Should I STAY in a Sexless Relationship?

Intro

should I stay in a sexless relationship brianna good to see you man good to seeyou too i got a question for you today oh man i love it bring iti don't know if you'll even remember this but tell retell the story of theday you built the fort by the country clubyou know it's funny it was like this time of year it was this week um because I had just gotten out of uh sixth gradeand uh me and my friends we've been looking for a wild for for a place to build a fort you know we wanted our ownlike place we our own hideout hunker down yeah and we had this group of guyswe we called ourselves No chicken no chickeni didn't I didn't even remember that cuz we were in chicken to do anything no chicken no chicken and uh yeah WinstonDustin you know Hail Spice

Betrayal’s Impact on Intimacy

these were my boys Lynn um anyways we we set up this this we found this perfectspot down by a river just off of a golf it was like between a golf course in a park and so like nobody would go downthere ever and we found this perfect spot there was It was covered with treesright by a river there was kind of these you know these kind of weeds and so wewe laid them down and they're kind of soft and made your own beds you built a fort for built the fort like it wasawesome because we had this like bed of kind of weeds and well those weeds were poison oakand let's just say this everything swelled upeverything like it oh my gosh poison oak is betterthan sealis oh my yeah oh yeah big timei remember mom like middle of the night I look like a monster like my face just like and I was like hey yeah you knowdown low some issues too she's like let me see i was like oh you're a sixth grade boyyeah um so then Dustin broke out we all started breaking out and it likeneedless to say that fort didn't last too longit's funny you bring that up i can't believe it was like talk about like trauma response i can't believe it'slike the almost the week anniversary of what years ago it is the week right nowand yeah I'm having flashbacks so thank goodness for predinazone likeit saved my life like just a little bit of steroid like but here I I could go onso I went on steroids to to take away the inflammation and stuff and steroidsmess with your emotions so I go to a baseball game then like the next day i'm still like elephantitis man a little bitand I strike out and just start sobbing like uncontrollably likeand I'm like why am I crying anyways I could go on yeah that was a

Three Years Without Sex

fun experience yeah well and you learned the hard way what poison oak was so you never made that mistake since well Iactually did but that's another story yeah I have big time lately later slowlearner yeah slow learner so well um Yeah well um just a justanother quick shout out here we um we used to be about three months out on guest callers and then we messed up onthe website i messed up the website so there's actually openings for guests so if you're interested in coming on theshow with us right now um therapyros.orgyou can go and sign up to be a caller or you can just submit a question in writing um we've been getting a lot ofpeople asking about um being stuck like kind of being inthat space in a relationship where the crisis part of the disclosure is over after the betrayal of some type of trustbut but really not making extra progress now maybe in that you know year to threeor four years after um if you're a couple that's in that position and willing to come on and talk with us wewould love to have you come on and have some discussion around that again therapyros.orggo sign up become a call on the show yep we would love to have you so please come on um okay Tyler we're talking aboutstuck we're talking about a a difficult topic that a a lot of times people feel really stuck with um so you know shouldI stay in a sexless relationship um this comes up quite a bit and I thinksurprisingly Tyler for for some people um this is not like when it comes to men

Rejection and Disconnection

or women on one side or the other it happens on one side or the other um allthe time and there's reasons why sex life breaks down and there's reasons whysex stops in a relationship um but then it it leads to all kinds of um stuffthat comes up in that relationship as a result so I'm excited to dive into thiswith you Tyler we get this one quite a bit Brandon i get this a lot like you said actually on both sides um itdoesn't seem to be just a men's or a women's question uh the reasons why it gets asked and the conditions of therelationship might be a little bit different sometimes so we can we're going to talk a little bit about that soum I think that's where we start Brandon is let's talk about the reasons a sexless marriage starts to form and whathappens at least some typical things that that can go on and then and then after that we can kind of get into adiscussion about well then what do I do and how long do I stay yeah right yeah that's that's good so um so how does itstart to form like that's a really uh complicated question because it can happen in for for a lot of differentreasons multiple reasons yeah anything from sex is painful physically and sosex is really hard hard to engage in um often times sometimes there's someerectile dysfunction or a lack of performance so there's a lot of shame around that so I don't want to engagesexually because it just triggers so much of my shame pull away from it yeah sometimes it's it's just the breakdownin the relationship breakdown in trust breakdown in intimacy breakdown in connection and so one or both partnersdon't desire sex with each other but still desire sex because they're humanright um and I think I think that's at the essence of this question that we've got um and maybe we'll be spending a lotof time on that particular one Brandon um there's another one too that you you mentioned that I think is important justto speak that a lot of times expectations around sexual intimacy are

Can You Live Without Sex?

different according to your own belief systems about sex before you even get into the relationship in the first placeand so then you get into the relationship and there's two sets of expectations and two sets of feelingsabout sexuality that it's so strange to me but a lot of people before they get married never even talk about thosekinds of things right and then they clash and then it causes such a discomfort that people just often try toavoid it yeah like I'll give you an example a common one um where there'sexpectations about sex and a lot of times um a lot of times some of thoseexpectations are you know the man thinking I'm entitled to this wherewhere is sex you know and and the woman actually in many ways takes on that sameexpectation um you know has sex when she doesn't want it pressure to perform pressure toperform pressure to to step into it to do it even though she doesn't like itand over time if she continues to do that she starts to resent it she starts to avoid it she starts to not want tonot want to have sex and then the partner who wants it is feeling like it's personal and that they're gettingwhere's my reject i'm entitled to this yeah which which never leads to the otherpartner saying "Yeah okay." Like that that turns me on that because it doesn'tright so you can This is just an example of how it can break down over time um ontop of things Tyler that we deal with all the time things like betrayal um orcheating or broken trust like those things often times aren't good for acouple's sex life um so yeah it can break down in all different ways yeah um

Why Sex Still Matters

as far as like just for our discussion right now Brandon for a minute let's just use the question that's here it'sbeen three years since disclosure and we haven't had sex yet i'm assuming that's we were having sex before disclosure andthen it's changed um let's let's go off of that premise okay um my partner neverinitiates and when I've tried to it's always met with rejection what do I do so three years so it's been three yearspast D-Day there's still a whole bunch of details that would need to be filled in but we can speak principally to somethings here um we haven't had sex yet my partner never initiates and when I havetried it is always met with rejection so we were having sex we've had this bigmassive blow up in our relationship and since then physical intimacy has pretty much been off the table for three yearsnow right right and Yeah i think Tyler there's this there's this like beliefout there that it goes something like this like you can live without sexso why don't you like if you can live without sex then it's selfish to want itwhen your partner doesn't it's something it goes something like that right andespecially when you've betrayed or done something to harm the relationship likehow dare you push for sex in the relationship um but there's there's aproblem with that thinking do you see the problem with that thinking Tyler yeah I think I I would Iwould first say that part of what you're saying though Brandon is there is some legitimacy to it as well whereabsolutely you know where where the partner a lot of times who's pushing for more sex um especially if they've beenthe one who's done the betraying too often times they they've got some theymay even have some kind of compulsive sexual behavior going on right and and if that's the case then they've learned

When Desire Feels Selfish

to look at sex in a certain way with a certain energy and a certain level of expectation a certain set of beliefsthat has them come to believe that sex is my biggest need and they kind of need to learn that you know at least I don'tknow if you've had this happen but nobody's exploded to date in 20 years of therapy nobody's died nobody's like youknow people people do survive without sex how many times have I heard thatlike just just that manipulation of like "Oh I need to have it or else or elsewhat?" Like or else I'm going to die some some people literally think "I don't think I can survive without it."Right right right now with that said Brandon I I know where you're going i just wanted to get that out there thatsometimes there's a belief about that that's actually causing part of the disconnection in the relationship and the struggle and it's creating pressureon the relationship and it's coming from a a place of beliefs that's actually not serving you very well now with that saidthe response to too many things over the course of our our careers Brandon has been then then that means we need toshut down your sexuality you should never want it you should never feel sexual you should never pursue your partner again um and I think both youand I would maybe disagree with that approach absolutely uh well so I look at it likethis um a relationship a healthy relationshiphas connection now connection is like this big word because it means a lot ofthings um but I'm talking emotional connection a healthy relationship hasemotional connection a healthy relationship has spiritual connection uma healthy relationship has sexual connection physical connection a andphysical connection that's not sexual as well right um and healthy it has socialconnection where so so I'm I'm naming all of these things social sexual

Real Relationship Connection

emotional physical every single one of those things is really importantreally really important including sexual connection like that's important so canI live without it yeah I can live but when it comes to being a fully balancedum human who is experiencing all of life that part of connection in arelationship is important I believe to every human now does that mean thereforeI have to have it or else I'm gonna explode you say Tyler or or I have tohave it my my spouse better give it to me because I that I better have itbecause because good relationships are supposed to have that yeah no no no it doesn't mean any of that it doesn't meanany of that and it is important and so like like I'veseen people get divorced because they haven't had sex in 10 years and to meafter 10 years now there's some things that hopefully we'll get into here that you can do before you get to divorce buthow at what point do you really start sacrificing yourself and sacrificingyour truths by accepting no sexuality in your relationship right and it'simportant for you to own that and to be honest with yourself now let's back up Tyler before we're getting to I'm goingto divorce you because you won't have sex with me because because there's a lot of there's a lot of things that youabsolutely can do to help the situation in your relationship um that that will support hopefully you

Is No Sex a Dealbreaker?

guys getting back online and connecting in all the ways yeah if it's if it'sokay Brandon I want to maybe just paint the picture of a a pretty popular thing that goes on inour practice when this happens at least a wide bandwidth of a lot of people would relate to this okay um and thenmaybe we'll see a couple of place where snags happen so we have what we think isa healthy relationship d-day happens things blow up and as a result of thateverything gets thrown into question the body goes into shock sometimes trauma shock like whoa like I I'm blindsided idon't even know what to believe anymore there's this uh if you go to therapy anywhere you're probably going to betaught you need to start grounding yourself and you need to seek safety and safety sometimes includes taking someemotional or physical distance from the places where you've been traumatized and you're swimming you're trying tofigure out how to get your feet planted again to get a clear head and make decisions and then you have thequestions that get thrown into the mix in your relationship that include questions about sexual intimacy safetyconnection all of those things right right so and then what we teach I don'tknow if you teach similar principles or not exactly this way Brandon but I teach partners to engage in sexual intimacy

Holding Patterns After Betrayal

when there's safety and trust and to protect themselves and never toengage in sexual intimacy if it's out of a place of guilt or fear or shameright yes so there so a partner is taught a betrayed partner is taught take sometime get grounded set some boundaries to make sure that you're not going to like get flooded emotionally and then let'sstart making sure that you're engaging sexually when the conditions are safe and right for you to do that with yourvalues yes right so that's so we're all on the same page right now that that's the direction we start to go and thenwhat you have is the betrayed betraying partner kind of going like "Okay and I need to go to work on myself which meansI need to learn to be accountable humble honest learn to practice some empathystart leaning into the relationship differently showing up sometimes having to recalibratewhat physical intimacy means to not just mean the daily quest but to actually be grateful for a handhold or an eyewink ora smile or other forms of intimacy i'm working on that expanding that scaleof intimacy and being grateful for all of it instead of just the final product my partner is now trying to figure outhow to get grounded and make choices based off of safety and trust and a lot of times couples get in thatholding pattern and that's one of the catch points where then it could go foryears without being able to move forwardnow if if I'm the betrayed partner and my partner isn't doing that work that Ijust described in terms of working on honesty humility openness empathyum it's going to be really hard for me to want to lean back in and it's probably wise for me not to lean back intoo much if those things aren't happening right and on the flip side if I'm if I'm

What Safety Really Means

working my tail off and I'm I'm becoming honest I like where I'm going i've created some sobriety I've cut off myaffair partner I'm stepping into learning empathy I'm holding space I'm expanding my perceptionsover time that's creating safety in the relationship and if my partner decidesnever to come along inside of that safety then there's another gap that gets spread that way and eventually eventhough I'm the one who did the betraying in the first place I've also basically become a completely different person andI'm growing out of the old relationship right right now that's not to putpressure on the betrayed partner but the betrayed partner sometimes relies so much on that word quote safety and we'rebig on safety but that word safety sometimes also means don't step back inthe game even when you probably need to yeah safety is it it's s such a catch 22 because you'llknow that you have trust and safety when you take risk and and I know that soundsbackwards and so if you're sitting on the sideline and never wanting to be vulnerable with your partner you'llactually never know whether they're safe like truly um so that's the risk becausethen it's a messy process where you get it right sometimes and sometimes you don't and if both partners are workingand that's kind of a hard process for people to go through yeah have you Tyler have you ever heard of uh sensate focustherapy so I I just like the premise of it because it kind of it kind of explains alittle bit of what you're talking about um so it's a type of sex therapy that itutilizes these touchbased exercises that couples do um to improve their sex lifeand but it's really interesting what it is um they'll have homework thoughbetween therapy sessions and the homework is things like you know you can

Sensate Focus Therapy

touch these parts of your partner's body it might just be their hand theirexample their feet and that's all you can touch and thiswill not lead to sex and so you can connect to them in this physical waythat's very managed and very controlled in many ways and yet it'sstill vulnerable you know and then it leads into things like looking in each other's eyes and then finally likefull-fledged sexual intercourse right but but that takes time it takes a lotof time and a lot of touch and a lot of vulnerability for each partner to knowthat hey you're loving me like you're not using me um you can sit in in the inin the presence of what is with me without needing to have sex with me andbecause of that I trust you and I want to be closer to you um so it walks youthrough that process now what you're talking about Tyler if if I have a partner who's unwilling to engage at alleven if I'm willing to take one little tiny step at a time and do it with thebest heart right and they're unwilling to engage at all and over time I'mhumble I'm kind I'm patient eventually it does come back to me rightof asking that question what works for me what doesn't work for me um you knowhow how are we going to manage this and like for for myself like how do I how doI actually be honest with myself right if my partner's never well I shouldn't say never I hate that word never if itdoesn't seem like my partner wants to do the work then what do I do right that's the question on either on either sideright right on either side that that that leaves me in a spot of needing to then make some decisions to either do

When One Partner Won’t Engage

something different or to choose to see things differently so that I suffer less right exactly you know sometimes peopletry to choose to see things differently but it betrays their values so much that they get resentful right um and othertimes they can and they can find a way to recalibrate like what what a sexual intimacy is going to look like in the relationship and they can find joy andpeace in it and other times they go you know what if I'm being honest like I don't want this to be shallow becauseit's not shallow at this point but this is a a valuable part and if we're not leaning towards it in some way whichwhich by the way the leaning towards it might not be the actual action with each other it might be man my partner isworking their tail off trying to figure out some of their past trauma because they can barely get themselves to engagephysically because of what's happened in the past right okay well if they're if they're still working at that andthey're saying "I also want the same things that you're saying you want but I need to do some work to get there." Thengreat you get to practice that patience support understanding the best thing you can do is take the pressure off i meanif you're going to a partner who's already having a hard time engaging and then putting more pressure on you're doing nobody a service right you're notdoing yourself your partner or the relationship a service by slapping that pressure on top of it right right rightum yeah I you know it's interesting what you said about shallow because it is notshallow to desire sexual intimacy in your life right and so I I I guess wejust Tyler we operate on the side of things so much of like stop with the entitlement so we we work with sexaddiction and so it's it's all messed up it's like well I I consume a partner I use a partner and I'm entitled and youknow but the the other side of it is that if you have um truths about desiring sex

Is It Time to Be Honest With Yourself?

and intimacy like honor that listen to that uh workwith your partner as much as you can go to a sex therapist go to therapy um goon more dates uh connect in all the fun ways that you possibly can and ultimately if yourpartner still says no like no sex then you then you got to ask yourself likeokay what does that mean for me where do I go from here yeah I would just add tothat Brandon sometimes it's this this principle works in a lot of other waysin life you know like in business if you focus on just helping enough other people business kind of takes care ofitself but if you only focus on the business you suffer um sexual intimacy sometimes works that way too where ifyou put such a hyperfocus on it that it suffers but if you put a focus on something broader then that can also bepart of it that actually gets really a lot better natural byproduct so you know so especially when there's been betrayaloftentimes sex has been treated as a currency and it's a it's like a commodity andit's been done in one way or the other from a partner for consumption um and if both partners can kind of pullout of that and say we want to redefine how this fits in the broader context of our relationship and we're moving ourrelationship from a place of consumption to a place of connection now we get to step into all those other places youwere talking about sensate focus does that there's another one called um sexual reintegration therapy which is similar to sensate focus but it's alsoit includes a lot more verbal discussion type stuff um and what I'm doing is I'mtaking the full scale of connection and I'm going I'm going to learn how to lovebeing in the presence of my partner when they tell me this story i'm going to learn how to just really enjoy being close to them and putting my arm aroundthem while I watch a show or um and and as I learn to offer my presence and

Wrapping Up

practice gratitude and and be engaged with receiving their presenceI then do the same principles inside of our physical sexual intimacy and thatwill actually grow as the whole relationship grows um because the bestsex happens when there's true safety and trust right exactly umso Tyler if we were to break this down and get really clear I think step one islike really checking in with yourself of asking yourself am I a partner that cancreate healthy intimacy have I dealt with my own stuff have I dealt with myown trauma my own wounds you know you don't have to be perfect but can Icreate trust can I create safety um I think that's step number one i agree iagree with that it's the self- introspection and I think maybe step number two is then taking a look at checking the factsof your relationship right and saying what are what are the facts of the relationship am I with apartner who's engaged in and committed to similar principles or not right rightand and be really honest with yourself and and and I would say do that as asneutral or non-judgmental as possible so you know it's without the resentmentback toward your partner without the judgment without the you know or the blame like that what Tyler just said isnot is not you you're assessing how bad they suck no it's a it's really more of a check-in on are the conditions rightfor me to actually want to start leaning in a little bit more or or doing this work or not right and if if theconditions aren't right you don't have to you don't have to demonize them you just keep your boundaries it's just thereality is is they're not right like this doesn't work for me right okay okay so then okay if you get if you get thereand you you make that assessment and you say the conditions are right then you can move forward in working on thingsand being vulnerable and practicing some of the things that we've talked about if the conditions aren't right forengagement sexually with your partner then what what's the next step well I I think Ithink the natural the natural place to go is in your boundaries that you're now setting for yourself based on thoseconditions those will be either an invitation for the system to change or they will eventually lead you to yourown choices for something different right okay right um so so interpret whatyou just said like so basically so basically nothing's getting better um let's say like my partner actuallyreally doesn't feel safe my partner's still kind of showing up dishonestly and kind of controlling ways and putting alot of pressure on me therefore I'm probably not going to lean in and engage the way that I wish Icould because I would like to redevelop that relationship so I'm going to take some emotional space maybe some physicalspace in the relationship just to make sure that I'm not feeling so much of that like flooding and pressure thatthat's been coming and my choice to do that is actually an invitation to my partner in its own way to say "Hey ifyou want more connection then it's got to be done in some different ways or else I'm not going to be able to engagethat way." Right if my partner then chooses to come along and do that work those are good signs and I can startleaning myself forward again it's like it's like those little plastic expandable balls where they they getthis big or they get really small it's like I'm going to lean in as much as I can for the conditions and then if theconditions aren't right I'm going to just expand and then wait and see and then I'll either lean in or continue toexpand outward based off of what my partner decides to choose to doand two people doing that with each other eventually can kind of like my hands are moving in and out right nowbut like eventually they can kind of work them way their their way into a deeper sense of connection if bothpartners are willing to work it that way right right and let's say one partner islike let's say one partner is in this place of I don't want to divorce but I alsodon't want to be close i you know all the other reasons the money the kids the all those reasonskeep me here but having sex with you is like the last thing on earth that I want to do so let's say one partner is justunwilling sure as long as I mean I would still recommend honesty on both sides soif the one partner comes and is like "Hey I don't want to leave because we're tootied up with financial things and I think it's best for the kids but I'm not going to have sex with you um I don'thave any interest in that." That's at least honest and then it gives the other partner a chance to go and think thingsthrough and come back and say "That sucks to hear i had to deal with aton of shame and I got through my rejection but you know what okay fine like for the sake of the greater goodwith the kids and I'll take the consequences of being in a sexless marriage for now or maybe I come backand I say "You know what like I know this is really hard but I think it'sworth it for us to split even though that's going to be really hard on the kids and the financesbecause I want to be in a in a relationship that is working towards all of it and not justsome of it." Right right right and that that's where I think honesty is whatreally matters yeah i think you start there from both sides yeah yeah and then and then the other thing is and this iswhere relationship with God is really important of like okay like what is mytruth here um like maybe maybe my gut or God or my my intuition is telling me tojust be patient and to keep working on myself and we'll see what happens withthem um maybe like uh the answer I'm getting is you know God's telling meit's time to move on and that's painful and hard and really scary but maybe that's what I need to do if that's whatI'm feeling right um and so when when it comes and Tyler we're not trying to copout with this right but when when it comes to the question should I stay in a sexless relationshipum you really have to connect and say okay like what what feel what do I feelpeace about do I feel peace about being patient then stay do I feel peace about moving out of this relationship then goum do I feel peace about working on myself and focusing there for a while and not have to get divorced or this wayor that way then do that right um but as long as you're checking in with yourselfand really saying "This will work for me for now." I like what you said check in with yourself and with your higher poweryou know um yeah it's funny too because you get this like I have a handful of people who are in this kind of situationlet's say three or more years where there's been no sexual intimacy and like they'll come into my groups and likeeverybody else will be like what the heck like that's a long time like why don't you leave and inevitably theanswer is is well because when I talk to God I'm supposed to stayokay then stay and when you stay you're going to get both the peace of mind of knowing that you've already wrestledwith it but you're also going to be able to accept the other parts of the consequences that come with choosing tostay and Tyler sometimes people say "I've talked to God." But and this is where I I would really challenge themlike it is your answer coming from God or is it coming from fear becausesometimes it's like well it feels like the right thing to do is this and this is what I should do and this will bringthe the least amount of consequences and everyone will think that I'm doing the right thing if I do this thing so Sothis must be the right thing um and and what I I would challenge that and saywhen we talk about wrestling with God for what what is good for you and and in your gut it doesn't come from thoseplaces of fear and should and shame that That's right it's that that oldscripture we always quote "God hath not given us a spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind." Andthat's why that wrestle individually really matters because then you can come into that group and say "Hey I knoweverybody sees that you think I'm crazy but for now that's what I'm choosing and it feels right and it feels right tome." Y um Okay great but but yeah you want to make sure you're making that place from a grounded place a choicefrom a grounded place rather than that fearful or compulsive or should place right right right yeah um Tyler there'sno easy answers to this this is you know this brings up every part of a relationship every you know all of thetrauma that you're each bringing to the table um all of the protective parts that are there and your commitment thatyou have to each other all of the conditioning that you've had the belief systems like it brings it all to thetable and I it's a beautiful thing because I think we have this for areason it it really pushes us to work on ourselves if we allow it um so this hasbeen a good discussion Tyler yeah I just maybe add one last thought to this Brand and I just something that I see i thinkit's I would call this like second level recovery like higher tiered recovery when you get to this kind of spot inyour relationship because you you're past the point of just worrying aboutstaying sober and there's some level of trust that's being built then there's this practice period we we call we'vereferred to it as the messy middle before and I just want to impress upon anyone listening that if you find yourself in a spot where you're in arelationship where you're working on your own recovery you sense that your partner is working on their recovery you're in that spot and then you want tostart leaning in when you start leaning in it's going to be messy it's not goingto be perfect it's going to maybe bring up old feelings it's going to bring up old triggers it's going to be hard it'sgoing to feel awkward um and people sometimes get discouraged and give up and say it's never going to get betterwhen in reality being ridiculously patient with one another and beingwilling to offer grace in the practice if you sense that your partner is genuinely doing their work then offergrace and let yourselves practice and get it wrong a few times um but thencome back and talk about how to make it better and and try again and uh give yourselves a chance to exercise anddevelop the muscles that actually do lead to deeper connection it was a process to get you to where you're atwith this stuckness um it's going to take a process to help you get unstuckand so engage um one step at a time and be willing to do that work together andyou absolutely I've seen couples go from from like really being stuck with intimacy to to thriving together anddoing well together but they were both willing to do that work and they both wanted to do it absolutelyso love the question thank you for whoever submitted this question um it's you're definitely definitely not aloneum thank you to everyone listening for your support hopefully we're helpful to you too and until next time keep onkeeping