inside it's maybe more of that deeperare you there for me and are you willing to like put some skin in the game to be with me instead of somewhere else.Right. Yeah. I I agree and I and it's so important for him to share his ex pointof view because I know that's something he struggles with and so like it's sofunny because when he told me that he was doing this interview with you guys um literally I had two opposingreactions at the same time and the one was like I I articulated this way. I I know that he has kind of like an addictbrain and then his authentic self. And I think I have a um tra traumatized brainand then my authentic self. And so our our wounded parts don't play nice together. Umso like the part of me that's like, "Hey, you're my friend and I'm so excited for you." Like my authenticself, the one I want to be is like, "I think this is great that you're going on a podcast and like you're so brave andI'm so impressed by you." And then the traumatized part of me is like, you're going to say something that makes mesound like a controlling freak and you're going to go in public and you're going to talk about our relationship andalso you're going to The other part of me is like, how can you talk to strangers and not talk to me about this?Like, it's so complicated. It's so messy. Yeah. Yeah. But but you just said it. You hear thatlike that that old story of nobody is there for me. You can go talk to strangers, but you can't talk to me.There's like the the followup therefore blank. That means what?That means I am not worth connecting to or I am going to be abandoned or I'mstill alone. I'm still on the island. That's the story. That's the inside part of the story that goes along withhey, I'm going on this podcast. Plus the vulnerability of like what are you going to say? Like anybody's going to have that vulnerability,right? Yeah. I want to ask I I want to sort something out just a little bit becauseit seems like there's been kind of a back and forth of like it's a chicken or the egg thing. Is the marriage the issueor is the marriage the the symptom theright? What do you what do you think Kristen? Cuz it sounds like you've heardsome things from your therapist about it. you've kind of I I really like the way you started your introduction oflike, hey, just so you guys know, there's been this trauma in my past. Um,which is very helpful to to know. So, is the marriage the issue? Is the marriagethe the symptom?That's a good question. Um, I mean, our marriage is dysfunctional.We in many ways know the right things to do but struggle to actually execute them. Um we're very well educated andKevin didn't even say this but he actually has his master's degree in Christian counseling. So he's not a foolwhen it comes to this sort of stuff. Like we've had language to talk about this for a really long time. But knowingwhat to do and having the capacity and the courage to do it are such separate things. And I thinkthe marriage has highlighted our own issues. And so I think it's it might bethe answer is yes to both. Like I would like for our marriage to recover. Um andour marriage highlights so much of our own individual dysfunction. UmI don't know if that answers your question. I want to Kristen, I want to kind of push on something a little bit.Um because because I remember him talking about like you guys have plenty of education, you guys have plenty ofUm but toward the end of his episode, I said to him, I said, I think you need to blow it all up.Um and I wonder if that information that you have is the right information. Um,and if that information that you have is and those systems are actually working, if you're beating your heads against awall trying to figure this out by doing the things that you're told, but it'sjust not getting you where you want to get to. Um,do what do you think about that? Yeah, I thinksome things have been helpful, some things have been hard. And and soI'll just be honest like I struggle sometimes because uma lot of times I'm wondering like what's my part to own in this like in this dynamic because I understand that I somy therapist told me one time while we're sitting down talking she's like you might have a sex addiction and I was like great what does that mean and she'slike because you you know I you like she's like you use sex in on analth inan unhealthy way and so um like to try to get connection that's not there.She's like, it's kind of your own way to try to feel intimacy that's not working for you. And so there's like a lot ofparts that like I've been able to apply and really reflect on. UmI think what's hard and I there's a part of me that just wants to always blame Kevin for not showing up. And I thinkthat's the part that's difficult for me is umhe uh you know he's my husband so I'm liketrying to be like thoughtful about how I say this and he's his own person but what our personal history has shown isthat he really struggles to put action behind intention and struggles to showup emotionally. struggles to um be consistent. And soI'm not sure cuz in my mind I'm willing to do the systems and I'm willing to dothe things and I was in support of him going to an intensive and I you knowthese things that I hear are really beneficial 12step all of these things we've triedright so we and I say we meaning me saying hey have you considered thisright and I I know the dynamic that's hard is he needs to do this himself and if he's just constant ly um taking onthese recovery projects because I am asking for that then it's not going to work. And I do agree that's the part toblow up right is his perspective of doing this for me. Um I'm not sure thenwhat I'm supposed to do because I still need to feel safe in some regard and I don't feel safe with a person whothe what the way I feel about it is like you're giving me almost nothing. I'mexpecting what I think is fairly little of you. Like have a conversation with me a couple times a week and tell me howyou're doing and that seems too hard. So I get a little resentful.Do do you remember the the breakfast part of the episode? Yeah. And he like slowly says likewell I'd eat the breakfast, right? Yeah. And to to me what I what I what Iwas picking up on is and and I know he'll listen to this and and hopefully he's like really examining this. Um likeyou want to feel safe, you're saying Kristen, right? Well, there's a there'sa key ingredient to trust and safety in a relationship and that's honesty. Mhm.That's And and when when we say honesty, it's not honesty in in the like, oh, Idid all these things and I'm going to tell you about it and I'm going to show you that I'm It's authenticity. It'slike honesty on a level of I'm going to show you who I am. Like this is who I really am.Yeah. Um, and and so like the breakfast thing, the the example or even thecheck-in, like the part where you're talking about check-ins and I think Tyler said like that's not leading to safety for her or something.Um, uh, the like he's terrified of you.Yeah. But I don't know why. Okay. I don't understand that part. Right.That's right. So the the marriage, by the way, I'm going to like the marriagecan either be a source of like retraumatizing or the marriage can bethe biggest asset that you guys can have to move forward. It can be one or the other. Um, but if you don't shift thesystems a little bit that right now, I believe, just to be straight with you, I believe that the marriage is more of asource of shame and pain and trauma than it is an asset. And I think having metyou now, Kristen, and having met him, I think you can shift this and together you can actually really help each other.Um, but if we take breakfast or if we take uh check-ins or whatever it may be,right, the dynamic there is some pretty intense codependency,he's he's like, I I am who Kristen says that I am. I'm going to try to be that, right? I'm going to I want to fit intothat mold and because I want to support her and because I want her to know that I care and because I want her to be happy withme, but but he's doing it selfishly to make sure you don't want to reject him even though he's saying he wants to giveyou all the things you just said in your core beliefs. So, I don't I want to be I want someone who can comfort me. Andhe's like, I'm doing everything I can to comfort her. and he's not comforting you, but he's actually reenacting his owntrauma at the same time that he's complicit in your reenactment of your trauma and you guys' marriages reenactment of the same traumas over andover again. Mhm. Yep. So here's the hard thing and this is this is where you guys can be aawesome like support and asset and do actually do some work togetheris in that moment when um you ask him a question or whateverand he gives an answer that is authentic that he thinks is going to trigger youand like cause just a a all kinds of fear.Th those are the moments. These are the important moments of trust building. What why would that build trust with youif he actually was honest with you even if he didn't like it? Well, I think the thing that's been sohard is when there is withheld information like I don't I don't know what's real. And that's that's kind ofwhat I've said to him a lot of times is like if I'm the kind of person that like if I have to go get blood drawn, I wantto watch the needle go in. I want to know who's doing it. I want to know because I need to like emotionally prepare for the pain, right? So likeeven if it's seconds earlier. So So for me, I if he's able to be honestand tell me, then for me that's much less scary than me wandering around knowing, do I have all the information?Is this reality or is this just a song and dance to keep me happy? I don't wantto invest in something that is like,you know, throw myself into a basket and just be like dropped on the floor,you know, but the the like why is he not able why is it so hard to be honest with you? Hementioned this on his episode. You know what? And we we had like a a a hard conversationlast night. And I think like and I'm I'm trying to understand this too becauseanytime I express any sort of pain or frustration or concern and and I'velearned the tools, the Gottman method, the gentle invitation, all that stuff. Like Kev, like this is hard for me, butlike anytime he hears any sort of negative anything, he shutsdown. He just boom. And it's like the shame just and and so we had like a real life notconnected to like sobriety conflict yesterday where um two of our littleboys are asthmatic and they're both really sick and I'm had to take one of the urgent care and Kevin was away allweekend and I'm feeling burned out. right? Because I've been caring for the kids so he could have his time and and Ihe came home from his weekend away and I was like, "How was your time? What didyou learn?" Trying to be what I consider like I'm like genuinely interested and I want to be a good partner and I want tohear about your experience. And so he's sharing with me in an authentic way. And then he's like, "That's great. I'm going to go read a book now." And I'm like,"Wait, where does the reciprocity come in? Like do I get to be asked how I'm doing? do I get? And so that's thecodependent part that I need to work on is I'm not good at asserting my needs because I don't even know I think upuntil a few years ago I didn't know I was allowed to have needs. So like I've just I'm that perfect overachievingpeople person that every people pleaser that everyone loves because I just never disappoint anybody.And um it's gotten exhausting and I've been working on not being that person and trying to understand why I operate asthat person. But it tends to be that like in my marriage, it's like the place where I want to be like, "Hey, like Ihad a hard weekend and I'd love to talk to you about it." But also like can I be pursued a little bit? Like do I get aninvitation to have a conversation? like do I get to be so so anyway I wasbringing up how I was feeling and immediately I mean he he even said he's like he just got ashamed immediately andthen it turned into this well well I showed up in this way and you didn't notice that and it turned into anargument and I was like this is not helpful and so I can recognize that now and say like this conversation's notgoing anywhere and it tends to be that like his shame response is so immediate and so strongit's so hard for him to hold space to hear me be in pain or to be frustratedor anything. And so the problem is then so I kind of am met with two optionsbecause I've heard too that like for recovery I need to be able to be honest and authentic. So if I choose to withhold informationand I choose to try to not say anything that's going to trigger him then I build resentment. So I try to be reallyproactive and saying like this is what's hard for me. The problem is either way I lose because I lose because I'm not ableto be authentic and so there's no connection or when I try to be authentic which is my way of I think trying tofind repair or like find closeness and he shuts down and disassociates from meI'm still by myself. So I struggle and I and again I'm not trying to say Kevin this is your problemand if you would just do the things that you were told to do you know use the tools.Um, but that that's the part of me that gets hurt is like how many times do I have to replay this reality where I'mover here just trying to like I don't even feel like thissounds I I want to be accurate in what I'm saying. Like I'm actually don't feel like I'm a superhyperontrolling person. Um maybe he would disagree with me. I don't know.But there's something to me like it's almost like his shame response is bigger than just me. It's something elseum that comes into play, but I can't access him when he gets to that point. It's likehe disappears. I say it's like the lights go out and he just goes away. And so I don't I don't know how to get himback. Yeah. I don't know how.Yeah, you just you just painted that picture really well for probably a lot of other people who are listening rightnow. And this comes back to that idea of the reenactment of the trauma in ourmarriage is what we're doing right now. And the way we're approaching it, and this is where Brandon's saying, blow it all up is he's not saying blow up yourmarriage. He's saying blow up the systems that are currently in play that are keeping the re the reenactmentsgoing and replace them with maybe something else. And in your situation, you just paintedthis really beautifully. Here I am with these things that you said earlier. um you'll you'll always be alone and youcan't you no one can comfort you. You are on your own. Mhm. Now here I am in this relationship withsomebody who by nature of what they've done to cope with life has pulled away. So So all they ever do is pull away. Andthen when you do interact with each other, all you get is this unstable like performance because he's in his own space of notwanting to get rejected for whatever his ideas are and traumas are. And then he comes and he's honest with you in hisown mind, which is a massive, massive step in his mind. And you're like, "You should be doing this all along." And butthen you hear what he has to say and you're like, "Oh, I don't like that. That sucks." And he's like, "No, never mind." Like, "I'll eat the breakfast." Like,like, "I love I love scrambled eggs with Sriracha on them." Like, whatever. You're like, "But you're a liar, dude.Like, no." So, so you're over here going, "I'd rather have you be honest even though it's hard for me. And whenit's hard for me, it's not just that you're responsible to like never havefeelings or never share your feelings. It's on both people in this in the marriage you guys are in right now topause to it's actually an act of courage followed by a deep breathto breathe in the courage again to then take the next step. So, so he finally comes and is clean with you aboutsomething that he like really thinks and you're like, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard."And he's like, "Okay, but I'm here." And then you're going to go, "That hurts really bad tohear that." And thank you so much for being honest with me. Right? Or maybe he pauses and goes,you ask him, he ask him a question. He goes, "Okay, the act of courage is to give herthe truth and give her a chance to practice holding this because I've neverreally given her a chance to hold it." Mhm. And so now we could change the way thatthe pattern happens with just an act of courage and a deep breath pause withwithout having to stop being authentic. Mhm. There can be the both and, right, thereis, hey, this really really hurts me. Like, I'm I'm really upset that youdidn't attune to the fact that I need some time myself and going and reading a book is going to be something thatdoesn't sit well with me right now. And man, I'm so glad you had a greatweekend and I'm so glad you're learning how to take care of yourself and manage your emotions. Where do we b bridge that gap now?Right? We still have to have that conversation. or he shrinks away and disappears and you get to say, "I don't need you toshrink away and disappear. I need you to I need you to offer some presence." Can you do that now? And if not, when dowe want to touch base again? Right? Because now I'm inviting a new change. Like I'm seeing I'm seeing whereboth of our kind of shame is at. Right? But but here's the deal. Likethis song and dance what you're describing, Tyler, this song and dance will continue. It will continue andcontinue and continue until something is addressed.And um Kristen, you found him for a reason. And he found you for a reason.And um but there's a there's a missing piece for for for him and for you tohave the fortitude to do what it takes to create that space of intimacy in your relationship. there's a missing pieceand it's it's pretty clear. Uh you've done a great job at articulating it. Umhe he talked about his trauma of of rejection when he was a child. You've talked about your trauma of fear andabandon abandonment. And so you guys just keep like creating that with eachother. And the truth is is and I'm not invalidatingany of the feelings that you have around your trauma Kristen, but they've left you with a storyand they've left you with a a perspective with a reality to in for your soul and for for your and your yourego is just protecting against that reality. And that's what's going on with him too with you. you're just kind ofthis this figure of like this person that that is gonna just reject him. Andso he creates he creates you rejecting him again and again and again. And sowhen you come along like hey I need to voice up and tell you like I would like some connection.He doesn't take that as oh Kristen wants love. How does he take that?I'm not good enough. Yeah. I'm getting rejected. Mhm. So, if we don't actually addressthat inner child that's scared to death on both of your parts. Mhm.If we don't address it, then you'll continue to have these interactions thatare showing that it's still there. Now, you're probably thinking like, Brandon, I've done therapy. I've Yousaid we I should EMDR that away. Like, I should Right. Like, I've done it. I've done it. Like, what? And may I don'tknow. I don't want to put words in your mouth, Kristen. What are you thinking as I'm saying this? No, I agree. I think the part that'shard for me to sort of sort through is um I my safety is in intellectualizingthings. Like I don't mind thinking them through. I really don't like feelingthings. Like I really don't like feeling things. And I know that. Um, I avoidparticularly feelings of fear. I don't have a problem feeling angry. Um, Ithink angry is like my safe negative feeling which ends up being destructive and so I Istruggle with that. Um, but like I've said before like it's so funny becausepeople are like, "Wow, you're so vulnerable." I'm like, "I could tell you anything about my story. Okay, I can tell you anything about my life and notbe embarrassed, but if I am crying in front of you, it's excruciating. Like I am notbecause I think the moment of being like actually feeling in my body the actual vulnerability of all of thosecircumstances is so terrifying and it's so out of control. And so I don't reallyget emotional with Kevin because he's not a safe person in my mind to be vulnerable with.So, like and the inner child stuff's really interesting becauseum like Kevin came back from an intensive and shared a lot about doing inner child work and he was like, "Oh,it's so great." And I was like, "Wait, you like your inner child?" And he'slike, "Oh, yeah. I love my inner child." And I was like, "Really?" Cuz I think about my inner child and I'm disgustedlike like I have a lot of disgust for my young self. And um so I'm working onthat with my therapist now and she really wants me to be like why is it that you have so much like um she calledit why do you hate yourself so much which is confusing for me because I lookat myself now and I say well I'm I'm accomplished and I'm intelligent and I'm kind. I'm a good mother. I'm a goodwife. I I don't feel guilty or embarrassed about how I choose to live my life. Um I like who I am today. Butif I look back at inner child me, that dislike for that person is what has putme on a trajectory to like who I am now. So why do I have to go back and like that person? I thought,you know, like it's almost like backwards in my mind. So I'm really really struggling to have compassionum for the inner child. And I don't I think I can say like theoretically it'sprobably connected to um just sort of like internalizednegative beliefs about myself because of how my childhood was. But I struggle with that. So like Iunderstand like the parts of me that tend to be more codependent stem out of that innerchild. Um, and so I I I know I need to deal with her, but I even me saying Ihave to deal with her is probably flagging, you know, therapists everywhere like, oh no, like she dealwith your inner child. You embrace them and nurture them. And I don't know how to do that. Kristen, can we back up likeYeah. n 90 seconds from now because you basically just did the exact same thingyou were talking about right here on our show. Great. I displayed the or there was wellyeah I think well I wonder and I want to I want to try to connect some dots for you to see if see if it's true umokay what what did come up what was that wetness in your eyes and the shake inyour voice and what was going on inside your bodyPeople leave me when I'm sad. There it is. There it is. Oh, I just gotthe chills, Kristen. Like, I see you.I hear you. Yeah. And so, and so there you are. Here youare. This is you right now. Right. But you can't, heaven forbid youshow your husband this part of you. Well, I think it's because it hasn'tgone well in the past. I want to just like I I want and wecan't do this because we're we're recording an episode, but I want everyone to just shut up and just be inthe moment of the energy of the emotion because I thinkI think that's Let's do it, Brandon. Let's take 30 seconds and just be a witness to her.Yeah. Yeah.It's okay for you to feel, Kristen.I think I think you do everything you can to think your way out. Just like yousaid, like this vulnerability is Is Kevin lovable, Kristen?Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is Kristen lovable? When I'm performing, absolutely I am. Iknow exactly how to play lovable. Yeah. And and you're you're looking over at Kevin saying, "Stop performing,buddy. You're lovable." like you're, hey, I just want you. I just want you to be you. Like, just be you. And he'slike, well, what should I do? What should And then you're like in your own way, you're like, yeah, but like I I'mperforming this way. And the truth is is I I mentioned toKevin about your kids about him loving them. And um and all of us, you know,with our our shadows, with our blemishes, um our our imperfections,like are are we actually lovable? Is that just like, you know, what we're taught and we should say that or is thattrue? Yeah. I think I see it so easily inother people, right? So your your protective parts are there saying protect protect protect.And what we just did, we just sat in this like oh my gosh vulnerability, right? Um and so the work to be done isto say how can I how can I unbburden that those protectors and not betriggered into this fear all the time and just like you actually went therepretty well Kristen pretty quickly. It's like right there. It's you can go there.Um, but how can I unbburden those protective parts and realize that this trauma that I've had in my past is notgoing to run the show anymore for me? Um, that when Kevin or a family member,whomever does something that would have triggered me big time in the past,I'm good. Like, I can I'm okay. and um and I can step into my power and myauthenticity in this moment instead of fixing it, instead of being the solid one, the oldest sister, the oldestdaughter, the like all of the things that you've been told that you are. Mhm.Um so I I really am curious about like the you've done a lot of therapy. Haveyou done a lot of experential? Have you done a lot of like stepping into those moments? the very mo the the 20 to 30seconds that we just had and you might be like, "Holy cow, like that's not that's the exact opposite of want. Iwant to go talk. I want to go talk to my therapist every week and just talk about the problems and talk about everything. Talk talkhead." Heart and soul need to heal.Right. Um like I'm curious about that for you,Kristen. Me too.Yeah. Do you have the courage to do what it takes to actually step into some ofthose things and change your perspective completelyso that when Kevin does something, you're like, I can handle that. It's not right.Yeah. I think another part of this is um I've heard a lot of people that gothrough well I should say this just for for any you know betrayed partnerwhatever that out there like I the thought of being in a group made my entire insides turn like rancid like Imy therapist was like you really should be in a support group and I was like why would I want to talk to women I don'tget along with women this doesn't sound good to me why would we want to share stories like this' And um she she likeand it's so funny now that I think about she played to what she knew of me. She's like, "Well, the research shows thatwomen who are in support groups heal faster." And I was like, "Okay, then I guess I have to do But like I've sincelike really like that's probably the hardest step in my recovery is being a part of being a part of a support group because um I think there are times likewhere I see other women who are so quick to be able to just like find supportelsewhere and I get a little stuck there because I don't so I guess that part ofme that like doesn't feel lovable in general I also feel probably applies to my relationships with just others ingeneral. So, I struggle to find and and this is the part that's was hard for me to come to, but I I feel like I've onlylooked to Kevin to be the person that like helps me feel seen and accepted, which is terrible when you're married tosomeone with a sex addiction because then it's basically like, well, you will never ever get that. Um, so I think partof it is like I but but guess the role I the role I play in the support group is, hey, there's a really great article onthis. There's a great therapy. I got it all figured out. about this, right? I And everyone thinks I'm really greatand wise and smart, which I think is true to a degree, but it's probably me just being really afraid. So, do I havethe courage? I don't I don't know that I've thought about it. I have like courage to do what other people think isbrave, but isn't necessarily brave for me. Yeah, that's an honest answer.Yeah. Um the there's a quote that one of our good friends shared with with usthis week and it says the answer that you seek is in the silence you're avoiding.Um yeah so and you've actually identified that that's very similar to my favorite quotethe cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek. You've identified like cave after cave in this episodeand you've said it yourself of like here's what I'm terrified of. Here's what I'm I want you to go back and listen and take you're a journaler. Takeyour pen out and just be like, "Oh, there you go." Like I identified that one and those are like maybe you need togo to your support group and shut up and cry more. Right.Honestly, that is the the treatment plan after just a couple of minutes of talking withyou would be is make a list of all the things you said I'm afraid of or you're uncomfortable with. And those are thevery places to go start stepping into with more than just the learning mindwith with an experiencing mind. Okay. Um with a with a heart and soul approachas much as the mental part. Um, I do want to share these things thatwe got a couple comments that came through on YouTube while we were talking. It says, "Thanks for coming on the show. There are lots of work.There's lots of work to do, but I'm super impressed by the amount of work you've already done and with the sincerity with which you discussthings." Another one said, "Thank you for your story and being vulnerable. It's good to see the other side of thestory and see how interactions work and how our actions impact our partners." So, thank you.My pleasure. Kristen, I don't feel like we've solved all the world's problems today.No. Um I'm really grateful you came on and and were so open and um just honest aboutyou and what you've been through. Um I uh there is a way to heal your marriage.Um but it is through healing yourselves first. And um there's still a lot of fearbehind the scenes going on. The the trauma is running the show. And so what I would say is whether you're doingtherapy or whatever, we need to put down the the like learning about it and like getting more information and actually godo the the healing work deep down. And for for both of you, and I'm I'm sureI'm not saying that you haven't done any of that. I know he went to his intensive and things like that. I'm sure you guys have done some of that, butbut there's more to go. Um, and then you'll come to your marriage and you'll be like, "Whoa, we're it's sodifferent." Like, we show up as different human beings now. Um, so would love to have you at RadiantDawn, Kristen. I'm just saying you we got a a retreat in uh month and ahalf February February 26 through March 1st. It's in southern Utah. It's a women's experential retreat.where we feel we feel a lot and we connect. She's like, "I'm out.I'm out." We connect to nature. We just like other women rediscover yourself beyondthe trauma. So, it's it's amazing and we'd love to have you there. So,um All right. Any last things that you want to say, Kristen?Just thanks for what you guys do. You're welcome. One thing I say a lot is I don't learn anything from people whohave it all together because they don't live my reality. So I always love to hear from people that are willing to goin the messy places because that's where I don't I don't trust the phonies. You guys aren't phonies.Oh, thanks. Thank you. Thanks Kristen. Well, you you you asmuch as hopefully getting some help today were also part of being a teacher as yourself because of that veryprinciple. So, thank you and thank you to those of you who are participating online. Thanks to those who arelistening. Hopefully, this is valuable to you. If you find it valuable, there'ssome simple ways to kind of show support for Kristen. The best way is to either make a comment on wherever you're consuming this or or write a review forthe show and and mention her. Um, and again, we love you and until next time,keep on keeping on.All right, Kristen.