Is There Such A Thing As Healthy Masturbation?

2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess, what a deal. So, we if you're interested, if you're struggling, if you've been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we're also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you're a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you're saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That's exactly what I'm saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don't come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It's beyond therapy. The best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. Is there such thing as healthy masturbation?[Music] Welcome to the Real Talk Recoverypodcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers, we're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, yourquestions, your successes with real recovery. [Music][Applause] [Music]Is there such thing as healthy masturbation? Well, why do you ask, Tyler?Um, that's a great question. uh and and one that I think will bring up a lot ofdifferent feelings for a lot of people as we discuss this. So, um maybe this this episode will trigger a lot ofthings and uh get people thinking. So, um but before we get into it, um it'sreally exciting. Here we are on our new show, Tyler, right? I mean, it's basically the same show, but it's a new show.Well, it's uh I I think it's different. It's uh it's more specific and you whatwhat we're going to do is just every week bring you uh real examples ofrecovery, real examples of the struggle of recovery and bring on guests everysingle week where we break down different topics whatever the topic may be. So um you can expect guests to behere. You're going to hear from all kinds of people from different walks of life who are in different stages ofrecovery and Tyler and I will just give our two cents and our our reflectionback as to what we think about the process of recovery and and where they're at. So, I think it's prettycool, Tyler. I do too. We've we've been doing this for uh just over a year now together andrealized that some of our best episodes really are um the episodes where we havereal people bringing their real stuff on and and making a difference for people. So if you're listening, you'repotentially one of our next callers and you can make a difference. Yeah. So likeCorey and Holly who have come here with us today and have been so courageous tobe here and talk about some of their experiences and ask some awesome questions. So um I'll hand it over toyou guys if you want to introduce yourselves a little bit and then ask ask away ask any question.Yeah, sure. Um I guess I'll start. Holly's looking at me. Um I'm CoreyMcIll. Um I'm a recovering sexaholic. I've been working recovery since I thinkroughly 2015 or 2016 and uh I started off in the addictionrecovery program for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are members of that faith and um shortlyafter graduating from college and getting into the workforce, uh we started attending the SAL program. We'vebeen working with our therapist Jed Anderson or Dr. Jed Anderson, sorry, Jed. Um, andis he a doctor? I I don't know. Oh, I just always I have no idea and so Ijust call people doctor. Well, Jed's the man. So, is he is shout out to him for sure. Um,but yeah, like throughout my throughout my recovery, I've really been striving to peel back layers of the onion, so tospeak. And it's brought me to this question, you know, is there such a thing as healthy masturbation? Umbecause I I'm starting to see more and more that it'sit's it's definitely a part of human sexuality. Like there's no denying that.And so now as a father to young kids, we have three of them now. You know, I wantto be able to give them solid answers as they get older. Um but that's basically me, recovering sexaholic, gratefully inrecovery. Um, if anyone ever wants to get to know me more personally, you can currently find me in the Tuesday nightmeetings. Um, I think I attend the 6 am or 6 pm mountain time ones. So, that'swhere you can find me. Awesome. Holly, do you want to talk about kind of your angle on thatquestion as well? Yeah. So, um, so like Corey said, um,I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Um, I was taught a lot of really interestingthings about sexuality from the church. Um, and not all of them I would say were doctrinal, but um, some of the one ofthem was that masturbation was a sin. And so I just never did it. Um, I think that that's a bit more common for womento like have no experience with that. Um, and uh, I was just told that I wouldfigure I would figure out sexuality once I got married essentially. And surprise surprise um that didn't that didn'texactly work out that way for me. I think that there was there was a lot of negative sexual conditioning. Sex wasn'ttalked about in the home. When it was I got yelled at, that kind of a thing. Um and so there was a point in our journeywhere I did try to like I read a book called Clitterate and one of the things they talked about was masturbating and Itried to but couldn't do it because I just kept thinking this is wrong. Like I've been taught my whole life.Yeah. and how is this any different than what my husband is doing and and whatnot. Um and so, um after, you know,a couple years in the recovery and listening to some of Dr. Finley and Fe's content, I've kind of have a little bitof a different more nuanced view of it. But I still don't understand like what healthy like where the boundary kind ofis or could be potentially. I don't know. Maybe that's still maybe that's still black and white thinking, but umbut yeah, where does it how does it factor into like healthy sexuality? Awesome. Excellent question. Tyler, doyou want to take a stab at at it first? Yeah. Well, I mean, this is going to probably bethere's this is this is such a layered question that where there's not I don't think a real quick answer to this. So,you just you just identified a few things, a few of the layers, right? The first one is is your upbringing and the way that you were taught certain things.Uh the second thing is is basically the the journey that you guys have been on yourselves in the process of recovery.And you know I imagine Corey that part of your work and your process has beenyou know on that idea of and I don't know where you stand on it the issue yourself but I I imagine that most menthat you're working with would say that they don't want to be masturbating because they associate that withcontinued acting out. Right. Yes, very much. Right. And so, so the question is, and Ithink you kind of submitted this in the in the written question that you put in is is alsothere's a few factors that I think you've got to look at to have discussions around when you get to thetopic of masturbation. One of them is shame. Obviously, shame is a big component of this discussion. Lust isalso another component of this discussion and understanding the interplay of of lust and masturbation.And I think that's where you can start to then narrow down that pendulum you were talking about somewhere down intothe middle. Does that make sense? But Tyler, I want to say and and Hollyand Corey what you're talking about um if you're raised in a highly religious um environment, there's no such thing asa pendulum. It's black and white. M masturbation we were taught is a sin.Is that am I correct? Well, and not only that, but I feel like not just limited to sexuality. Um, butthere have been many church leaders that have talked about moral relativism. And that's kind of where it kind of gets meconcerned of like is this moral relativism creeping in, you know, is this have the gospel my way like Burger King,you know, cafeteria style. Um, okay. So, yeah. Are you justifyingare you justifying it because you know that you're trying to get your way around a commandment or but but the therigid thinking is that masturbation is a sin and you should not do that. That'sthe way that's what we have been taught. Is that am I I'm correct on that right for all of us? think I I don't thinkthat there was any um any latitude for situations in which it would have beenconsidered okay or appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. So, how do so then then how do we get back to a pendulum, right? If if onour religious beliefs are so strict and rigid that way, then how do wereconcile? Yeah. Have I have I stumped you guys? No, Brandon. I I got a a thought onthat. Um, so what you're saying is, and I actually, Brandon, I think you and I probably actually have some differenceson this topic, so it'll be an interesting discussion. Um, yeah, I let's let's take your question andlet's let's look at the word sin first. Like when when we hear the word sin,most of us who are raised in pretty rigid religious homesassociate the word sin with bad, unworthy, terrible, no good. um insteadof just letting sin be what sin is, which is basicallysomething that I do that would withdraw me from certain connections. Um that'sso so so there's shame. There's already shame kind of written in religiously tothe word sin, you know. Um and this is I think this is just like a Christian principle whereyou know doesn't matter which denomination you're looking at. Adam and Eve parttook of the fruit and theysinned, right? Which made them like unworthy or bad or whatever, right?Instead of just saying no, there was consequence for the sin which led to their basically being cast out andtraveling a different road by whereby which they could learn about God. Um,so so I think it's it's that shame that's put put into it, Brandon, that's that's as big of an issue aswell. Okay. So that so what is the sin? Is the sin the the stimulating yourselfand having an orgasm and exploring your own sexuality or or is the sin the likeit's kind of like what you were talking about Holly which is I tried to masturbate but I couldn't because thenall of my thoughts and all of my feelings and all of my guilt. It's like Adam and Eve. Is the sin eating of thefruit or is it Satan coming afterwards and saying hide and then they hide andthey they disconnect themsel from God? Um so is the masturbation a sin or is itthe shame around your sexuality that's the sin? That's a really interesting point andjust to kind of I don't know you make me think about this train of thought. So, ascenario of me in my past, let's take high school me. And I'm sitting in classor I'm walking home or doing something and I see something that makes me havethis reaction, right? this psychological drive for arousal, this this desire toact out, you know, to masturbate and to even objectify and fantasize aboutwhatever I saw that was so intrig intriguing for me. Um, you know, and andso I go home and immediately I'm having all this mixture of emotions and thoughts. I'm thinking, "Oh, man, soattractive." Or whatever it is is racing through my mind. I've got chemicals. I've got hormones that are pumpingthrough my veins and I've got physical reactions going on as a man. Um, butI've also got all these things that have been drilled into me as a youth and nowas a teenager thinking, well, this is bad. If I do this, I'm going to be a bad person. And that shame that you bring upis actually like that's such a powerful concept because I think in hindsight Ihave so much more compassion for teenager Corey because adult Corey realizes and recognizes that I am who Iam. And I guess the reason I bring that up is when I forget who I am and I sitthere and I start thinking, oh man, like I'm this horrible scumbag. I'm this dirty pervert. all these other emotionsthat shame me. It's compounding that desire to act out. Not so much I'mexperiencing a psychological urge of, "Ooh, I'm aroused and kind of like scratching at a scab or at an itch,right?" Um, but now I'm sitting here thinking to myself like, "Oh my gosh, I hate these emotions I'm feeling. I justwish I could get away from them somehow." And it's interesting because throughout my addiction, I developed ahuge self-medication wash, rinse, repeat protocol where Iwould go in and I'd be feeling like a dirt bag and I'd be feeling so horrible for the way that I felt and I wouldstart white knuckling or I would do whatever I could to avoid the behavior, right? the eating the apple or eatingthe fruit or whatever it is that made me feel that relief, but I labeled it asbeing inappropriate and bad and wrong. And those emotions of wanting to getaway from it, it turned into that coping mechanism. And so I would find myself breaking, sneaking down into thebasement, getting onto the computer, staring at pornography, masturbating.Cy, all the while that you're kind of breaking that and doing that risky behavior, you're getting physicalchemicals released. You're getting adrenaline. Exactly. You're getting all kinds of dopaminebecause of the the sinning part of it because so it's like, oh, this is so allall this this stuff is firing off. Yeah. And it's making it much more powerfuland much more likely for you to act out. If I'm honest with myself too, it wasvery exciting to be sinning as well. Yeah, the the Yes. Um,away with it kind of. Yeah, exactly. The can I get away with this? Is anyone going to walk around the corner? Is anyone going to see me? Youknow, who's going to find out? All that. That's very honest. Yeah. And it's it'strue for for most people stuck in that that cycle that you're talking about.But then I'm in recovery now. And you know, we have a definition of sobriety, which is no sex with self, no sex withothers except for my marital partner, right? And it's interesting cuz I don'tknow, you guys bringing up this idea of shame and how it kind of compounds with lust. I mean, that that that is thereason behind this big question for me is is there such a thing as healthy masturbation? I my my personal belief isthat yes, there is. Um but um what I'mstarting to see is that like the lust behind the drive is perhapsnot the sole culprit for it being quote unquote wrong if that makes sense.So yeah. So so that what is what's another culprit?I think that shame um and fear, doubt, wanting a desire toescape those emotions um and wanting to use my body as amedical escape, you know, or a medicating escape. Um Ithink that that is definitely some part of it. So,Tyler, thoughts? Yeah. No, I so so this is uh everyone'sgoing to have their own thought there. Again, what I what I'd challenge people to think about instead of either good orbad or right or wrong, change the change the the word to is this effective, youknow, and based off of what we know. And the truth is is that there is in in the Christian faith, there is a law ofchastity, which is that we only have sex with our partners to whom we're married to. And we we're asked by God to dothat. And um but I think where we go wrong is is that we think we're bad orgood or bad or right or wrong instead of just saying, "Well, why would that be a commandment?" Like what is what is thereason for that and why would I want to pursue living that way? Because if I'mdoing it just because I'm compelled to, then that's you're you're a Pharisee or a Sadducee. There's no reason to do it.But if I understood my reasons why, so here's where I stand on it for myself is that I I don't believe that masturbationis healthy for me, like I I don't masturbate. I don't see a reason to. I Idon't want to be attached to having to cope that way with my life. I don't want to feel like I'm attaching myself tomyself when I believe those powers are to be used within the balance of my marriage. Um,now that's not for me to dictate to everybody else what they want to believe, but that just happens to bewhat I think is effective for me. Um, especially in the context of understanding that I'm in my own processof recovery where I am trying to live a process of continued um, victory overlust, right? And and I think if you were to be honest with yourself, most of uswhen we go to masturbate, it's not like we just go and physic physiologically have an experience whereby you get anerection and then you have an ejaculation. There's also some type of a mental process that's going on there. Yeah. And and we should be we should belooking at that inside of ourselves and saying, is this effective? Is this going to help me towards my greater goals asto who I want to become and what kind of help I want and is it going to help me in the context of my relationships or isthis going to draw me further away from the things that are important to me? But uh but is but Tyler is there spacefor that? Like is there actual space for maybe this is effective is you know it'skind of what Holly Holly was talking about. Right. Right. Well, and I think that that's that's what I'm saying is like Ithink that that's got to be a question that each individual has to ask for themselves and come to their own answersfor instead of just some big blanket statement that you're a sinner and you're terrible. Like let's be honest,like every one of us as kids except for it sounds like Holly probably experimented with masturbation.I think a lot of experiences that led up to that. It's not because I was perfect. I think there was a lot of shaming surearound being naked and rigidity and sure yeah all that stuffand that wasn't healthy per se because what it did is it fueled all of that rigid shame that we're talking about allthe belief that I'm bad or whatever but you know all of us probably experiment with that. I'm not I'm not so foolish asto think that I with as a father of four daughters don't have my daughters also in the process of growing and maturingbeing curious about this and probably experimenting with it and if I'm going to go to them and say you're bad nopethat's terrible you're a sinner like that's that's not going to be very effective but if I can step in with aconversation with my daughters and say hey wow like tell me what you're getting out of this and tell me how this helpsyou and let's let's talk about let's talk about why there might be some commandments around this beautiful powerthat you have, you know. Um, that's that's going to be a that's going to be a less judgmental way to have thatconversation. But Tyler, if there's if there's black and white like like the white book'sdefinition of sobriety, I I I know where Corey's getting it from. I know what itis. And and I know that and it's interesting like what what is the line ofmasturbation? Is it ejaculation? Is it, you know, I've heard I've heard the termhalfturbaiting many times. Oh yeah, I have to bait it in the shower. Should I tell my wife? Should I not tell my wife?Should I I have shame about it. Should I call my sponsor because I have to baited? Like what what is this like?Um, you know, I I know the white book's definition. I know the church's stance on masturbation.And there's very, yes, you can say you you can say like, yeah, like I want mydaughters to explore and this and that. But if your tone is in the end, no, you better not, that is a sin, then thereisn't space for any bit of, you know, it's really Fin talks about it and andshe's she's a kind of a polarizing figure because she's a member of the church, yet she talks openly abouthealthy sexuality and exploration. Um, how do those fit together, right? Wheredo those fit together? And that's what Valerie and I were talking about on that episode as well. Um,uh, it's a great question, right? How do you reconcile? And Holly, you're saying you kind of have more of a nuanced view?And if you could speak to that a little bit, what is your nuanced view now?So, um I guess for some context, like I have some friends and family members whoare women who are members of the church who did masturbate before marriage and they seem to integrate so much betterinto their sex. No, really, right. Oh my gosh.I like they're they're not in hell right now. Yeah. And so I guess my my view is that like Ithink that it can play a role. And I guess like the question is is like is that helpingpremarital? I think that's a little bit uh a little bit harder to define for me, but like in within marriage. I guess itjust depends like is that being used to help like help learn and understand so you can share or is that being used tolike I I'm I'm I'm an anger relapse like a revenge relapse. Excellent. You know, point. Yes. thethere I don't know there was a podcast you listened to that talked about all the different kinds of relapses like the different motivations. So I guess likemaybe perhaps like the intent of your heart, but also I feel like that's one of those things where is that getting into slipping into moral relativism? Isthat kind of going into well so long as I feel like it's within my integrity, I can do whatever I want. You know, that'swhere it's unclear to me. But it come it comes down to real rigorous honesty with yourself because God lookketh it on your heart. Um, so ifyour intent of your heart is to be more self-realized and understand yourself more as a sexual being so that you canbe more connected to your partner and like is this a sin or if my intention ormotivation is to numb out is to is to act out so my partner will get hurt isto you know is to just go use somebody and somebody's body or image just for myown selfish pleasure like that that's a to we're talking about two very different things, right?And I think it's interesting too because I I think a lot about this conversation we're having um because Holly and I, youknow, we both as teenagers faced that fork in the road where I took the pathof I'm going to act out. I'm going to be promiscuous. I'm going to sneak and lieand do this. And my wife took the path of I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna, youknow, and I don't want to put words in my wife's mouth, but I think that maybe she can correct me if I'm wrong, but,you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna repress this aspect of myself or at least suppress it in a in a way that is thatis going to help me to avoid it and put it off till later. Um,it's so kind of like the two extremes, Corey. Exactly. Exactly. And it's interestingbecause I I mean Holly and I, we've both come out and talked about this publicly, so I have no problem sharing it on thepodcast. Seven years. That's how long we've been married. And we had the opportunity for both of us toexperience sexual pleasure for the first time, like what within the last sixmonths. And that's been after a tremendous amount of emotional therapy of we didthis thing called internal family systems where Holly was able to kind of go back. I love I love IFS. It's greatand being able to go back and address past uh situations and things and beingable to experience the healing. We um we read a book and they were not ashamed.Fantastic book. Um, and uh, you know, I I learned for the first time like, well,what do you mean it's it's not all about intercourse.I had this like sexual education, Tyler Brennan, was pornography. I grew upwhere we didn't talk about sex. We said, "We'll have the talk later." They kicked it down the road. I mean, I I wasn'tshown, and I'm not trying to throw my parents under the bus. I love my parents and they have their own personal thingsthat they're struggling with, but I was not shown a intimate loving relationshipvery often. Hardly ever, you know, between my parents. And so, well, and that's the fascinating thing actually is that like while his parentshave had a really I'll just say a difficult sexual relationship and leave it there. My parents apparently have a really good one, but there was such arigidity around privacy. like I didn't know the names of my genitalia until I was in college andum uh you know other things like that like that that didn't transfer onto mereadily. Yes. Have a good sexual relationship just because of the way that it was handledand being taught the duty frame. Yes. All of that has kind of culminated inboth of us kind of limping together for six years, six and a half years. And in the seventh year of our marriage, we'resitting here realizing and uncovering all these faulty core beliefs and thinking to ourselves, "Wow, like we'refinally able to experience this blissful connection." And you know, it's a wonderful and beautiful thing. And it'sthe coolest thing for me. I've been able to reach a point where we're in Hawaii visiting my in-laws.And in Hawaii, you're going to see lots of triggering things as an as a sex addict. and we're sitting there in linefor Matsumoto Shave Ice or we're on the beach or whatever it is and I'm seeing legs, curves, boobs, all these things.And it's the craziest thing because in hindsight, we're sitting there towards I think the second to last day and my wife's like, "How are you doing?" I'mlike, "This is so weird. I'm not struggling right now. I'm not feelingthis crazy overwhelming presence of," oh my gosh, there's boobs everywhere, honey.you know, um I'm I'm sitting here and I'm not picking up on that lust that Iwas picking up on all the time. And, you know, circling back to the conversation about, you know, lust in regards tomasturbation, you know, I'm starting to see howsex is like food. I don't remember where I heard that, but it's like food. And you know,there's Yeah. And there's going to be times where I mean here here's anotherthing kind of you know challenging perhaps my own question. Holly and I have had experiences now where I meanwe've got three kids. We don't have all the time we used to have as newlyweds. And there's times where Holly's superhungry and there's times where I'm super hungry. And I mean, there's times where I'm gonna eat more, Holly's going to eatmore, you know, and h speaking metaphorically about sex, of course, and about, you know,so if if we if we replace hungry with horny, that would work. Yes.Right. So, you know, I'm sitting here and if I'm super horny and my wife's like, I'm not really feeling it. I'm notreally in the mood. Um, you know, I have an opportunity as an addict to turn backon my ways and consume myself secretly or to just be honest and frank with mywife and say, "Well, I'm super horny right now." And I can ask her vulnerably because I'm now in this situation as amarried man where I can turn to her and say, "I'm really desiring sexual releaseright now. would you be comfortable helping me with this or would you bemore okay with me, you know, stimulating myself? You know, and that's I don't know.That's a new thing. I don't know exactly how I feel about that.Yeah. I think I think I think Brandon and I are going to disagree on this a little bit, but if we're using the uh ifwe're using the analogy of eating, we also know that just because you're hungry doesn't mean you should alwayseat. And we also know that if you for good physical health, it's actually really healthy for the body to fast. Anduh and and so I think that there's there's there's some element of beingable to use it in the context of relationship. So if you go to your wife and say, "Hey, that's how I'm feeling." And she's like, "Okay, I'm in." Likethat's great. There's still a relational component of that that allows it to bewhat I think it was intended for. If you're looking at it from a Christian place, which is why we've been commanded to use it with our partners, she may notbe totally invested, but because you guys have a full relationship, she can lean herself in. Or if she doesn't, it'sokay for me to not eat too for a minute. Like that's okay, too.Yeah. I I don't I don't totally disagree with that. Um but I it's it'sinteresting like we could do three five more episodes on just what you justtalked about Corey because um I I you know Finlay and F when we interviewed her on betrayed addictedexpert she said um the biggest issue with the whole pornography addiction thing and is the the secrecy and and andthe you know the lack of transparency and authenticity. So, if you're reallywanting to have sex and you go to Holly and you say, "I'm just feeling it. Like,I'm my body. I'm horny. I just want to have sex." Um, that to me is a veryhealthy thing to do. And and so, first and foremost, you're being open and you're being authentic and you're beingtransparent. Now, Holly, all of your triggers might come up around sex, like, okay, like I it's my duty or gh likepressure. I don't want pressure. Yuck. I don't want that. And and so then your stuff comes into play of Wow, Iappreciate Cory's Corey being honest. I I like that. But I have my own boundaries and I have my own stuff. Andso so like I'm going to feel this out for me and how I feel and whether I wantto engage or not want to engage. And no is is always an okay answer, right? And to Corey, no is always an okay answer,but it doesn't take away his horniness. It's still there. Sure. Right. And when you say no, Holly, itdoesn't just switch off. So then what? Right. And and I do thinkI do think it's really healthy in a in a in a relationship for and and and foryour masculinity, Corey, is to be able to to sit in that discomfort and be okaysitting through that discomfort. Like I don't need to have sex. I don't need to get a release right now. I don't Shesaid no. So boom, I'm in the back room automatically. like that that doesn't have to happen right then, right?Yeah, very much agreed. But if you did go masturbate, like at least you're owning it with her, like,hey, that like if if you're really not feeling it, I might go masturbate in the bathroom. You're being honest about it.You're being open about it and you're maintaining trust in the relationship there, right? And that tome is far more important than the discussion on whether you should masturbate or not. your yourrelationship will will stay intact and you'll be able to work through okay likewhat does that mean that you went and masturbated like how do I you know Holly you'd be thinking how do I feel what howdoes this work for us in our marriage let's do that work as opposed to just nope it's black and white and this ishow it is right you guys understand what I'm saying I do so I guess like what I'm curious tounderstand is are you just saying that like perhaps that's something for individual couples to kind of work outin their own dynamic. Um, as opposed to maybe as opposed to like turning to anan authority source like your church or you know, wherever to kind of have somebody outside of your relationshipkind of tell you what is or isn't appropriate. That's what I believe. Yes. I think I think what Brandon's Oh, goahead, Brandon. I cut you off. That's what I believe because I think everybody's kind of like you guys are agreat example. You come to the table with different sexual development and where you're at. And so for for youHolly, it might be good to explore and try to figure out how to overcome that shame so that you know if it's beenseven years where pleasure hasn't really been there, then there needs to be some work going on there. So it could bereally good for you to to engage with that whereas somebody else maybe not right. So, so that is what you just saidis what I do believe is a and and if you both as individuals can come to the table and say, "Hey, this is what I'mworking through and this is who I am and this is where I'm at." Then you're connected and you see each other and yousupport each other and you're honest with each other. That to me is is the work of a healthy relationship.And I and I would just add to that that uh you know Brandon was talking about one layer which is I think the the bigmassive layer here is in context of relationship right so that is somethingthat you guys need to talk about in as a couple with your feelings with your thoughts with your worries with yourdoubts and then also as individuals where you know honestly like I from myperspective if I'm in this spot where I'm horny and my wife doesn't want to have sex and I I can't stand the thoughtof not getting a release. That doesn't sound that healthy to me to go masturbate, right? Like that's like Ifor me personally, I'm going to feel like I'm moving myself back towards the slavery that I was trying to climb outof. And so that's that's why I would say I I'm okay. okay being hungry if I need tobe hungry because I would because I'd rather have in the context of my relationship, I'd rather have safety andtrust and honesty and the ability to have, you know, those discussions and for my wife to know that I prefer and Ivalue my sexual experience to be with her like um and and I she's okay to thenbe on her side of things and to go, okay, she's going to do her own side of the work. Yeah. Andyou you bring up this really cool point that maybe I want to try and use uh assort of a segue into a secondary question and that's in regards to like teaching kids, right? So like we've beentalking a lot about married couples, right? But as a single person, you know,how do you handle your sexuality? And I I totally agree with you, Tyler and Brandon, when you guys talk about, youknow, it's okay to not experience sexual release, you know, and some level of abstinence is appropriate. I mean, a lotof the things that Holly and I have learned that have helped us uncover a lot of the sexual healthiness in ourmarriage happened because of a 90-day sex fast, right? Yeah. That's where a lot of this was all kickstarted. But, um, you know, it'sreally cool because I I do agree. I think that, you know, it's healthy for me as a husband to be honest andtransparent with my wife if I'm going to go masturbate. I think it's even more so healthy or more mature or more sexuallydeveloped for me to be able to hold my own and say, "It's okay for me to sit in this discomfort and maybe use thatdiscomfort to ask myself some key questions of, okay, well, is there anything I can do to help my wife get inthe mood? Can I enrich my connection with her through some Sorry,that's okay. Can I enrich this connection with my wife through some, you know, romancingand things like that, you know, and maybe something will come of it? Um, and if it doesn't, that's okay, too, becausemy worth as an individual is not just because I can get off sexually with mywife or not. Um, but transitioning away from, you know, married couples, um, orreally just committed relationships when it comes to the broader audience. Um,you know, what do I teach my children in a healthy, sexually developed way? Youknow, Tyler, you mentioned you have four daughters and, you know, having that conversation with them. I guess I'mcurious what your guys' thoughts are when it comes to teaching children, teaching youth, teaching, you know,young single adults, all these different brackets of people about is there such athing as healthy masturbation? I mean, here's here's an example. Um, let's say I'm a member of a religious structurethat's pretty rigid about this, the member of I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, but I'mhomosexual. And so my I don't really fit the cookie cutter mold, right? Or maybe, you know,I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a woman who's, you know, 35, 36 years old and no one wantsto marry me, you know, uh, right? What about those situations? So, I'mcurious what your guys professional brains have to say about this. You guys are stretching us today.Um, yeah. I I I think Corey, I just want to invite you back on right now becauseum we're we're going to run low on time and you're busting open a can that we could we could do many episodes on.Um but and and so like where to start? I I think I I I want to start with the kidquestion and just answer that because it it actually pertains to our whole discussion that we've had today, whichis I have four kids and if my four kids are touching their genitals and feelingcertain feelings and maybe you know when maybe they start um fully masturbatingand in if they do if they're kind of secretive about it or whatever and then I I have a sit down meeting and I say,"Hey, masturbation is bad. Don't masturbate. It's bad. It's bad. It's bad. Don't masturbate. But then they'relike touching their self and they're experiencing sexual feelings. You can see the problem starting to develophere, right? What's the problem? Sex is equated with secrecy. Yeah.Shame. Yeah. So, it's this thing that feels really, really good and is like the most exciting thing in life. I'm a14-year-old boy who has an erection all the time, Dad. Like, what? And I'm not supposed to have one. So, so, butthere's dad like, "Nope." like don't have an erection. And so so like I Istart to formulate those type of things. The the the much better way is to be sexpositive is to teach your kids how to accept themselves, accept who they are.And it's through that acceptance that you teach that you can then start to give them power to choose what they wantin their life to manage those behaviors. When you just teach them self-rejection,it leads to what you were talking about earlier, Corey, of like, man, there's more danger to it. There's more sin toit. There's more and I'm rejecting myself all along, but I'm getting off at the same time. Creates just just shamestorms, right? And and so, yeah, to you know, it's interesting like you'll see your kidstouch themselves like you might get curious with them like, "Oh, you just, you know, you're playing with your penis. What's that like? How does thatfeel?" Feels pretty good, doesn't it, buddy? Yeah. Yeah. I know. And And it's weird to have that type of conversation with your kid. Itfeels a little odd, right? Well, why why does it feel odd, though? I mean, I'm going to challenge thatbecause I've been told that it's odd, right? Yes. Excellent. That's I'm just perpetuating the problemthat I was. Yes. if I'm going to have that attitude even worse girls because I feel like thethe like for boys it's more acceptable for them to touch themselves but for girls you know for a variety ofdifferent reasons oh you could get a UTI or whatever like like I I know so many women who werelike me who don't know the correct names of their vulva they don't they don't know those things I think everything down there has the same name and I thinkit's even worse like where it's bad for for men and boys it's even worse for women just in a differentYep. And yet yet girls masturbate like all the time. And and and they go throughsexual development like boys. What do you know? You know, yet yet they're it's more judged. It'smore shameful. They shouldn't have those feelings. It shouldn't be there, right? So they're really attacked. So asparents, it's our job to say, "No, like it's okay. You're safe. You're you're you are who you are." and andonce I create that safety with my kids, then we can have certain discussions about certain boundaries and things likethat. So, that's a quick answer to your question, Cory. I think I think what that does is itopens up the doors of communication so that there's the ability to have influence with your children when youcan normalize that what they're feeling and what they're doing is is something that comes from curiosity because theyare human beings. And and I want to give I want to I want to give your church just a little credit. I mean, we'repretty hard on them sometimes, but if you look at the first strength of youth manual, like when they talk about sexualexpression, they the very first line in there says that sexual expression is ordained of God.So, so you know, if we if we were to approach that with our children that yeah, like they are sexual beings and itis ordained of God and and I like with the way that I teach try to teach my children, I try to be on their team withthe fact that they are curious, that they are sexual beings and that there is a power there that has been outlined byGod as to some appropriate ways to express it. not because they're bad or good, but because it's going to beenriching in their life if it's used properly. It also has the ability to be,you know, cause a lot of pain in their life if they if they use it improperly.And so, the only way that you can have that influence is if your kids trust you to know that you understand what they're going through. And that's what where Ithink Brandon's going with the sex positive thing is Yeah. I I just think using shame, hellfire, and brimstone around sexualitythat that needs to go in the past. that needs to go in the way we were raised and not the way our children are raisedanymore, right? So, um, you guys are awesome. Thank youso much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Um, you guys, if you liked this episode, then please go over to TherapyBrothers and and subscribe to this podcast, um, the Real Talk Recovery podcast, we would love to see you overthere. And please, please share it and leave a review. So, thanks guys. We'll see you. Thanks.[Music][Applause] Heat. Hey, Heat.[Music] [Applause][Music]Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.Oh yeah. [Music][Applause] [Music] Hey,[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]hey, hey. [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music][Applause] [Music] [Applause]Heat. Heat.Heat. Heat.[Applause] [Music]