Is our relationship forever TAINTED because of BETRAYAL?

Intro
is our relationship forever tainted because of betrayal
Brandon how you doing man I'm doing good Hey I wanted to bring something up You You always scare me when you do this No
you'll like this one Okay so tomorrow is our mom's 70th birthday and she likes to
fly under the radar a little bit but I'm not going to let her right now So um I
just wanted to talk about her a little bit So uh we are the the people that we
are because of her and um I just want to tell her happy birthday and how much I
love her And um a couple things about her and you can say whatever you want to
say too Tyler but I was thinking about her this morning and she's uh she's
played an amazing second fiddle in life but all along she hasn't
Same Therapist
been second fiddle Um she's been so important And um one thing about our mom
is she has grit like she is tough as
nails Um I I remember when she slipped and fell when she was helping us with
our paper route and broke her leg like broke the bone badly Um and she just she
recovered quickly and she got back at it She'd go mow lawns with us and teach us how to work Um but not only does she
have grit she also has a ton of love and just she's an amazing person and I just
want to mention her and tell her happy birthday 70 years It's awesome So anything you want to add Tyler 70 is a
big deal Mom We We do really love you Probably don't tell you enough It's funny Brandon as you were talking I was
thinking about the you know when we used to mow lawns as as young like teenagers when we were very first getting started
the way that we got our first jobs was mom and dad went around to all of their friends and asked them if we could mow
their lawn so we could learn how to do it And I remember one day you remember the Bailey's corner There's that uh the
Woo Me
Bailey's had this weird I drove past yesterday and then it's like just like straight like almost the cliff but you
had to mow the cliff somehow So you're kind of like trying to finagle the trying to finagle the the lawn mower I
remember one day having mom come out to help us because we were behind on our lawns And I remember her being on the
cliff like as it's like kind of like you know the mower's kind of barely staying upright She's on the cliff just like
grinding away at it And then the and then the Bailey's came driving home and pulled into the driveway right in front
of mom And I remember as a teenage kid like I'm going to get emotional thinking about this like and they had a lot of
money and stuff They they were pretty well to do Just thinking about like what that must have been like for mom to be
at her friend's house mowing their lawn to teach her boys how to work And um man
mom like uh I probably don't say it enough but the sacrifice not just that one time but all of the sacrifices going
to work at the Bureau of Criminal I you know investigation full-time job and
Romantic Gestures
then coming home and trying to be a mom and still get us to soccer and make sure we had our stuff taken care of Like all
of that has not gone unnoticed Mom And I just want you to know that we love you and wish you a happy birthday We could
do a full episode Tyler because there's a couple more things I want to say and we have an awesome guest today Um but
mom is she became a counselor and so she was a great example to us and maybe
blaze the trail a little bit for what we do today And she helped um rough like
kids you know but great kids for years and years at a junior high Um and uh
she's also uh Tyler I'm sure you know this but she is our biggest fan Like she
hasn't missed an episode Even when you're dropping swear words she still keeps listening you know
She has been to more of my presentations you know and some some
really bad presentations And she's sat through them and she's listened Like she is our biggest fan and uh and we're her
Confused by Her Needs
biggest fan So happy birthday Mom We love you So Um okay So like I said we got an awesome
guest today So let's transition to talking about the guest here Philip Welcome back to the show
Thanks Good to be here And by the way I was really enjoying hearing about your mom I was actually getting choked up too
listening to your stories I could listen the whole hour
Um so this is your second time on the show right Yeah second time And it was
uh it was a little while ago that you were on last Um so just fill us in Uh
where you at now How are things going And and what are you dealing with Yep Absolutely Thanks uh thanks for having
me here So yeah a couple years ago I was on the call We talked about um topic of
um excommunication It was really really a helpful topic Um I've since landed in
a different um congregation and um and I'm growing spiritually and
that's been that was a really good move for me Um you know and another another
big thing that I learned from that session and and the the time after was you know the need for forgiveness and
letting go of the pain that I experienced there And I was able to and
um also uh being able to really as time went on um just to you
know really be able to view that whole process in a different light and um and
have grace for the people who were involved and you know um and just
No Response
respect for what they did So all that happened it was all really good And I I relisted to that episode a couple weeks
ago and and it was uh it was good to walk down that lane and see how I had grown Philip I before you jump into the
new stuff I just want to say I remember that discussion when we had it And if if
people could have heard your voice or even seen your body language your body language is so much softer this time
around than it was last time It seems like there's been a lot of letting go and a lot of surrender since the last
time we visited Thanks Thanks for noticing Yeah it's true It's true Um Yeah Yeah for sure Um
a lot of growth And so um so I am uh still married Um I have you
know my kids are 16 and 13 Um and uh I
moved back into the house um about four months after
discovery and um it has it has since been a very long
Asked About the Note
slow um painful path um in my marriage
So um there have been um moments of um
great spiritual um insight um on the part of my wife where she has
um you know she's like she's had dreams she's had visions she's uh you know
sensed God speaking to her and and what she needs to do and and and there's that
that was really heavy around like the December January time frame that we just
passed Um and so it's it's been a lot slower lately right And the spiritual
um Holy Spirit showing up and and shining light and doing incredible things has been kind of slow in that
Triggered Memories
space uh of of late Um and so um but you
know but we're still together We're still uh doing uh life It feels more
like roommates than than husband and wife Um you know and I guess you know if
you were an onlooker um and looked at us it looks pretty normal Um I sleep in the same bedroom as
my wife And um and that was just you know that was something that I just kind
of said "This is what I'm going to start doing I'm not going to sleep in the basement anymore." And she was like
"Okay." you know um and um and so what when I say things
look normal like we take vacations together So we took a vacation last year
together We went to France and and um and uh and the Netherlands and um and
then most recently a few weeks I live in the Northeast and we took a trip a weekend
trip over Memorial Day weekend up into the White Mountains of New Hampshire So that took us on a road trip through um
Connecticut Massachusetts Vermont into New Hampshire and then on the way home
we went down the main coast and and and uh so got to see a lot of New England
And before kids we had uh we had done a lot of similar
things And um as the as the trip unfolded I was you
Good Turns Painful
know I remembered a lot of really good memories of things that we had done together uh before we had kids when we
had gone camping or or a restaurant that we had gone to or a place that we
visited Um and uh you know and I I mentioned
those as we were driving around I mentioned those things that that we had seen and remember that and
um and then um so I work with a therapist and and actually we then we
both see the same guy who's who's my therapist and
um what one of the things that I've been I've been trying to do at my wife's
request is um she uh she wants me to woo her right
So we've been married for 23 years Discovery was at about 20 21
years And um and uh so you know she has said you
know yeah I want to be wooed Her term was seduced but kind of dug into that word a little bit and figured out what
she really meant because sexual intimacy is not part of the picture Um and and so
it meant to be wooed And so I've I've written several you know like cards um
to her and little note cards and and get her flowers and and put the note card by the flower and bought her some jewelry
Feeling Lost
She's not really into jewelry So just trying to figure out what it is that that she likes and wants is is really
really difficult Um and if I ask her uh you know she's like "Well you need to
figure that out." So um I sent her a note very recently and and I invoked a memory of of the
night that we got engaged and um it's a nice note I left it by the flowers that I had picked some peonies out of the
garden and um never got any acknowledgement you
know And so in one of our weekly conversations I after our trip and after this note I said "How how how did that
note sit with you?" you know when I when I re recollected the night we got engaged and
um and she just started talking about how all of that that memory um the
memories of the things that came up when we were traveling on Memorial Day weekend all of that just
um serves to trigger her big time right Cuz she's thinking "Well what were you
doing when we weren't sitting in that restaurant what were you doing um after
you dropped me off the night we got engaged Um and and so these are all
What Is Wooing?
things that just really uh you know she can't she can't even look at pictures
right We got photos of our kids um and and she doesn't even want to look at
them Um so we've got you know 20 21 years of
of marriage and memories um that are 21 years worth of triggers
for her And I'm kind of at a loss for like you
know what to do with that and and how how what can I do How can I show up to
make that better And I don't know if I can but um that's kind of my question I
I don't really know what to do with her being triggered at at our entire life
together Not only know the good stuff and the bad
It's a great it's a great question Philip Um I just want to make sure I restate it back to you so that me and
our listeners are all on the same page with what I think you just said In essence you have a massive history
Connect Through Pain
together And in that history you still have some fond memories of that history And every time you bring up those
memories it reminds her of the double life you were living And it actually causes her a lot of pain even though
you're wanting to share those things for connection with her And now you're wondering how do I help facilitate
really the grieving process over the loss of hopes dreams would a should have
could all that other stuff and allow us to just accept the lives that we have had together and then move forward Yeah
exactly Um yeah I have a lot to say I don't want
to jump to the chase here Um I want to back up And you know when when she says
she wants you to woo her she wants you to you know basically kind of win her
heart right Like um and it it sounds like you've
interpreted that as you know go out of your way to be romantic kind of like
notes flowers things like that Is that accurate Yeah
And then those those type of things create triggers for her right If I
Hold Space
invoke a memory Yeah Yeah So the
um when we talk about connecting to her heart um I think a lot of times as honestly as
men we miss this like what does that actually
mean Does it just mean flowers and notes
No it's got to mean so much more than that It means a lot more than that
Um what she's saying to you Philip is I want to be seen I want to be I want to be accepted
I want to be understood right where I'm at And so if right where she's at is in
pain because she's grieving then your biggest opportunity to woo her is in that pain
feels backwards So the moment that you gave her that note wasn't when you were actually
stepping up for her but that moment when she came to you and said that just triggers me there's your
opportunity But if her trigger triggers you and you go into like defensive mode
or shame screen or disconnect then what that shows is is that you gave that note and that it was
Self-Serving Acts
flowers for you not for her Are you following me
Um it's it's a beautiful painful difficult thing with betrayal is the
opportunity for reconnection comes through holding space for the pain Mhm
Um and so it's it's like really confusing for the betrayed partner
because they're like "G I I like that they'll hold space for me but at the same time I don't want to get too close
to them because they could hurt me." Um but if the betrayer can actually hold
that space it really helps to heal the relationship So what are you thinking
about what I'm saying Um so the you know when when you said that you know the the
the card the flowers all that stuff was was actually for me not for her Um it's
I I don't disagree with you but what's really bizarre is the amount of time and energy and
icking and screaming to actually do that right It's like how could that
possibly have been for me That was such a selfless like giving doing doing
something I absolutely abhored doing Had no desire to do it Nothing that I it's
it it feels contrived these things that I do I am trying to fan the flame in
hopes that a spark you know the embers will will
will grow right The fire will grow Um
so but you know yeah it's self- serving right Yeah
Doing It for a Payout
There you go There you go Because because I'm doing it because I
want something Yeah Is that love like that You know
I guess not Right I thought it was Yeah
If I go if I go mow the lawn if I go do everything around the house if I And it's like all this good stuff and my
wife can feel for me just a little bit like I'm doing it because I want her to be like "Good job Good boy."
Then I didn't do that because I just want to do that because I just you know
out of the goodness of my heart I did that because I wanted a payout Was it fun to mow the lawn No Was it fun
to you know is a sacrifice It was hard and I was still serving me
Right There's a big difference Yeah Here's another way maybe to look at this
and I'm going to share this from like a very personal place with my own journey
Philip Um if you would have asked me early on in my marriage if I loved my wife I would have gone to the grave
saying "Yes I love her." Um and then the betrayal happened and she'd say things
like "You don't love me." And I'd say "Yes I do Yes I do Yes I do." And and I think I honestly did love her in a
Fight for Her Heart
certain way but the love was as Brandon was saying it was it was coming from a
self-serving place of not wanting to lose her And everything I did was to not lose her rather than actually really
loving her And I remember it dawned on me one day that I wasn't actually loving
her And I had all my dailies lined out you know I'm in recovery I'm sober for
years now And it hit me and I'm like I'm still not loving her And I was I was
introduced to a concept called battling for her heart on a daily basis And the first place I went to was was everything
you're doing which I actually believe is part of the battle the romantic stuff Like get her flowers write her notes do
the memory thing Like all of that stuff is good stuff Like you're not doing bad stuff with that But the energy with
which I do it might not be serving me or her And the battle for her heart
includes so much more than that The battle for her heart includes coming home and she's had a rough day and you
sit with her and listen to her and hear it and hold it for a minute without going into your shame The battle for her
heart does include looking around at the things that she typically does and trying to lighten the load a little bit
or being a little bit foresight with like this sounds so stupid but she'd start to say things like man one day I'd
Real Love
love to be able to do this thing or one day I'd love to take care of this thing and I would go after she said it I'd go
put it in my phone in the notes under her name and then I would go to work on trying to make sure I helped facilitate
that getting done before she had to come back around to it And I remember she she slipped one day and I did one of those
things and I was doing it because I wanted to learn how to love her to actually really giving love her instead
of taking love her And I was doing a couple of those things She walked in the door and she and it was something that
was not romantic at all It was like some household chores or something And I heard her under her breath go like "Oh
my gosh he is so hot right now." And I'm like "What
like what what just what just happened here Because in my head I was doing anything but that There was no romance
There was no it was just it was just the jeans you were wearing
Yeah Exactly Right But it was like and then that started to click like oh my wife is
a different beast than I am And the more I dive into really wanting to understand
Listen and Support
her know her love her and the less I put pressure on
getting something back the more space there is for some of that healing to take place It sounds
kind of weird It's like a paradox Mhm Um we had a a therapist in group one day He
had a guy come in into group and he was like all frustrated and he was like "Guys I've been doing this thing for like battling for my wife's heart." He's
like "I've done the dishes for 39 straight days and she hasn't said anything and we haven't had sex." And
and my therapist sat there for a second He kind of like chuckled and he's like "So what's the problem?" He's like "She doesn't notice me She doesn't see how
bad I'm battling for her heart." Like he's like "Do you know what the problem is to me is that you've counted 39
days." He's like "Why why do you have to keep the count?" Right He's like "Why are why are you doing it What is your
reason for why you're doing it And that part really really matters
I Yeah I just think of like everything Tyler just said Like
there's there's like icky flowers It's like oh good you gave me flowers that
like gh I hate that I I I I'm thinking of a client years ago who planned a
whole trip for his wife and like there was all these little things that he planned and this and that and all really
cool stuff like very thoughtful but at the end of it there
was this and so like tell me how awesome I am as a husband give me sex smile at
me tell me I'm amazing because look at all the things I'm doing So guess guess how much she enjoyed those things Zero I
mean every every little thing was like gh again So you know
um so you know what's really cool Philip for you Yeah Just the little bit that
you've you've told us today just the little bit Your wife um there's actually
tons of opportunity and space for you to connect to her Do you see that No I don't at all Um I'm
I'm I'm not in the intricacies of everything but Tyler and I have worked with a lot of couples who get to a place
of apathy um a place of hatred place of total disconnect And just a
little bit of what you've said today one she's going on trips with you road trips So you're in the car stuck together
She's willing to get in that car with you Mhm She's has you in the bedroom You're you're you know you're making
that decision but you both are in the bedroom together She's opening up to you about how it's triggering
um when you bring up the that the engagement story She's opening up So So
all of these little signs show me that your wife is actually
wanting to connect Maybe not like totally vulnerable and ready to but
there's a lot of hope here still Mhm Um do do you see what I'm saying Yeah I
do I do Thank you for opening my eyes to that I I hear a ton of that opportunity
too And And I think the challenge is is you know what I don't want you to do to
hear is I got to stop doing the flower thing I got to stop doing the note thing I got I don't think you should stop it I
think that you see it as a step in the overall process And then know that when you go and take her on this trip and you
give her this like anniversary kind of thing and it does come up and it is
triggering for her that you don't go into shame You don't disappear You don't
agree with her that you should never do that again Mhm You step into going I can see it's it's like uh you the movie
Inside Out Yeah when uh you know she she's dragging sadness by you know by
the foot and sadness is reaching out her arm and touching like every core memory like ding ding ding ding ding ding ding and then finally joy sees it and she
throws this panic like what are you doing you're ruining all the memories d you know when in reality sadness had to
do all of that as part of the process you know we we have we have a a
family picture on our wall one wall with all of our family pictures we have one for almost every year of marriage we've only missed like two years And I
remember right after like D-Day happened with us my wife took all the pictures off the walls She didn't want to see
anything She didn't want to touch anything I'm surprised she didn't burn them Right But then slowly as we started
to get into our work she put them back on the wall and there was like three or four years worth that she just couldn't
tolerate because it just brought back all that same stuff like that's when he was lying to me here and that's when this and that's when he's being a
hypocrite there and that's when you know and then in the process of her recovery then she got to where she's like I want
that to be on the wall because it reminds us of the whole journey we've had together and now it's gotten to a
place where we can even look back at those same images and there is that little tint of sadness to the memory but
there's also and man those were some really good times like remember this
remember that and we've we've come full circle to where there is still a little bit of that sadness there but there's
also the remembrance of the good stuff that came with it And it took really a full cycle of the grieving
process to get there So so part of how you might be battling for her heart right now is helping to step into
facilitating the grieving process And that's what Brandon's saying is when she comes to you she's like "That was so
triggering." Most people hear the word trigger and they're like "That's bad." And you're like "No that's not bad."
Like thanks for sharing I get I get it Of course it's triggering Like let's
let's go there for a minute Like we don't have to run from it It's okay for you to feel whatever sadness anger
devastation whatever I'm here with you And I still remember that fondly too
Both are true Right Um that's how you're going to that's how you're going to offer that
connection that Brandon's talking about Yesterday I was working in the garden
and um my kids are getting ready to go out to see we lived in the Midwest for about four years and then we moved back
to the East Coast And so my kids got to know their cousins pretty well when we lived there And so they're going to
they're going to fly out to see their cousins And by the way I'm just kind of like um not interacting with my family
um very much at all right now Part of because of a brother-in-law But um my
kids are going to go stay at this brother-in-law's house with whom my wife has a really big beef and
um and so and the brother-in-law also knows a lot about my story because
um I don't know how he found out but he found out and is really disgusted by me
And so my wife came to me in the garden yesterday and fearful that um as she
thinks about our kids going out there that brother-in-law is telling his kids
or brother-in-law is telling somebody else because brother-in-law does talk a lot Brother-in-law is telling somebody
somebody's telling the cousins cousins are talking to my kids
What about your dad You know so this fear right like "Oh my god what's going
to happen if you know if this happens?" And I'm like "Okay yeah that that would
really suck." Um you know but I'm not going to live in I'm not going to live in fear if he does that If he did that
if that happens that's out of my control It's something that I have to just let go And
um I she said I said "Is there is there
you know something that you're wanting me to do here Is you want me to call my
sister and ask her something?" And um and she said something about you know
calling her up and anyways calling her up and asking her if Paul's talked to so I just whatever right I I I I can't even
I can't even begin to imagine what that conversation would look like
But I was I was really frustrated by the fear
and you know that like I mean what what would be the downside I mean as far as
I'm concerned you know if people find out about my past they find out about my past you know I'm accepting that is an
outcome of how I lived Um Philip why are you frustrated by her fear
Because because it is fear-based Okay Um and and so why does that
frustrate you because she allows fear to
um drive her emotions and um her secondguing the fact
that we're sending them out there and taking blame for all I was the one who
said last summer they're never going to go again and then this year it was actually my idea right that they go and
I said okay you know yeah they can go I want them to spend time with their cousins thinking it was a softening right Um so
it that that kind of stuff that's what frustrates me So okay Philip I I saw this meme yesterday and
it was this woman and it it said "I was feeling anxiety but then I don't anymore
because my my husband told me it's not that big a deal."
Um so like if she's feeling fear and you're like "Oh God why are you spinning
in fear?" And you know it's this emotional response and would you please like in your energy even if like would
you please stop It's what's that going to do Yeah It it didn't help at all
Right It's going to amplify at all Exactly And so and so I'm thinking you know this is a real opportunity to give
space and oh my god it's just like it's like to to recognize that in the moment
when that kind of reaction like she's inside cooking I'm outside working on the garden She's in there dreaming up
This is what's going on in my head She's in there dreaming up things to be fearful about Right Do you do you hear
how crazy you make her sound Mhm So when she feels that from you in that moment
that she has fear it's like well I got a husband that doesn't have my back Now now here's the trick You don't have to
agree with her to validate her Do you know that Mhm If you're strong enough
within yourself you can stay true to your truth and your opinion and who you are and you can absolutely completely
hold space for her and validate her Yeah And there's a part I think there's
a part of you that's like I just want to tell her like that it's not that big a deal and she should get over it right
You're missing the hold space part Mhm See what I'm saying Yep Absolutely
Absolutely There's there's to go with that Brandon I just want to make sure we don't throw out the baby with the bath
water There's a ton of good recovery work happening in what Philip just described Well look how conscious he is
of everything Yeah I mean he's totally conscious and he's also saying he was able to step in and have the
conversation He was able to say "Hey is there something I can do to be helpful to you?" He was able to kind of step in
and he's he he's owning his own stop spot and saying "I don't want people to talk about me but if they do that's the
life I've lived I own that." Like this is beautiful We agree with you Phil That was great This is this is phenomenal I
don't want you to get beat up too much by us without acknowledging that is amazing work you're doing And then the
next step that Brandon's talking about is that is like that's why he's going after this Why are you so frustrated He's like and he's kind of telling you
he's doing to you what you do to your wife about her fear He's like "Why are you so frustrated You should just stop
being frustrated You would you would suffer less You would like be happier Like why don't you just let go of the
frustration?" when indeed if I could let go of the
frustration and give her that space and just spend that time with her and as as a demonstration of wooing her right And
you would still not be agreeing with her You're not going to sign off and be like "Let's go get fearful together and oh yeah I'm going to hurry and but you're
also going to step in and go like oh my gosh like I hate seeing you in pain like this I I hate that that fear is such a
driving factor." And I acknowledge that there's even a piece of what I've done that probably contributes to this And uh
man I love you and I I would love to know how we can help you not have to live this way Mhm Right Um I'm here like
it's okay if you want to be fearful like um just acknowledging and seeing her is
is part of the wooing in this case Mhm
And you know as I think back to those moments when we were talking about when we were talking about it I all I could
think was what which branch am I going to clip next on the rose bush you know I mean I just wanted to get away from it
right I was just there So just like so It's hard It's hard Phil Phillip is your
wife is she crazy You gota be careful here Is your wife
crazy I bin her up to be in my head I love
that Very honest answer Um the the reality is she is because she's human
and that makes me crazy and you crazy and all of us Like to some degree our inner child runs the show and we don't
act rationally in our lives Like that happens And when you're really close with a spouse with a partner you're
right next to that inner child all the time who's screaming and crying and throwing tantrums and all this stuff Um
and so on one hand she she is because she's human and on the other hand all of
the feelings that she has as a result of these triggers are absolutely um valid and important M and we want to
know from our partners that they can both be strong enough to not take on all
of the emotions that we have and be strong enough to hold the emotions that
we have So they are healthy unto themsself healthy enough unto themsel
that they know themselves so they can be honest and even say things that might be hard for us to hear sometimes Um but at
the same time their heart is open to our pain and they will listen to our pain
Mhm And that's when you know you have a partner with some strength because they can do both They know who they are They
can open themselves up to me Not overattach but hold that space with me Right So yeah go ahead Philip I think I
think you know in what I described yes yesterday's interaction that you know if
I if I were to like you know not like hold space for her and listen but then
get fearful with her that would that would not demonstrate any kind of strength right I mean that would just
demonstrate how you know how I can just be bent any
direction with the slightest bit of you know picking
Yeah Yeah Exactly Um you know when when you crumble
because of their emotions that's where the breakdown and safety
happens Yeah Right Um just yesterday this is hard Philip like my wife brought
something to me that she was really emotional about that I can I completely don't see or don't agree with Like so on
one hand it's like I just want to tell her like "Nope not how it is Get over
it." Like "Stop stop causing yourself all this all this anguish because you're
just creating your own suffering." That wouldn't be helpful for her and
what is she really needing from me right Like I in that moment it might
be something different in any moment And I think something that we don't acknowledge enough and really understand
enough is just it's a matter of presence It's she'll come to you at one
moment and need one thing she'll come to you at another moment and need another thing And if you're not present in that
moment with her then you're just going to be guessing what she needs or you're going to be retreating and start
starting to clip the roses Mhm Um versus like let me stop for a minute see where
she's at what's actually going on and how can I actually show up for her Like
oh here's a flower Maybe that's what she needs Maybe it's the opposite Mhm Do Do
you see what I'm saying It's stopping and getting present and not getting triggered off into our own emotional
responses and our own defense mechanisms so that we can connect to what are they
actually needing in this moment Last night when my wife was talking to me I
realized she felt disconnected and she just needed to be heard and and I didn't agree with the
things I I didn't agree with Mhm But I I absolutely held some space for her so
that she could be heard Um and that that I think that's all she needed yesterday So but I get it
Philip I'm I'm I'm there with you I understand So Yeah
Brandon you know this principle that you're bringing up it it's easy to say
it and it's a lot harder to do it because in order to be able to be present with your partner especially
when you've been the source of some of their pain it takes an immense amount of shame resiliency to do that And where
most people go wrong is they're being told like show up hold space be present you know like let your partner have
their feelings but they don't go and actually do the internal work of the shame resiliency where they can come
back And the more shame resilient you become by learning to own your story by
learning to have another team for support by learning to add context by learning to not take things so personally by learning to practice these
things then when your your partner's like feelings come back towards you it's
easier not to take those things personally and then you can hold their energy instead of getting buried by your
own Right And that's the that's the hard part And I I hear you kind of in that mix of like really developing some some
good shame resiliency And the more you do that the more you'll be able to step in and hold that space and keep that
presence that Brandon's that Brandon's talking about Tyler it's a catch 22 that we see all the time in that like a lot
of times with sex addiction the reason why somebody's acting out and seeking validation through sex is because they
they try they try to get their worth from somebody else They try to get their okayess They want to be desired They
want to be seen right And so then they go betray their partner because they're acting out sexually because they want
those things Well they're extremely codependent with their partner because they've been trying to get their worth
with their partner and haven't been getting that there And so now they have a partner that they've been codependent
to who now has betrayal and has pain And it's like well I want to I want to be
seen as good I want to be seen as okay I want to be seen as desirable And you're telling me that I'm the source of your
pain And what Tyler and I are saying is "Yeah." And and right there where they where she says "I'm in pain." That's
your opportunity to actually connect Tell me more So it comes back to what
Tyler just said of like I've got to take a pause on this I got to look internal
figure out my demons do my own trauma work um so that I can show up as an
interdependent partner who can now hold that space and be strong with her at the
same time Um so it's it's a it's a catch 22 because you got to back off from the
relationship a little bit so you can show up for her right
Philip I'm not sure we've even gotten to what your original question was What's going through you right now Um well a
lot Um codependency is one And I I'm starting to like see how that's you know
it's interesting because I've I've thought throughout this whole thing I was like I I do not need her right Um
and and if it wasn't for kids and if it wasn't for you know 20 years of her
being um dependent on me as a provider that we would just be done right And and I just
I I I I'm not going to walk away and do more harm to her right and and so so
I've I've really dismissed the idea of codependency from this situation and you
guys have just opened it back up right Like it's looking like something so much more subtle Um and I'm seeing it so I'm
kind of like grappling with that Um and then and then you know yeah the whole
idea of like you know so the question was you know the the memories right that
are intermingled the good memories that are intermingled with 20 years of you know on again offagain um acting out
betrayal and not I mean I I I don't know I I can't say oh yes on on you know when
we went to Maine in in 2006 I was acting out or I was I don't remember right It
was just everywhere and I can't say with any certainty whether I was or whether I wasn't And I told her I was like even if
I could is that really going to help anything here You know and so the question is can we is is there a pathway
to separate those things And you know I talked to her about compartmentalization
and like like how you know Yeah and and and I know she hates to hear that word
but it's a reality I compartmentalized a big piece of my life and I said you know
and that's not good That's not obviously that's that's sick And I recognize
that but that was a different piece So I guess you know the question is and then
and then we walked into some really good okay well what what does it mean to actually woo her and but you know and
and so I guess then I can conclude that it really doesn't matter whether or not I can separate out the good from the bad
and the past I just got to go forward and and and that that those triggers
from times that in my in my head are are separated from the acting out and the
bad stuff Um they're not for her They're just not And so that's the pain the
place of pain where I need to meet her and hold space
I'm I'm hearing I think Yeah Yeah Okay So I just want to speak to that idea on the memories themselves for one more
second I know we're getting short on time here And Brandon you might have a different opinion on this so I'd love to
hear yours too But it's been my experience and I haven't I've had to learn this the hard way Philillip but
it's been my experience that with past memories I might see them differently than my wife does And I don't always
have to go and and have her story be the true story of the memory but I can meet
her where she's at in her energy And a couple of things that have been really helpful with for us is
um I don't try to avoid the triggers of the memories anymore I used to I used to
like walk on eggshells like uh oh we better drive home this way so she doesn't remember that we had an anniversary at that hotel like because
that'll bring up this and this and this and she's going to be in pain Now it's like I I drive that way and if we pass
the hotel and it comes up I say "Yeah I have some really fond memories there." And she's like "Oh that reminds me of
this and this and this." Okay Now what it is is an like Brandon said it's an opportunity And the best opportunity is
to meet the memory in this moment exactly where it's at with curiosity
compassion and patience with a bigger with the bigger picture in mind that really what's happening with these
memories is a grieving process And if I help facilitate the grieving process by
going like "Oh yeah I can see why you're feeling angry right now." you know or like you know we're driving somewhere
you know we're driving back up to Idaho and all of a sudden we go past a certain place and it's been 15 years since we've
been there and all of a sudden she goes "Oh my gosh Tyler my heart's pounding and my chest is tight and I feel sick
like I want to throw up." And I'm like "Oh I was just sitting here thinking about how awesome this neighborhood was
that we used to live in and like what great memories are there." She's like "I feel sick right now." Oh okay Well tell
me about the sickness Should we breathe through it Do you want to talk about it Like yeah I'm here and we can meet it
right there right now And my experience has that been that over time the grieving process will actually bring it
around full circle to where the history will be true and the history of both
sides of it will now be true I was hiding and we also made some amazing
memories and both can be true But but we try to avoid the pain and then the anger
and the sadness gets stuck and then and then we're running from triggers the rest of our lives instead of leaning
into those as an opportunity to connect with curiosity compassion and patience Holy cow Okay that's really good
So um I just have a couple I have a couple things for you Philip because we
are out of time Um uh are you familiar with the Kugi Bowl
No So yes yes yes yes The broken bolt the glue back together Yeah Yeah Yes So
why would I bring that up with you right now Um cuz I've been thinking about buying
one for my wife actually That's how you're going to woo her Yeah Yeah That's exactly what I was thinking
And get her approval Yeah I mean that that's it That's the go Like create one
with her um rather than well buy one too but create one with her and and part of
it is like when you say well I compartmentalized and I don't you know it's kind of like well I just want I
want this to go away well it's not going away because it happened it's it's you
know I love Paul Young who wrote the shack when he shares his stories uh about recovery
and he I mean he cheated on his wife with her best friend and but it's now
his story It's and it's her story too And in I mean they're they're on the the
end of it now where it's somewhat a beautiful story Everything that they've been through together of redemption and
love and forgiveness and all of those things It's a beautiful kugi bowl
Um so just consider that you can create that with her Um you you're not going to
piece this back together and and have it be exactly the way that it was It's never going to be exactly the way that
it was again Um the other thing I wanted to say to you is I I don't know where
you're at financially or things like like that but you would be a perfect candidate to be in my Wednesday men's
group Reclaim Your Heart We just started it um three weeks ago and um would do
that deep trauma healing work Um I'd love to have you in there So I just want to say that to you because you would
really fit well in there When do you meet Uh we meet Wednesdays at noon
mountain time So that's I think it's two o'clock Two o'clock Eastern time For an
hour and a half There's a I and I just want to reiterate this to you too Philip
Like it's been a while since we've talked to you and uh I would love for
you to not be a stranger If you get a benefit by coming on here come back on again in the next few months And uh if
we can be helpful to you you you're on a good path that I think people would be
able to witness some true growth happening across your personal recovery and potentially across your marriage And
it would be great to take some snapshots Love to have your wife on too if she's willing So I'd love that too Yeah All
right Philip Well thank you for coming and being vulnerable and um just sharing another part of your story Really
appreciate you and appreciate you guys To anybody listening if you want to leave a review and mention Philip and
thank him you can And until next time keep on keeping on