What Does Healthy Masculinity Have To Do With Recovery?

2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess, what a deal. So, we if you're interested, if you're struggling, if you've been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we're also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you're a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you're saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That's exactly what I'm saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don't come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It's beyond therapy. The best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. What does healthy masculinity have to do with recovery?[Music]Welcome to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers, we're therapists, and we knowrecovery. Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with real recovery.[Music] [Applause]What does healthy masculinity have to do with recovery? Brandon, we love this topic. This isgoing to be a good one today. We've got a good guest on. I'm going to read our review for the the day. We've actuallygot a couple of really good reviews that have come in over the last couple of weeks. We must have hit some nerves with whatever we're talking about. Uh, sothis one comes from APY10. It says, "Thanks for helping break the shame cycle." It says, "Thank you, Brandon andTyler. I started my recovery a couple of years ago and find more and more joy in my recovery as I seek to overcome myshame. You guys have been a huge part for me overcoming that shame. You guys gave me the courage to be completelypublic about my recovery. It has truly changed my life and combed the shame. People have reached out with love andsome have reached out for help. I frequently share your episodes on social media and the things that I'm learningfrom you guys. My greatest takeaway from your podcast is how to break the shame cycle with myself and for my kids. I'velearned that the best way our kids can learn and know God's unconditional love is by showing them our unconditionallove. Their value is not based on righteousness or obedience to our rules and God's commandments. As we love themwith their imperfections, then they will better understand God's love for them and learn to obey him out of love ratherthan fear. A home filled with rigidity and control does not breed obedience outof love, but will likely breed disobedience within secrecy due to shame. Thanks for all you guys do tobreak this shame cycle. I love your podcast. Keep them coming. Holy cow, that that review had greatcontent in it. No kidding. There's a whole episode in that. That right there's a warrior for truth.Someone with courage. Love it. I love that, man. Thank you for sharing and thank you for uh for letting us knowthat we're making a difference. We do appreciate that feedback and we're always looking to make ourselves better. So, we appreciate it.Yeah. Awesome. I love to hear the shift that that's happening and and the permission to uh let go of the shame,come out of the hiding, just be more free and in the light. So, and and really that's that's what we're going totalk about today. So, we got an awesome guest on. Um Tyler knows him very welland and I know him as well, but but John, welcome to the show. It's good to have you. Thank you. Thank for thanks for havingme on. Um do you want to introduce yourself a little bit? Just tell us a little bit about what what's going on in your lifeand who you are and and uh and why you're here.Um okay. So, I'm John. Um, I'm I'm probably just a really busyperson lately. I I I started into a recovery journey uh about nine years agoand it's an ongoing thing and I think it will always be an ongoing thing. Uh, but I'm committed enough to it that I wentback to school working on a grad degree uh to be a counselor myself someday. Um,but I've really appreciated the help I've had uh along this journey and a lot of that has been with Tyler and withsome a lot of group work with Tyler.I know John, when I met you, I met you at at one of our retreats. I think thatwas the first time I met you and you were in the early stages of of hey, I'm going to go back to school.like recovery was really becoming kind of this uh mission and this part of lifepurpose for you, I think. And uh and I was like, "Awesome, John." Like, that'sthat's good. I'm glad you're going to do it. And then here we are years later and talk about follow-through, right? You'reon your you're well on your way. Yeah. And I think probably when we met,um it was a budding idea that I didn't really have a lot of confidence in. Anduh yeah that I have uh overcome well I don't know maybe overcome's a littlestrong word but I've really had to work on some anxiety that I have uh about myself and about um my abilities andwhether I'm willing uh to push and and actually because it's quite a career shift for me. Uh but now we are quite aways down the path and I've started um into an internship program and actuallydoing a little bit of counseling now and I've learned a lot along the way.Yeah. So, John, you uh you you came on with areally good question that I think would be a good one to just pose the way you posed it to us. And let's get into adiscussion about that a little bit and then we'll talk a little bit about um about this idea of masculinity that uhthat was kind of the beginning of the question, right? So the question is and and Ithink it's an important one but what is what is finding my masculinity or understanding healthy masculinity whatdoes that have to do with recovery and why is it important to recovery?Um it is recovery. I mean done, right? Like if you really understandmasculinity, if you find your masculinity, um then it you're finding the the I ifyou think about recovery, so many people get recovery wrong. They think of recovery first and foremost as sobriety.Like I'm touching my penis too much. I need to stop masturbating. Stop looking at porn. And if I do that, then that'srecovery. like that's that has that that has not that much to do with recovery.Believe it or not, all that all of that behavior is the outcomes of of the issue. Um the issueI is you're recovering an understanding of who you really are. And when you do thatand you figure out I'm a son of God, um I'm I'm I'm noble. I'm I'm of noblelineage. I'm a son of God and as a man, I trust myself. I know myself. I haveconfidence. Then you naturally step into your your masculinity. So, I know I'mjust jumping off the deep end here. I get it. Um, but it's such a good question, John,but I I think to go from point A to to kind of what I'm talking about is iskind of tricky and it's not so clearcut, right? Yeah, John, can I ask you ask you aquestion just to kind of get some more information here? is that you've been you said you've been in this process fornine years now of recovery which is an incredible process and it sounds likeyou've grown in some confidence and things but I'd like to know from you like if you were to take snapshots ofhow you would define even define masculinity before you started your program before you started your recoveryand to now what did it look like then versus now how has it changedthat's a great question. Um, I think that I I think that I would say at the time, say if you really went back andtook a snapshot that nine years ago, I think I would have said prior to the D-Day, the discovery, I would have saidI that I thought I knew what masculinity was. Uh I I'm a dad and uh trying tolead my family and um active in my religion and and all those things are part of my masculinity. But probably inreality um there were some big holes and some gaps. Um I was looking at it now Ican see I was really very unsure of myself and so I acted a lot of times outof fear. I I would uh I would be too aggressive at home and in conversationsand in my relationship with my wife. And a lot of that stemmed from not beingvery sure of myself and who I am. Fast forward to now another snapshot and I'mhearing Brandon say these these descriptors of what it's like to understand your mascul masculinity. AndI I know I'm not there yet. Not that I haven't made a lot of headway, but I know that there's still more for me toto know and to feel confidence in myself and in who I am um and in myrelationship with other men and my relationship in my family and acting Iwouldn't even say 100% because I know you're not going to do that, but acting trying to act striving to act all thetime. uh coming from a place of of secure masculinity where I uh wherebeing a man um means being a provider and being a protector and uh but also uhshowing love and and cherishing my wife and that relationship and and um havingan acceptance for others around me. Mhm. You said something, John, that and justtelling us a little bit about your journey into into where you're at today that really is interesting to me is whenyou're talking about being a therapist and shifting careers and stepping into that, you said, "I've had to kind offace some anxiety." Um, and I I'm just wondering, you know, nine years ago,kind of being unsure of of who you are and and just coming out of of addictionand, you know, to to sitting in that anxiety. How did you do that?Well, that wasn't an easy process. Um, and it did take some time. Uh, I startedto explore the idea of maybe shifting careers. Uh, taking a step back further, I I did a bachelor's degree back in the90s that was in family and human development. And I think that my idea at the time was to be a family therapist.Um, but I So, it's always kind of been in you a little bit. Yeah. And I think it'sbeen calling to you. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes we take a paththat's just easy or uh we don't put a lot of effort into. I'm just speaking ofme, but I'm sure it's true of a lot of people that we just go down the road that is just before us rather thanmaking a conscious decision to this is what I'm going to go into or go for orwhat effort I'm going to be willing uh to put in. And I think probably thatword willing is a lot of the key to it that I had to to gain a willingness touh I don't know accept this call or to uh put in the effort that that was goingto take. But but it you you're talking about it'slike okay like I wanted to say good job John but the the reality is is so manymen um have this call inside of them. They have this purpose. They but butthey do what you were talking about. They they do what's easy or they hide they hide behind shame. They hide behindexcuses. They they don't want to face face the fear. actually feel thatdiscomfort and have the courage to step into uh who they really are. And and I thinkit's just awesome that here you are today moving along this path. And I'msure there's been a lot of steps into the dark like not knowing exactly how all this is going to play out. Umthere's probably been some real kind of fears of your how adequate am I? How howlike can I do this? Um, how do you how do you just keep keep kind of pushing into that?Uh, one of the things that's coming up in my mind when you're talking about that is something that Tyler's talked about about playing small. Um, whichbasically is not showing up with the strength that you really have and and kind of taking the easy way out. Andwhen I heard that wasn't actually something, it was in group work. I'm trying to remember when I first heardit, but it wasn't actually directed at me. But Tyler kind of called somebody out on playing small and and not uh notdoing their best. And I probably have heard it myself too directed at me. But it kind of offends me a little bit. Itmakes me uh look look inwardly and go, am I really doing the best that I can door am I even trying to do this best that I can do? And and then there's thatquestion of what is your best? Do you feel like no matter how muchtherapy you do, things really aren't getting better? As a man, do you feelstuck? Do you lack purpose? Are you unable to create safety and passion andintimacy in your relationships? Are you lacking connection to God? If you'rerelating to any of these things, then you need to come to our Rising Sun Conference. Tyler and I have developed aprocess and an experience for men to shift into their power, to know who theytruly are, to experience their purpose, and learn how to connect to God. So goto rising sunconference.com. Now that's rising sun as insenconference.com and sign up there as soon as you can because space is limited. We'll see youthere. I attended a men's retreat with Brandon, Chase, and Tyler a couple of years ago.The setting was pretty phenomenal, and it felt like the environment that they chose set us up for success from thestart. I knew a few of the guys from another event I had attended, but most of the participants were new to me, and I remember thinking at the beginning uhhow such a diverse group of guys was going to mesh throughout the retreat. There were a couple of really importanttakeaways that have stayed with me since the retreat. First, I was reminded that what we see on the outside is rarelywhat we see on the inside. As we spent time with one another as we worked at dropping the facade that we all tend toput up, especially in new groups of people, it was like we were getting to know an entirely different group ofpeople than we'd met on our first night. And all of the retreat leaders were able to help us quickly develop a trustamongst one another that helped us feel like we could be vulnerable. I loved hearing about the things that the rest of the participants were working on intheir lives and I found that many of them were the same things that I wanted to work on in my life. I think by farthe best part of the experience was the relationships I was able to build with some of the other participants. Therewere times throughout the retreat where we were given free time to recreate or socialize with the others. And I canremember one experience where I was paired up with another participant. We headed out to do some fishing and he andI just spent the entire afternoon, probably about three hours. We didn't get a bite and uh it was one of the mostenjoyable afternoons uh I've ever spent because of the work that we were doing as a group. Uh our walls were both downand we uh the conversation that we had felt like it was between two old friends rather than a couple of guys who hadjust gotten to know each other for a few days. If you're thinking about improving yourself or wanting to deepen yourrelationship with God and with others or if you want to surround yourself with great guys who are living authenticlives and will encourage you to do the same, I would highly suggest one of these retreatsor am I even trying to do this best that I can do? And and then there's thatquestion of what is your best? And right now when I see people and they're struggling for sobriety and people I'mworking with, I I think maybe this right now is the best they can do right now because that's what they're doing. And Ican accept that. And at the same time, I can expect them to man up a little andum and push a little harder and really do better than they're doing. And I don't think it's something that happensovernight. For me, it took me I'm thinking it was more than a year to gofrom this blossoming idea of, hey, I'm going to go back to school to actually getting into a program and starting thatclock ticking down to the first day of classes. John, I love what you said there aboutplaying small. And I think there's probably a lot of guys listening right now that can relate to that. Not even knowing what you they just heard, butthe idea of playing small is where I disappear from what Brandon was talking about. my purpose, my passion, thethings that mean something to me. Because if I were to step into those places, I'd feel vulnerable or I'd be afraid of what people would think of meor I better play it safe. And the truth is is that playing it safe that way, if we're goingback to your question, playing it safe that way is what kills your soul. Andwhen you kill your soul, you're left in a cubicle looking around wondering where you're going to find life. And guesswhere life starts to appear? It's in your addiction. It's, oh, I'm going to go get a little bit of a rushhere. I'm going to get 10 minutes or five minutes away from my desk there. I'm going to I'm going to go and avoidall the pain that I have at home because I don't know how to go home and step into being the kind of husband, father I want to be. And so, I end up in myaddiction as a way of trying to cope with the the the holes that you were talking about, which are those voidsinside of us that say, "This is who I am." And that that's calling to us allthe time regardless of whether we want to acknowledge it or not. But but Tyler, I I do want to tack on towhat you're saying that the trap is set um really early in in almost before weeven know it sometimes where um we have traumas, we have father wounds, we havethings that happen that we don't even realize are father wounds. And Eldridgetalks about the question that every man has, which is, "Do I have what it takes?" And it's interesting if you havethese traps set early and these traumas that say you're not lovable, you're notworth spending time with. Um, I'm going to beat you. I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to abuse you because I don't loveyou. Whatever. Whatever it is, right? And then that question arises to everyman, do I have what it takes? and you automatically know your answer that I don't like I'm I have these wounds thathave already answered those questions. You then grow up to be an adult and youwant to go live your purpose. Well, what do you know? Your purpose is going to take stepping into something. It's goingto take some courage. It's going to take some confidence. It's going to take some security. And those wounds will speak toyou and those identities will come out and they'll say, "No, no, no, no, no. you already know that you don't havewhat it takes here or there. So, so don't like don't step in. And John, asyou're talking, I love what you're saying. It sounds like a 9-year process.The wounds got the best of you. Sounds like the addiction was kind of there, like, you know, taking care of yourneeds and and and causing problems at the same time. But here you are sayingno like I'm not going to believe what I what I thought about my identitynine years ago and I'm shifting and as I shift I step into this anxiety this fearI'm sure you're discovering new things about yourself and gaining more confidence. Is that I don't want tospeak for you John but I want to fill in some of that there because umthe insecurity is still there. I mean, even right now just sitting here talking and being vulnerable. My heart's racing.I'm feeling it, you know, and I'm trying to put a put a in my mind what what's driving that. And, you know,the feel the fear and the insecurity and the questions, they're still there. I I I don't know where you guys are at,but for me, that's still an everyday battle. Some days I pay more attention to it than others, but I'm it's still aI I just assume maybe at this point that it's going to be something I just have to keep working on for a long time. Um Istill am asking my myself the questions, have I really got it? Um I get done withworking with someone for this for a session and I'm like uh was that worth their time to be with me? Was that uhhelpful? I I I feel just a real strong and I think a lot of guys feel this.They start to get some sobriety. They start to get some uh healing and they start to feel just a little bit goodabout themselves and they're like, I want to I want to share this feeling with other people. This is important and this is big, but how can I? And I thinkit's part of that continued growth. is probably the more important part thanfinding sobriety is to finding that outreach and that uh and what and not everybody needs to become a therapist ofcourse but and I've seen other guys do it different ways but finding that way to reach out and step into that ummanhood. I want to bring up um another idea in this and maybe kick this arounda little bit. Um, I'm thinking back to that time before D-Day, before this journey, this part, this chapter ora part of my life. Uh, I don't know that I really had a lot of close friends. I would say probably didn't have a lot ofclose friends at all, but I certainly didn't have a lot of close friends that were guys. Um, I just didn't haveconnection to other men. My my ideas of masculinity and what it is to be a man.Um, a lot of it was with my father and I had one brother that I grew up with andand there's gaps there. But in this journey and doing some group work, I got to know other men and got tosee them in their flawed ways and then their but still respect them and seethat, hey, these guys have value even if they don't know it, but to me they do.And then it starts to build and and grow and and you get more of it. But the idea comes back to you saying maybe I'm thatguy. Maybe I have value among my peers, among other men, and and that works atit. But that voice is really loud still uh even to me today saying, "Are you sure? Are you just faking this?" Mhm.John, I like what you said there because what you're saying is is that you are a continual work in progress. And let's let's be honest, courage, which Ibelieve is something that all of us, if we look at like the masculine heart, we're all drawn to that word courage.Courage doesn't really exist without some level of vulnerability or fear, right? You you wouldn't need to becourageous if there wasn't some risk involved. So for you to be in the space you're at now versus where you were at 9years ago, you're still on the precipice pushing the edges of where your comfort zone is and you're stepping into thatdiscomfort every day. But that's the key here is is that you're stepping into itand and that's what's missing I think for a lot of a lot of men when they kind of get stuck is they they don't have thecourage to step into it. And that ties into the second point you made, which was that when you have, and I thinkthere's I think there's kind of a false sense of I think this is part of toxicmasculinity is is that you're supposed to be the lone man. Like, you know, we're so we're all supposed to be the the lone rider on our horse in thewestern movie. And instead, when you have a team, when you got a team of other men who are flawed men, but butstepping into courage, it provides structure and strength, and it gives you permission to actually step in yourselfto those same places you you see and expect your brothers to be stepping into as well. And that helps with the act ofcourage. I uh just I got to drive home the whatboth of you are saying. two major ingredients from going from thisfloundering place of of insecurity to this this ma really secure place ofhealthy masculinity is stepping um into fear and practicingcourage and getting connection from other men. And Ium Eldridge says masculinity bestows masculinity. I uh I have a boys tripplanned this weekend and that's right Tyler's going on it and I can't wait Ican't wait to just chill with my boys just be just be there just connect likewhat I I know that as a man we are designed to pack up and connect withother men it's it's it's part of who we are and um but the thing about it is ifyou don't love yourself if you don't really if if you don't trust yourself, you're not going to be vulnerable enoughto really experience that connection and then the masculinity won't bestow themasculinity. Um, and and don't get me wrong, we're not talking about gettogether with the boys and like, you know, just be runchy and and, you know,tough and this. That's not what we're talking about when we're talking about masculinity. talking about get togetherwith the boys and support each other in just in in knowing who we are andtrusting ourselves and and being John. I'm different than you. Tyler, I'mdifferent than you. And I don't need to get together with my boys who love me, who want me to be me, and and try toturn into them. I'm just going to feel loved and secure and supported by themno matter who I am or what I've done. Right. Exactly. And I'm Brandon, I'm lookingforward to that too, man. Like, it's it's And I know the reason I'm craving it so much is because I know that whenwe get together and when we're face to face, we're going to actually let even our own walls come down a little bit and there's going to be some deepdiscussions and there's going to be some real conversation about the real issues that all of us are facing in our lives.And and there is something that's extremely valuable to that that I don'tthink a lot of men in our world have today because we've been fed this line that it's weakness to show any of that.Yeah. And there's also this healthy like banter and I I know I'm going to getmade fun of, you know, and and when when Tyler or Rex, my two brothers make fun of me, it's just like they're justsaying they love me. I just love it. Oh, Brandon, let me let me tell a story about last last year's boys trip. Allright. I was last year's boys trip was the same trip. We went down to Texas, hang out with cousins and stuff, and forsome reason on the very first day of the trip, it was my turn to take the heat. And for like three for like three hoursin the car, I just got basically verbally undressed by all you guys about about all the things that I need tochange in my life. And and you know what the funniest thing is? is that if it was told me told me by anybody else, I wouldhave taken total offense. But when you guys were saying it, it was like it actually just hit home for the truth ofwhat I already knew and I took it to God and and my answer came back that yeah, Ineed to I need to try to make some changes. And uh man, how precious was that? thatyeah it was done in a joking way but it was also done at real things and it madea difference right yeah John I want to ask you um you've talked you brought upgroups uh going to groups uh so you've you've experienced some connection withwith other men um what what have been some of the struggles with that and what what has it been like like in terms ofits importance for you um SoI went through I went through a process where we we did a foundational type group a lot like the model that we'redoing now um at Lovrong. Uh and then and that was with the wives and the husbandsand wives were together and it was it was really a lot of information all at once for about six weeks and then uheven during that we would start to separate out into groups with just the men meeting together and my experiencewas I was in with a very strange group of men. First of all, I knew they were all addicts and that just made him weirdto start with, even though that was me. And I was one of those. I just was like, "Oh my gosh." And and I was in a groupof just I was just in a constant judgment mode looking around and go, "Well, at least I'm not that guy and atleast I don't have the problems that that guy has or I was trying to to to measure myselfkind of up against these other guys. And I really had an a fear that I might notmeasure up because that's like the base fear, right? Uh am I good enough? And so I was looking around this group of maybeseven guys and going, "Yeah, yeah, they're all these are all addicts. Theseare all, you know, I didn't find really any connection early on." And then wewere asked to like reach out and make connection with one another. And I just couldn't see that as a possibility, youknow? I just uh that would just be I don't know why it felt so awkward to tohave any conversation like that. But the idea was you know if you had a hard time uh and you were you know if you actedout or you needed to be instantly or quickly accountable for that to to reach out to one of these quote unquotebrothers and I put that in quotes because I didn't feel like they were my brothers at all. Um, and and I did havean incident where I needed to reach out to somebody. And so I actually called Tyler and uh I'm not sure uh why hepicked up right away, but he did because I know um you can't answer the phone toeverybody all the time when you're a counselor. Uh and I really needed to be reaching out to other guys and but Icalled him and I was really in a state and and and I and he says, "You know, you need to reach out to one of your oneof your guys. Do you have some phone numbers?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course I do." cuz we all wrote them down. Andthen he says, "Well, call one and if they don't answer, call another one until you get an answer." And uh so Icalled the least offensive of these group guys and they didn't answer. Andthen so I dialed another one. On a third call, finally a guy answered and I didn't actually feel any connection tohim. Um I I really wasn't feeling a lot of connection to anybody, but he was therefor me. Uh he said, "Okay, so what happened and what are you going to do with that?" And we talked and I probablywas like five minutes. But that was like the first connection and it wasn't like a floodgate opening. It just let thefirst trickle out. Mhm. Uh but I'll tell you uh fast forward there's a guy in that group thatI felt I had nothing in common with and this is like eight years ago and to thisday now he and I are best friends and we've become you know we really rely on each other and we don't speak everyday like we used to and we don't even get in touch every other week but once in a while we'll break out and go playsome Raqqa ball together or something and and we'll talk about stuff that really matters. ers, you know, we havethat connection and we can talk about how it's hard dealing with a family situation that's going on. And um in away, his family's kind of parallel to mine. His kids are a little bit younger, but we're nearly the same age and we'vefound that connection. But this process has changed it, you know, but it itdoesn't seem, at least for me, it didn't seem to come naturally. It was really difficult to toand I I'm not sure why. probably has something to do with having to belet somebody else see my weaknesses in order to make that connection. And I andI in my mind I understand that vulnerability creates connection, butit's really counterintuitive or at least it was to me.Counterintuitive is the right word. It does not come naturally to to go out and and open up and show people yourweaknesses, right? And I love that you're bringing that up, John. And andbecause because in opening that up, that's where you've now created the these connections and this brotherhoodthat you have. Um, but that's the conundrum that I that so many men are inis I they're desperate for connection. They're desperate for feelingmasculinity. But the last thing they want to do is isis go be vulnerable. And and so it it really creates this space of like I'lljust stay isolated and I'll have my addiction soothe me and take care of me or whatever. Um and that's where thingslike group therapy um retreats where you connect to other men and really have notjust talk about your problems but have experiences of brotherhood and acceptance and love. um in yourvulnerability create massive shifts for for you and and I love how you're talking about it,John, because you can hear it and uh you know, you might connect with him everyother week, but we know what you're talking about. You have that brotherhood where it's like, hey, we love each other. We're there for each other. Umand uh we support each other. So, John, I I've got a got a questionfor you and I'm kind of Brandon just kind of like set this one up for me, but you know that we have an upcoming men'sconference happening on September 23rd through the 25th in Bear Lake, Utah. AndI know that you've been to actually a couple of our retreats, but I would like for you to maybe just speak to the men'sretreat specifically for any of the listeners that are listening right now. And a after havingheard what they've you've just said about connection and vulnerability and courage,could you just speak a little bit to your own experience with the retreat that you attended and any key principlesor takeaways that were impactful for you as part of your journey?Sure. Yeah. Uh it has been a while ago, but umwhen when that opportunity came up, I was pretty pretty excited about it and pretty intent on going and doing that.And then uh when it came, excuse me, when it came down to it, I think my u myshame kind of stepped in and was like, what what are you doing? You know, what do you think you're g this isn't going to solve anything. And it was even worsemaybe right when I got there and I I don't know what I was expecting, but I kind of thought that I'd look around andsee people I knew and and there was a couple, but there were a lot of people I didn't know. And then here I was right back in that place of um I wonder whothese guys are, you know, and I wonder what these guys are going to think of me and what have I gotten into and uh inthis situation. But it wasn't very long um and it started to just becomecomfortable again. But we we did some things u as a group and we paired offand did some activities and um and some of the stuff was u physicallychallenging. some of the stuff was, you know, put you in a vulnerable place to think about where you've been in yourjourney in recovery and and so you're putting in a difficult in a diff put in a difficult space emotionally uh toshare this with new people. And it's interesting just how quicklyum you get a few guys together that are intent on the same goal and have similarbackgrounds which I think probably you could take any group of men and inside of 48 hours you probably could see thisform just from experience I know but especially when everybody's there withthe intent to uh to find something to grow something u and just to step in, you know, and theactivities, uh, some of them seemed, um, maybe a little more corny and thensome of them seemed a little just trying to find the purpose. The ones Tyler ran were the corny ones.But it was interesting. I remember just like a we had like a just a an obstacle course where you're trying to get fromone place to another. There was kind of like the hot lava game where you can't touch but you had islands that you hadto get from one to the other but you had to get the whole group there and to watch the process of each person in thegroup needing to take on a role that is their role because we do we each uh weeach find things where hey I can be useful because I am whatever and one of the guys was just their role was just tobe encouraging to the rest of us trying to figure this out and natural leaders uh emerge in the groupAnd then there's this sense of uh helping one another uh to accomplish thegoal. And even though it was kind of a simple could have been like a backyard game you'd play with scouts orsomething, we came out of it with meaning and with connection to one another. These are guys that just met.Some of us hadn't met before. And uh I still bump into some of those guys eventhough they're not in my regular circles. And uh I still feel feel some connection to them. And I rememberanother activity we had where we were we were um kind of it seemed like paired off or maybe a group of three with somegoals in mind and just that uh feeling of hey I'm not on my own but I got acouple of guys we were here here with me and we've got to get from point A to point B and accomplish these goals anduh just that pride of uh maybe getting the competition. I think guys reallylike competition. I know I do. And uh like my raetball friend, he doesn't wantto keep score. To him, that's not the purpose. But I'm like, well, yeah, but I'm still beating you, you know, becauseto me, that's but it's part of that bonding, you know, to wrestle wrestle what one another and and uh and thenstill it's not it doesn't pull you apart. It actually pulls you together in that friendly competition. So, it it wasa powerful couple of days. Um it it was fast in that how quickly those bondsform and it kind of just answers that question. Hey, am I enough? Yeah. For these guys, I came out and I stood upand I was enough and even just in a small way. So I I think it helped to toanswer those questions in your mind and and step into your vulnerability a little bit. the the uh the the intentbehind those type of things like a retreat is experience is to create ashift because you experience something new rather than just sitting in a therapy office talking about your problems actually to feel something. UmTyler, can I ask you a few questions about the retreat? You bet. Umuh first off, when is the retreat? Rising Sun Conference is September 23rdthrough 25th in Bear Lake, Utah. Yep. Starts at uh noon on on the 23rd.Right. Thursday the 23rd. That's right. Um is uh food and lodging provided.This is this is maybe the best deal we've ever had on one of our retreats because we've had some generous peoplehelp us. So, your housing is taken care of, your food is taken care of. By the time you pay the ticket price, you'regoing to be basically getting free experience from Brandon and I. Um, what is this Christian thing?This is 100% for Christian men working recovery from sex addiction. That's what it's targeting. And it's targeted atexactly what John's question was today, which was connecting the masculine heart to your recovery. actually going deepinto those places in your inside yourself and finding some of the answers to those questions that we all have asmen and it's there as you said Brandon as an experience. Yeah. So, and Jesus Christ will be apart of that experience 100%. Um Okay. So, where and how do you sign up?Okay. For anyone who's interested, we have a few slots left. It's rising sunconference.comand it's rising sunso nconference.com. And it's really easy, right? Once youget there, you Once you get there, steps, scroll down, sign up. It's $1,000 rightnow. There's a discount code for anyone who's currently in treatment with you or I, Brandon. Uh either way, it's aphenomenal deal. Yeah. Um is is Okay, maybe a couple morequestions. Is space limited? Yes, we've capped it off at 30, man. Yes. And once we hit that 30, it's done.So, we're full at 30. So, I would say if if you're interested, get on it now. Um,this is the first time we've really promoted it on the podcast. So, it will fill up. So, hurry and andreserve your spot as soon as you can. Great. John, I um I appreciate you beingwilling to come on. I know that even today was probably a step of courage for you with where you're at in your ownpathway. Um, for those for those who are listening and wondering, maybe they'reback to your spot nine years ago where they maybe haven't even been found out yet or they've just barely haddisclosure day. What what would you say to them have been some of the mostimportant principles that you've been able to learn that you've been able to apply to your life that might helpsomebody else see that there's a pathway through this? I I think probably and I've been askedthis question before and my go-to answer is probably the connection is key. Um,and I and I know that that's still in my mind uh a big part of it forming thoserelationships and um that's just going to allow you to havesome borrowed strength maybe that's that's outside that you don't feel but that you can gain when you have thoserelationships. Um, I also think it's important to justjust kind of jump in. Um, take whatever step it is that you can takeand and then give yourself permission to push a little bit and to uh maybe putthe effort in that's above and beyond what you thought you could. We find out most people can do more than theythought they could. I find that out in myself. It's still part of what I have to use. have to draw on that idea. I'mnot feeling the strength right now, but I know that I have it. So, go ahead and push for it. Um, I think that probablyone of the things I'm thinking is really important right now, um, is just that compassion for yourself, that ability tolove yourself, to to have that compassion. Probably one of the most key things to me in this was to be able tolook back at the child I was and feel some compassion for that little guy uhthat was broken at the time that he was or the times that he was and go, youknow what, he was just a little boy and he didn't know any better and he was doing the best he could and and to justlet go of the shame that I feel about those childhood experiences that have kind of set me up on a little bit of apath for failure. And so just the ability to go, you know what, little guythat was me, you're an all right dude. And uh just have some space for thatcompassion for yourself. John, I want to say it's uh I I reallyappreciate you and it's kind of fun for me because I don't see you that often.So I get the I get the privilege of kind of from the outside all of a sudden I Irun into you and it's like holy cow like so much growth so so much progress and maybe you don't see that because day inand day out you know you're just in the grind of it but when you take an outside look it's like wow you're you're verydifferent from the the first day that I met you. Um it's like Tyler's daughter. I haven't seen her in three months andshe's grown like a foot and a half. Um um but Tyler's like, "What do you mean?"Like, I'm like, "No, she's grown a foot and a half." Um it's that that's whatI'm seeing in you, John. So, keep it up. Just keep doing what you're doing. Um you you are also a warrior for for truthand good. So, so keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. I'm going to try.John, thanks for coming on. Um, for those of you listening, if this made a difference for you, please share it withthose who you might also think might make a difference for them. And we look forward to seeing some of you at theretreat. All right, we'll see you guys later.[Music] [Applause][Music]Hey,hey, hey.[Music]Hey, [Music]hey, hey. Heat. Heat.[Applause] [Music][Applause] [Music]Heat. [Music] [Applause][Music]Heat.[Applause] [Music]