Our relationship feels like a yo-yo after betrayal. How long do I keep doing this?

Intro

0:00Our

0:06relationship feels like a yo-yo after betrayal. How long do I keep doing this?

0:13It's a good one today, Brandon. Yeah. Um,

0:19should be interesting to dive into this. So, um, how are you doing, Tyler?

0:25I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. Nice. Yes. Got my got one of my daughters coming home from her summer

0:31job in Alaska today. So, I got to go pick her up from the airport and hear all of her stories. So, I'm excited

0:36about that. So, is Lex still up there? What's Lexi? Yeah, Lexi's staying for a little

0:41bit longer there. They have one more kind of peak season up there way late in the season and she's staying as long as

0:47she can to help them before her college starts again. So, nice. But Brinley Brinley's already missed

0:52some high school stuff. So, she's gonna be kind of right behind the eightball when she gets when she lands today. So,

0:59yeah. What were they doing up there? Like wrestling grizzly bears or something? No, it's just uh it's it's basically

1:05just a fishing lodge that's open through the summer for all the you know, the salmon and the rainbow trout in the river and stuff. And uh they just do all

1:12the hospitality stuff and then the odds and ends jobs. So, they do the housekeeping, they do the restaurant

1:17work, and then they also kind of help out with like side projects around the house during

1:22the daytime. So just just kind of straight grunt labor. It's great for them. Hey, have you ever heard of a pizzly

1:29bear? Oh, no. I I don't even I don't know if I want the explanation. No, no, this is actually a real thing.

1:36I'm not making anything up. Okay. Like, you can Google it. It's a a grizzly and a polar bear mate with each

1:42other and they create a pizzly bear and it's like the meanest thing ever. I've heard that sometimes people call those

1:50um some people call those spirit bears as well. Oh, a a spirit bear that will rip your

1:56head off. Apparently, okay, nice. Well, maybe we should go up

2:02to like wherever those are. We should see one in the wild. Put that Put that on the bucket list.

2:08Let's go do that. There we go. The top 100. Yeah. Anyways, let's get down to business here with Jordan. Jordan,

2:14welcome to the show. Thank you. It's good to be here. Um, from Pizzly Bears to talking about

2:20uh relation. So, yeah. Um, Jordan, if you could give a little bit of background, tell us what's been

2:26going on with you and we'll just go from there. Sure. Um, so I'll I'll just give you

2:33kind of the cliffnotee version of everything. Uh, so my wife and I have been together for 12 years now. Um,

2:41married for seven years and we have two kids together. It's it's been kind of up and down um through our whole

2:48relationship. Um we've just had a lot of a lot of uh struggles. Um but we've

2:57never you know we've always uh we've always maintained um

3:03you know like that that fidelity aspect of of marriage. And we've never we've never you know done anything to betray

3:08each other. and and uh uh a couple a few years ago we moved back home and u my

3:16brother and I actually decided to to start our own business. Um and

3:21uh man, I'm trying I'm trying to just keep it short here. I know we're limited on time, so I'm trying

3:26You're okay, Jordan. Just keep it going. Yeah. So, um we started our own business

3:32and my wife works as a nurse. Uh and so while I was growing my business, she

3:37started taking on travel assignments um all over the United States and you know while we had two kids at home and so I

3:43took care of most of those duties while she traveled and and so over time she

3:49started taking assignments closer to home and uh

3:55I actually worked as a nurse as well. And so whenever I started my own business, I decided to take a step back

4:00from nursing. And um part of me um became resentful um for that and I was just almost

4:07jealous of the life path that Aaron was on. Um I

4:13think I held a lot of resentment in my heart and so uh

4:19over time it just it got progressively worse. Aaron and I uh we stopped

4:25communicating as much. the intimacy kind of was lacking and and uh on one of her

4:31travel assignments, she decided to step out of our marriage and um ended up

4:38talking to somebody that she worked with and without giving too many details got a physical and uh I found out um

4:49back in February so it's been about six months now and

4:54Uh through the process of finding out there was a lot of trickle truthing I

5:00guess you could call it um I got some details um but they were they weren't it

5:07wasn't the whole truth and um through more of like a deep dive I I

5:13found out more and more over time and then I questioned her and and uh got

5:18more truth and then and then some more lying and then more truth and um over

5:24the last six months. I I feel like I've got the whole truth. But um what I kind

5:29of filled you guys in on was, you know, I feel like when when when I found out about a month in, uh I started doing

5:36work on myself and I started listening to podcasts and

5:41journaling and doing a lot of praying and just trying to figure out

5:48like what the root cause of the problem was. And I I realized that there was

5:54deeper issues in our marriage than than I was I wanted to see. And so I I

6:01realized that while there's no excuse for stepping out of the marriage and and infidelity,

6:07um you know, part of part of the issue lied with me. And so I decided to look at

6:15myself in the mirror and point the finger back at myself and say, "Okay, what what what what what did I do

6:21that didn't allow her to feel loved the way she needed to feel loved?" And ultimately led to all of this happening.

6:29And so, uh, I realized that again, I was resentful and not communicating with

6:35her, not loving her the way she needed to be loved, um, not making her feel that way. And so I I admitted that to

6:44her. I apologized and um you know I told her there was no excuse obviously for what happened but I was willing to take

6:50accountability for my my you know my lack of action I guess you

6:58could call it in our marriage. And so I felt like I was doing a ton of work and

7:04over this time um I feel like she hasn't been doing the

7:10work necessary to help herself and I I think it comes from a place of guilt

7:17and shame and we've we've had that discussion and

7:22so but but through all of this I know like I said a couple of your podcasts ago you talk about when when the

7:29betrayed partner can come into uh conversation and hold space um for

7:35having healthy conversation about what happened and um um and doing it doing it from a place of

7:42like love like the way I' I've tried to do over and over. Um it's almost it's an

7:48invitation. It's an invitation to connect and and that's really what I've done. And I actually had her listen to

7:54that podcast as well. And uh it just seems like every time I I try to connect

8:01with her and to talk through things and whether it's just like whether it's just like her being there for me, like not

8:09really even saying anything, but just like showing up and being there and like allowing me to feel my feelings. Like

8:15that doesn't happen. And she just stonewall. She just doesn't talk. She

8:21looks down. and she looks like she's ashamed. And uh every time this happens, I take a step backwards, I feel like the

8:28harder I try, like like the more I try, it just

8:33doesn't doesn't do any good. And uh and it it started to make me feel like she

False Closeness

8:42almost doesn't care to work on herself. And so I brought this up to her and uh

8:49she told me that she uh like this is like a week ago told me that she was

8:54going to counseling and she started therapy and you know I asked her I was

9:00like so why didn't you tell me that like that hearing that would have helped me you know it would have showed me that

9:06you cared to do something and she told me that you know it's because it was for herself and that she didn't she didn't

9:14need me to know um because she didn't want me questioning who it was with or

9:21uh or things like that or um you know if it didn't work out with

9:26this therapist like why didn't it work out and I said those are you know I said those are thoughts that you're putting in your own head like I'm not I'm not

9:32here to question you. I'm not here to ask you who it's with. like I I don't I

9:37don't feel like I've I've put those thoughts in your head and and uh

9:43um I and and I told her I understand like I totally understand the logic behind

9:48that. Like I feel like she's coming from a place of like as soon as I hear that

9:54I'm going to be hopeful or asking a million questions. And I mean I see the

9:59logic in that. And I know I'm calling it kind of all over the place, but that's really the background of like where we're at now and just to try to bring

10:04you guys up to speed. It's it's a lot to process and I'm trying to keep it short, but that's really what's going on with

10:10us. And so again, now I'm in this place where I just I feel like it's it's hard

10:15for me to do the work and show up in our marriage. Um, giving her cuz one more

10:24thing really quickly. Whenever whenever all this started, I really showed up. I was so present and and I you know I

Fear Response

10:30pursued her every day and had good conversations with her and and she almost like did show up in a way. Um but

10:35she she did actually listen and I don't know if that's because all this was more fresh and she didn't really have time to

10:41process her feelings. I feel like now maybe she's processed her feelings a little more and that's why she she feels

10:47more guilt and shame. Maybe she allowed me to to feel my feelings and kind of buried hers for a while and now that I'm

10:54doing better. or she's, you know, maybe bringing bringing her feelings up to the surface and now she's feeling all of it.

11:01I don't really know. Um but but I just I'm I'm just having a hard time

11:06continuing to show up in our marriage and and uh and she feels that. Um and so

11:14we're almost to a point now where since I'm having a hard time showing up for her, she's having a hard time showing up

11:21for me. It's hard for her to continue to like like give me what I need to feel loved

11:28in this marriage. And and we're in this we're in this constant battle now almost where it's like it's just it's a cycle.

11:35It's where I show up, nothing works. I step back and I feel like I'm just going

11:40to, you know, not try as much anymore. And she feels that. So it's she doesn't want to show up necessarily, you know,

11:47either. I guess I don't know if that makes sense, but it's kind of where we're at. Okay. I think it makes sense to me. I

11:54just want to make sure I understand it uh in a really succinct way of what I think you're saying is things blew up.

12:01After they blew up, you started looking around and part of you started looking in the mirror and saying, "I got to figure some of my stuff out and I'm

12:08willing to take accountability for whatever my parts were in a in the relationship even though I'm not going to take ownership for her choices."

12:14Totally. That all sounds really actually really good to me. Solid recovery work right off the bat.

12:20Part of my recovery work is is that I want to try to show up as the kind of partner that can be honest, empathetic,

12:29lean in, even though sometimes that's hard for me. I'm going to do that. And then when I do that, I'm met from a

12:35place of stonewalling. Totally. And then that stonewalling causes me to have a snapback reaction where then I

Grief Needed

12:41pull away. And then when I pull away, it's like it's like it's almost like you guys are playing a game of like shame

12:48tag. where whoever's in the shame is the one that's going to pull away the the furthest. And then when and then when it

12:55gets so far away that you guys are like looking at maybe the relationship breaking, then one or both of you, sounds like you a lot of the time will

13:02then reapproach it because you don't want to risk what could happen if you both stay at the standstill of not

13:07having any connection. Totally. That's pretty pretty close. Yeah, it is. It is.

13:15Okay. And that's hard because it's like it's that snap back and forth. It's like

13:21it feels like it can be it's it's often part of the process of trying to rebuild safety and trust in a relationship to

13:28have a little bit of that happening. And at the same time, it's like it's taking a big block of ice and dropping it on

13:34the concrete. And it's and at first it just makes a little crack and then it makes a bigger cracks and then makes

13:39starts taking chips. And eventually once you drop it, finally it kind of like shatters and explodes. And it's like a

13:45race of how how quickly can we start to repair things individually and between

13:50us before we've dropped it too many times and it's it's going to be really hard to put it back together.

13:56Yeah. And I'm starting to feel like those those stress cracks. I guess you could say metaphorically I'm starting to feel that like where it's it's getting

14:03ready to come apart and so that's where I'm at now. What uh you say like you've kind of

14:10turned inward and done your own work? Yeah. Um what have you like what have you discovered? What what work have you

Honesty or Betrayal

14:16done? What like Yeah. What what has helped you?

14:22Um, so yeah, to back up, uh, when all of

14:27this started, we started going to, uh, marriage counseling like right away, like couple days after it happened. Um,

14:35we actually were going on a trip to Hawaii and then had to go to a wedding in Vegas like that week. And so I was

14:40like, I'm not going. I'm not going. And then so then I was like, okay, the only way we're going is if we start going to

14:46therapy and trying to like do something before we go because I'm not I'm not going now. And so we we started going to therapy um communicating with a

14:54therapist and and uh having discussions there and it was kind of helping. Um but

14:59I think through that process I was trying to rely on my wife to make me

15:04feel better through all of this through all of this. And when it and it was only

15:10making it worse for me. I only started falling into a deeper depression. I started having intrusive thoughts about hurting myself and you know it just it

15:17got and it's like I never as you know to be completely brutally honest with you guys like as a parent with two kids like

15:25that's the last I always thought that was something I would never think. Um

15:31and then it did that thought happened and I'm like man this would just be so much easier if if I just didn't feel

15:37this pain anymore. And so I was like, I got to do. And so I immediately was

15:43like, I need help. So called, got a primary care doctor, got

15:48some medicine. So that helped some, helped me just feel better. Um, but I realized like there was a lot more work

15:53that needed to be done. And and I couldn't rely on

15:58my wife when she's the one who stepped out of the marriage to make me feel better even though I was trying so hard.

16:04So So um, that's when I started like looking at like what my triggers

16:10were and I realized that some of the music I was listening to I would subconsciously like listen to the lyrics

Reward for Truth

16:16and um it was very triggering for me. So I started listening to more uplifting music, more positive music, whatever

16:22genre I wanted to but like things that had like healthy lyrics. Um that was like the first thing I did and then um

16:30started going back to church. That was really nice. Um took the kids to church and that was that was great. Um, just me

16:36personally, I'm a Christian, so I found that as a a good source of strength for me and spent a lot of time in prayer.

16:42Um, and then and then through uh through all of that, I you know, I started

16:49realizing that like it wasn't working as well. That was maybe a couple weeks later, like just the music thing. I mean, like I was like, okay, the m the

16:55songs are kind of getting old. Let's let's let's see what else I can do to kind of help myself. And so that's when

17:01I was like, hey, I like podcasts. Let's start listening to podcasts. and I found I found you guys and a couple others and

17:06I've I've loved loved your guys' podcast and so that helped me a lot kind of just um take a different approach and and um

17:15a healthy approach to all of this and um listen to several topics on on just

17:20infidelity whether it's for the betraying partner for whether it's for the betrayed partner just getting like

17:26the psychology behind all of it and understanding more of like maybe why my wife did what she did that helped uh and

17:33And then again like like that just there's there's two parts of there's there's two sides and um you

17:40know it's it's I'm I'm part of that equation and and uh and so you know

17:46again I'm never taking accountability for what happened. Um I I'm I'm never going to blame myself for that. But I

17:52did realize like hey maybe there's something that I wasn't doing in our marriage that that I wasn't showing up

17:57in a way that I needed to. And so, um, and so those are really the things that I've done over the last 6 months to help

Skipping Healing

18:03myself. Um, is Jordan, is this is a random question, but

18:10yeah. Is divorce an option? Um, immediately absolutely it was. Uh,

18:17and then I told myself absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Um,

18:24and anymore I I don't know. I don't want it to be. I don't want it to be. Um, like

18:32there's no option B. I don't know. Like there's no there's nobody else and that's not what you're asking, but like

18:38there's it's either, you know, we're a family unit or it's

18:43just I live for my kids. That's really like my options. I don't really know if I would call divorce an option, but I

18:51know that at this point in time, I'm tired of hurting and I just want to protect myself as much as possible.

18:58Um, what let's put the the two things that I asked you together and see if

19:05Yeah. So, so I asked you basically what are you doing with your own work

19:11and and is divorce an option? What do those what do those two questions have to do with each other?

19:20It's a riddle, I guess. But if you think about it, what do those two things have to do with each other?

19:30Uh, helping myself. Yeah. It's a Brandon, it's a little bit of a

19:37paradox and I don't know if this is where you're going or not. I think it is. Yeah. Um but but the the

Wedge Analogy

19:43the quest those two questions together are the more that I put my focus on trusting

19:51myself, not taking things personally, being shame resilient myself, the more

19:57risk there is that I actually outgrow my relationship and might end up needing to end that relationship. And at the same

20:05time, it's also the thing that will buy me time to keep leaning into the relationship if I choose to do that.

20:12Yeah. Because if I don't have my shame resiliency, if I'm not doing my own work, if I'm still taking things too

20:17personally, shame will always be in the driver's seat and then we'll be in this complete yo-yo game indefinitely.

20:26Yeah. Co couples will match each other's level of emotional health. And so if one

20:33person starts to thrive and do a lot of work and and those type of things, it can actually put the relationship at

20:40risk and to change. Yes. Then it's this catch 22 of like, okay,

20:46so now I need to stay unhealthy to stay in my relationship. So do I choose the relationship or do I

20:52choose myself and doing my my work and getting better? um you know and and and

21:00so and and that that friction can be an okay thing because it can call the other

“I’m Healed”

21:07partner up if they're willing to come up, but sometimes it'll actually uh do

21:13the opposite. Um, and so I I I believe I'm not an

21:18advocate for divorce and yet I believe that it's healthy for divorce to be an

21:23option for every human being because if I'm getting abused,

21:28it's better for me to say I'm not going to get abused in my relationship. Like I will walk away. I have like it's an

21:36option because my boundaries and who I am and loving myself and my purpose is

21:41more important than my relationship. um like and that's actually good for a

21:47relationship, a healthy relationship. You hear me? No, totally. It totally absolutely and

21:54that's what you know and I've approached her about that several times like you know and and uh I I know I've said

22:00almost that exact same like thing verbatim. Um like just just structuring our conversations like that like like

22:06like my my own well-being like I have to take care of myself. I have to show up

22:13for myself before I can show up for our marriage. And I've told her that several times. And the conversation we had the

22:19other night was was and and I expect the same for her too. Um, and that's what I told her the other night was like, you

Recovery Types

22:25know, I you I kind of use like a kind of an immature phrase, but I was like, you know, and I said it very calmly, but I

22:30was just, um, you know, it's like my it's almost like my compass like I can I can it's pointing true north now and I

22:37can kind of feel when things aren't going the right way and it's almost like things I didn't really recognize before

22:42I recognize now. And I can really feel that from her like things aren't just really working right now. And I told her

22:48um again kind of in a I don't know. I felt like after I said it was kind of I should have thought about the way I said

22:54it more, but I said, you know, like just I said, "Well, I guess just let me know when you're ready to to work on things."

22:59And and she was like, "Well, what does that mean?" And I said, "It means exactly what it what I what I mean it to

23:06mean. It just means I'm willing to step away to give you the space you need to work on yourself.

23:13And then if if you choose to want to be with me and and I want to be with you, then then then that's then that's it.

23:20But I'm comfortable giving you the space you need to work on yourself. And I just feel like that's really like where we're

23:28at right now. Like she just needs that space to work on herself. But when I bring that up, it's almost like I can

Forgiveness Pressure

23:35tell that she doesn't want that to be the option. Um, but I'm not really sure how to like

23:41I can't like force her to like do the work that she needs to do to help herself. Um,

23:47that's kind of just Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense at all, but yeah, it makes sense. And I think that's

23:53why what Brandon's saying is so important is that if if it's not an option, what happens if you go and

24:00invite your wife to do the change and she doesn't want to change? then then all of a sudden you're down to one less

24:06option on the table and now you got to figure out how to not resent her and be happy and not get what you were hoping for in the relationship

24:13and uh and stay. Yeah. Which is which is okay. You can do that. There's a pathway to do that.

24:19Um but but it's also but that it also limits your ability to then kind of do

24:27more invitation to the change of the system itself. Totally. And so, and that's like I

24:32think, you know, it's what's really stopping me to be completely honest with you guys. What's really stopping me from

24:39making the decision that I know is probably the right decision, which is,

24:44you know, I I don't want to call it divorce, but like just let's just say like not being around each other right now. Um, giving each other space. Really

24:52giving her the space that she needs to to work on herself. What's stopping that

24:58is, you know, we have a house together and bills and two kids and animal like

25:03dogs and it's just like I don't know how to navigate that. Like that's really the biggest struggle for me is and what keeps me up at night is it's like I

25:10don't know how how to navigate that. Um it's just

25:16there's a lot there's a lot of layers involved. Our kids are in school, so um

25:21there's just a lot of layers there. Like it's not as simple as like me and her and no responsibility except for work in

25:27an apartment. It's we have all of these bills and our children and our, you know, dogs. It's how do you how do you

25:33navigate that? How do you decide, you know, while while we're not together,

25:40separated? Um, who does what? How does that work? That's like the biggest thing for me. I

25:47think it it's it's really hard because it's it's

25:53not simple and and yet to to ask yourself,

25:59you know, you know, a lot of times there's an objective at play and there's

26:04a relationship at play and your self-respect as well. And so these three things are kind of

26:10interplaying with each other. Um and and so you were you just gave us the objective thing of like well I we have

26:17kids, we have dogs or we have you know like the objective of life is like it makes it easier to live this way but the

26:25relationship over here is like um you're not getting what you want from the

26:30relationship. Mhm. Um, so you're like, "Well, I'll meet I'll meet the objectives and then we'll kind of let the relationship continue to

26:37flounder so we can meet these objectives and all the while giving up some of your

26:42self-respect to make this work." And I think you got to ask yourself, you got to pull back and ask yourself, what are

26:48your priorities? And and also a lot of times where people

26:54get stuck is they they fool themsel where it's like, well, this is what is

26:59best for the kids. and it's not what's best for the kids. Um it just happens to be the easier

27:07thing to do right now in this moment. Um so that you can avoid the pain of the

27:12reality of where things are actually at. Yeah. Um and but but but I I say these things

27:18and it's not easy answers, Jordan. It's like you you got to really ask yourself like may maybe you do give it some time

27:26and take some space from her. Don't get divorced tomorrow. Yes. um see what happens. Let this kind

27:32of sit and see and and see where this goes before you make any real hard decisions.

27:40Um and and let these other things work themselves out as well. But if you have

27:46this thing where it's like no matter what I will stay together, then you will start to sacrifice your values and your

27:53truths and who you are again and again. And as you do your own individual work,

27:59your individual work's not going to work because on the back end of that, you are

28:04giving yourself away. You're you're showing up in fear and control versus

28:10showing up honestly um and and open about who you are and trusting yourself. Do do you see how

28:16that will undermine that? I do. Yeah. And I think the other thing that um you know and I Yeah, it does

28:22make sense. And I think the other thing that that she struggles with as well is like the years of disconnection. Um

28:30she's having a hard time working through that from what I'm hearing from her. And so it's like, you know, to me when all

28:36of this happened, when she stepped out of the marriage in my head, I decided that our old marriage was dead. Our old

28:41life was dead. I I killed it. I'm like, it's it's we're we're starting fresh. New foundation. We're rebuilding our

28:47house, metaphorically speaking. Like it's everything's new. the way I we treat each other, the way we look at

28:52each other, the love we have for each other. Like it's all it's all new. I'm I've decided that in my head. And for

28:58her, it's like right now when I take a step back from her, she she takes that

29:03as like, oh, Jordan is Jordan is, you know, not connecting me connecting with

29:09me the way I need him to connect with me. But in my head, it's like the reason I'm not connecting is because I'm still

29:14suffering in a way from what happened. and and then through all of this what we just talked about. So again, it's this

29:21cycle of like we're not meeting each other where we need to be met. And again, it's like her associating

29:27my feelings now with the past 12 years. And in reality, it's completely

29:33different. My feelings exist now for lots of different reasons. I want to I want to love her. I want to connect with

29:39her. I I wonder if that would be a part of this while you're while you're hanging into it. There's, you know, there's

29:46reasons to stay in the yo-yo and there's reasons to leave the yo-yo. And if the reasons to stay are there, then you it's

29:53okay to do it a little bit. And what that means is, do I see a willingness

30:00and an effort in my partner to to take a look at themselves, their own shame,

30:05their own relationship patterns, and then go to work on it and not expect perfection?

30:10Yeah. That's that's a reason to stay and do the yo-yo thing. And and then and then if you're going to do that, then you can

30:16invite it to like get better when it's happening. So instead of going and having this conversation and she's

30:21saying something and you're like, "But I'm not even getting my needs met right now, so I can't give you anything."

30:27Okay, that's that's honest. But what if instead of that, you were able to say, "Hey, I'm noticing that our

30:32pattern is coming up right now, and it looks like you're really needing something, and I'm feeling like there's

30:38something that I don't have anything to draw from right now, but I want to." Yeah. um I I might need to do some things to

30:45get something to draw from and I'm still hurting because of this this and this and then you're putting it back in her

30:51court. Now you're almost like pointing out the process as part of the work rather than getting stuck in this place

30:57of like well my you're not meeting my needs and I'm not meeting your needs and bam we're just getting it's like yeah of

31:03course not because shame is in the way. Sure. And so like for instance this is something my wife used to do all the

31:08time. She'd approach me with something, want to talk about it, and I would instantly kind of do what it sounds like your wife does. I'd go into like shell

31:14mode. I'd just be like, "Yep, I I suck. I'm no good." Almost like drop all eye contact, like

31:21that's exactly what she does. She looks you deserve somebody better. All that stuff. And And my wife at first would be

31:26like, "Oh my gosh, like duh, you know, and then she started learning like, hey, like this is his process." And I see other

31:34parts of his life where he's trying to like change. she would just invite it back and say, "Hey, Tyler, I don't need

31:39you to shrink away right now. I need your presence or I need you to listen. And if you can do that, I want to keep talking. And if not, then let's go get

31:46planted again. Like, go figure your stuff out so we can continue the conversation cuz I don't need you to disappear. I don't need you to shrink

31:52away. I don't need you to like get lost in your shame." And uh and and that was almost like a to

31:58me it was like an invite into like ah yeah like I don't need to take this personally right now. I need I just

32:04she's just here looking for a place to have to be met with some understanding and empathy. Sure.

32:09Right. So you can invite that invite that by bringing the process out rather than the needs thing.

32:15Sure. Okay. It's good. It's hard to do.

32:22It is. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of what you're dealing

32:27with too is like I mean she's still here, right?

32:32Yeah. Yeah, she's still here. And so a lot of what you're dealing with,

32:37and you brought this up, is is her own and I don't know. I mean, she's she's not here here talking to us right now,

32:42but but it's it's her own just shame and guilt and and things like that. And

32:49it's it's really unfair to you when you've been betrayed that you have to be

32:54the the patient one and the strong one, the strong one, the kind one, right? Um,

33:01but if you can be, then it will give her a chance to start to look within a

33:07little bit and start to process some of that guilt, start to process some some of that shame.

33:12When you go to um if like I'm not saying you have to be

33:18perfect, but if you go to drama or trying to force her or manipulate her

33:25into things, then she'll still feel that disconnect from you. It's true. Um,

33:31so it's hard though, Jordan, you're in a tough position.

33:38Yeah. And I think the other night whenever I uh, you know, whenever I I told her, I was like, "Look, you need the space. Like, I'll give you the space

33:45that you need to do your own work." I wasn't. And I told her that. I said, "I'm not I'm not forcing you to do anything." I I I literally said that to

33:50her. I said, "I'm not forcing me to do anything that you don't want to do. But I'm telling you like like I'll give you

33:56the space like if and that's protecting myself. like that's to protect my own heart. Like I can't do this anymore if

34:03this is how it's going to be. And that's when she brought up like the whole thing about how she started going to counseling and I said, "Thank you." And

34:08I and I literally said, "Thank you for telling me that. Like I appreciate you telling me that. Like I need it's it was nice to hear that." So, but I'm never

34:15but you I told her that I'm never anything I bring up. It's it's not from a place of judgment. It's not from a

34:21place of anger. It's it's not it's it's just too,

34:26you know, and and yeah, I'm just kind of rambling now, but yeah, and it's I've always given her the option. I've never,

34:32you know, I've never made it like this is the ultimatum. It's it's if you like

34:37I'm I'm here to protect myself first,

34:45right? Right. And that's and that's the part that's like I I even hear you in your process here understanding that

34:51it's like where it's coming from. That's where I'd start to try to start doing my dance more with the other person is in

34:57that vulnerable realm of Yeah. What help me understand why it's going into self-p protection right now

35:03because that's not what I was bringing up and that's not what we need right now. Yeah. Um Yeah. And and again, you don't want

35:09to fall all the way into then caretaking it, right? cuz cuz that's suck getting sucked into the drama in a different

35:15way. But it's also like being able to acknowledge it and then you can then you can take that time out you need. Maybe

35:22it's not a full separation or divorce, but it's like yeah, like and and the reason she probably doesn't like that

35:27you're like, "Hey, I'm going to just take a break for a minute and let you figure your stuff out." And she's like,

35:32when when you when you actually create that space, it's the invitation for her to have to step into that a little bit

35:38more. And she's not used to that because you've overpursued it. Right. But that's the gift. Even though it's

35:44uncomfortable. Sure. Yeah. Right.

35:49It's tricky stuff, Jordan. It is tricky to dance. Yeah. Yeah. And I know there's Do you

35:56have like good support? Do you have friends? Do you have people you can talk to that that actually will like be

36:04honest with you? And Yeah, I do. I got a few good guy friends that I talked to about a lot of this and

36:11uh yeah, I I got a good support system. That's good. Rely on them right now. You

36:16need support as you navigate this. Um I I'd also say too like I know that to

36:22you it feels like a lifetime or two or 10, but in the grand context, you know,

36:29of things, six months is relatively still pretty fresh. I Yeah, I hate to see this. You're new at

36:34this. see you. Yeah. And I know that that's not fun to hear because you're like, "Oh my gosh, I

36:40don't want to be living in this forever. I don't want you to either." But sometimes there's almost this like added suffering that gets put on you because

36:46you're like, "I should be over this by now. I should make my decisions by now. I should have this figured out by now." And it's like, dang, if we're stepping

36:52into conversations about shame with each other and we're six months into this, we're actually probably right where we

36:58should be or even further ahead than a lot of people are. Um, but but then

37:04there also needs to be the effort on the backside towards like, hey, we both need to figure out our shame resiliency and here's what I'm doing and I'd love to

37:10know what you're doing and letting like when your example letting her know like I don't need to ask all the questions

37:15and she probably maybe has worries about that because maybe you've done that before. Maybe you've played 20 questions like over certain things, right?

37:22Yeah. Yeah. And and Yeah. And that and that's like the truth. I mean, it's I've had like I had a lot of bad

37:30relationships before I met my wife and uh and I used to do that. I used to question her and about things and she's

37:37like, "I'm not lying to you." And so now it's like when I and and and it's not like that anymore. Now it's it's like I

37:42I think in my head it's like the worst of the worst has happened. So how how much it can't be any worse. So now I'm

37:48to a point where I'm like look like the cards are on the table. Like I'm not judging you for anything. Like it's it

37:54almost was like a reset for me. I'm not thankful that it happened, but it like allowed me to just clear my head of any

38:00of my like it's almost like my worst nightmare happened. And so now I now it's like it's not really a dream

38:07anymore. Now it's not like well what if it happens? What if it happens? What if it happens? Maybe it did happen. It's like okay, it happened and this is how I

38:12feel now. Now we're now I'm just moving forward. I'm working forward through this. And so now it's like when I ask questions I'm not I'm not like asking 20

38:19questions because like what if what if what if. It's like now I'm just asking questions because I want to build a

38:25relationship better than we've ever had. I want to work and grow with you and be with you. And it's like it was just a it

38:31was like I just hit a big red reset button for my own life. And I think that's it. Like so when you

38:36go to her number one, you're letting her know how much it means to you if she would have just even let you know.

38:42And then she says, "Well, I didn't want to do it for you and I want to do it for myself." Which is a great answer. And she's like, "I'm also worried about you

38:48asking too many questions." Okay, that's fair. So, here's the dialectic. You're right. Sometimes I've been I've asked

38:54too many questions and it hasn't been helpful for either of us. And it still means a ton to me. If I when if I see

39:01you taking those efforts of your own fruition, that's like that's like medicine to my soul. That gives that

39:08gives me hope. Yeah. Right. So, so that kind of information is the kind of information that I really would love from you.

39:14Yeah. Right. For sure. Um, so you're inviting it while also kind of taking ownership for

39:19your part. Yeah. Yep. How are you feeling right now, Jordan?

39:24Good. Um, good relative, but good. Uh, I I I've enjoyed talking to you guys and

39:31um yeah, it's been it's been good talking to you guys. So, I'm feeling hopeful.

39:37Jordan, you're a good man. Uh, willing to do your own work. I love people who are willing to look within. Um,

39:43it's not every day we get a man who's been on the betrayed side of things to come on. So, appreciate your willingness

39:48to come and do that today, too. Yeah, I think it shows that you're searching for answers for yourself. And, you know,

39:55the journey is uh is it's always ongoing. Um, you're in a you're in a

40:00state right now of where it's pretty painful and um it's not going to be this

40:07painful forever if you're willing to actually step in and do this work. Yeah. Um, some things might shift and change

40:14in your life in different directions, but uh, you you will start to feel more

40:20peace as long as you're willing to work through that pain. So, I really appreciate you coming on today.

40:25Sure. Yeah, I'm happy I did. Yeah. Any last uh thoughts on your heart today, Jordan?

40:32Um, not really. Uh, not really. I hope I can

40:38do another call with you guys down the road and give you an update on what's going on with us. We'd love to have you back, please, man.

40:44Yeah, go on go on and book another one a few months out from now. We'd love to we'd love to get some snapshots of your

40:49work and um it sounds like you've already got a really good kind of plan going in place. Um but you'd also I would think you just

40:57hearing you and where you're at like you would really benefit from the healing journey as well, which you're probably doing a lot of in other formats.

41:03Sure. Um, so anyway, it was Go ahead, Brandon. Well, I was just gonna say that's our program over at Reclaim Your Heart and

41:10and it would be exactly something that would be really helpful for you and your

41:15own individual work, you know. Yeah. Thank you, Jordan. Thanks for

41:21coming on. And thank you to our listeners for being here. If uh Jordan's story rings a bell for you, you can

41:26shout out to him with the review at any of the podcast formats. You can send questions or you could send even some

41:33feedback our way at therapy.org. And uh thank you all for being here with

41:39us and until next time, keep on keeping on.