What if my spouse and I differ with our direction in faith?

Intro

What if my spouse and I differ with our direction in faith?Brandon, what's going on, man? Uh, just I don't I don't know. Just oneday at a time, you know, what's going on with you? He had a kind of an just a cool umnormally my daughter doesn't like to like my youngest daughter doesn't like to hang out with me much anymore because she's in that space where like she'drather hang out with her friends or her boyfriend or whatever. And this Saturday she had no plans luckily somehow and Iinvited her to go up into the mountains with me to check our trail cameras for the the animals that we're watching forthe upcoming season. And she came with me and not only did she come with me, ittook a while. I think there's like this little like tech barrier where you go on a hike for like the first half hour yourkid goes through like withdrawals and they just kind of ignore you for a while but then she started to open up and talkand for the next like four hours she just talked and talked and talked. Oh wow. And uh she even said at the end of itthat she enjoyed her time with me. So that was an awesome weekend. Oh god. Yeah. You had a great weekend.Good job. Notch that one up. You know save that one up in the archives cuz anyAll you had to do is get her out in the mountains. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what the mountains do. I've always said that it seems to me thatthere's nothing too big that mother nature can't hold.You get your kids out there and let them let them let nature do the work. So, well, I think especially in those times,you know, teenagers and, you know, when they they're not going out of their way to talk to you. Um, somebody told meonce they said, "Do two things with your teenagers. get a hot tub because they'reforced to sit there in with you and they loosen up and so they'll start talking and they're in there with you.Most most parents are too afraid to have a hot tub for what the kids do when you're not home. Well, that too. Yeah. Yeah, that that'strue. But or or uh or get them into skiing because they're forced to sit ona ski lift with you and they're having fun and they're in nature and and I found that one to be really true. So, Idon't have a hot tub right now. Maybe I need to work on that. But you did a ski pass, which is awesome.

Valerie’s Approach

Yeah. So, um, Tyler, I don't want to waste any more time with you. Um, I I'mjust kidding. But, uh, I have one of my favorite people here, so I want to get into itwith her and and get into the topic we have. So, um, we have Valerie Hammackerhere with us today, and she um, we have a lot in common. her and I arepodcasters and platform builders and also therapists. So, um we've uh justjust connected through podcasting and then have become friends and help each other in our work. And she has built anamazing platform and is helping so many people. And I'm going to let her talkabout what she has going and what she's doing. Um, but I just want to introduceher to the show and I'm really excited about the content that we get into today. So, Valerie, welcome to the show.Hey, Brandon and Tyler. I am so grateful to be invited to be here with you both.And Brandon, I mean, I don't know you Tyler, so sorry. I'm going to just kind of focus on Brandon for a second, but Brandon, you are so near and dear to myheart. You have been one of my most important professional mentors, and you become a dear friend. And because ofthat, as he knows and you are now all going to be learning, I when I am in a pinch professionally,unfortunately for him, he's one of the first people I call. So, well, as Tyler knows, so Tyler runs alot of groups and Valerie runs a lot of groups. Uh, group dynamics are arecomplex. You never know what's going to happen. And so, it's really important to have support. But could you talk aboutyour groups that you run, Valerie, and what you have going? Yes. So, I am as as uh Brandonmentioned, I I am a a licensed professional counselor. And my workstarted sort of just traditionally running a private practice, which I loved. But, uh, oddly enough, Brandon ispart of even the evolution of my professional life. We together decided to start the Latterday Struggles podcastand the universe kept him around for just long enough to uh sort of launch me into that spaceto get out of our way. I needed to get out. So, I wouldn't have ever done it without you though. I mean, I've realized and heand I have actually processed this quite a bit. I would have never had the courage to do what I have developed uhby myself. But with him by my side and our kind of I don't know manifestingwhat we felt needed to be out in the world uh it happened. And the Latterday Struggles podcast has oh I have losttrack but it's it's well over a million uh downloads in in the three years it's been around. uh and it's become really

When One Partner Changes

my passion project and I do some consulting. I also run several groups.Uh this platform is based on my understanding or my my my my passionthat human beings can evolve and growand change their relationship with their faith but find peace in connection with it in some way, shape or form. This isin the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I really want to help people that are in afaith crisis come to a place where they feel likethey're not in crisis, but they're evolving and growing psychologically, even um emotionally, relationally, andspiritually. And in so doing they find themselves capable of being in apeaceful relationship with the church in a way that works for them whether it is inside or outside of affiliation. I Ifeel passionate that faith is such a deep part of ouridentity that it's something that we have to navigate uh bearing in mind all of the complexity of it in and in theLDS church specifically. It's very relational. It's very cultural. And so Ithink that might be uh why I care about this. And then I guess something that'sleading into hopefully our discussion. I mean I know I know it's about our discussion today is I uh my my primarylove before I even entered into faith crisis is I am trained as a as a relationship therapist. I uh reallyreally feel strongly about uh couples counseling, marriage counseling, family dynamics and um as such I work with alot of couples or well sometimes it's two both both partners, sometimes it'sjust one partner but uh trying to preserve and enrich a marriage that isgoing through a really traumatic um shift in in what the relationship meansand how to define a healthy relationship. And so I do that through my groups. Uh I do this through someclasses that couples can take uh that are asynchronous um from my website.Gosh, what else do I do? The coaching. I mean, it's just it's for individuals, but it's also for couples and just it'sit's really rewarding because people can actually overcomethe overwhelming I don't know. It feels like people'sidentities almost crumble when they go through a faith crisis. And then of course their marriagesstruggle deeply, too. But people can get better and they do and they and they become more capable of thriving asindividuals and couples than they thought they were uh able to and sometimes they're even healthier thanthey could have ever imagined. So that's probably enough of a spill to get us started about me.That's that's awesome. We're we're glad to have you here, Valerie. And I think today's topic is going to bereally pertinent for a large portion of like what we do and a lot a lot of our clients are trying to climb out of sometype of an addiction or some kind of a betrayal, some kind of trauma that they've experienced. And it seems to bethe case, and Brandon, you can speak to this if you feel differently about it, but it seems to be the case that a lot of times when we get into like therecovery world from either trauma or addiction, there's always the target that they're working on, which is thebehavior they're trying to stop or the the trust they're trying to rebuild in the relationship. But it seems thatalmost always there is a concurrently running sort of wrestle with or development with

Fear in the Relationship

faith, God, spirituality. And that part doesn't quite get spokenof as much as the the bad behavior or the betrayal that happened, even thoughit's a massive part for both the individual and the couple as they're trying to climb out of the hole thatthey found themselves in. So, I think this is going to be really pertinent for a lot of people to be ableto talk about the wrestle with faith and um especially as it relates to relationship today.Yeah. Yeah. Sounds great. If I could ask um well before I ask this question, Ijust want to say on Valerie's like her content and and her groups and what she does likeValerie, I think you you do such a good job at embodying um in on your platform what you teachcouples. So like you you're not trying to push somebody one way or the other tostay to go like you really model healthy differentiation and attachment and andand promote that in what you do. And a lot of times people don't want to do that, right? They're overattaching andthey're um and so I you know like tolisten to Latter- Day struggles that's not going to keep you in the church or out of the church. Um, it's gonna helpyou understand yourself better and who you actually are. Um, so my question,Valerie, when you see couples start to or let if you see an individual in arelationship start to expand, um, what are some of the common thingsthat happen um, within a relationship when change starts to take place interms of spirituality and religion? I think that what I notice is first of allfear enters in and of course that can show up in any number of behaviors but sometimes it gets aggressive other timesit gets silent and what's happening when one partner startsto evolve is they are kind of outside of their own consciousness redefining theterms of the relationship and that is legitimately terrifying andso when I meet with either a a partnership or even one individual andthey're starting to talk about the distress that they're experiencing. I I feel that the very most helpful thing todo first of all is to legitimize like this is distressing. It's distressing to you, but it's also incrediblydistressing to your partner because everything to them did seem to be

Feeling Betrayed

rolling along exactly as planned. And I I mean I say this a little bit like you know tongue and cheek jokingly but it'slike you did disturb the you disrupted something. Yes. It's real. You did that. And I'm notsaying there's a problem. As a matter of fact I'm on the team of like evolution is good. It's important but what it doescause especially before everybody kind of knows the new terms of engagement is it is distressingclear over to traumatizing. And so to make that not only real, but toexternalize that and to allow that to be the case without blaming anybody as ifit's like somebody's done anything wrong, I think is sort of the first thing to to think about.I could see that being really really validating for a partner who feels like they they didn't do anything to changethe system. You know, the system like I I hear that it's almost like they feel like they're it's unfair. Like, hey, wewe had an agreement. We were going to live this way. we're going to do it this way. We're going to do this. And now all of a sudden, you're stepping out of that. That does feel like its own formof betrayal in some ways. And they get caught up in that place of likelack of justice, lack of fairness. How do you help a partner on that side of itstart to navigate that other than just bringing it out into the open? Yeah. I I feel like to preface myanswer, one of the things that I've noticed or at least I'm grateful I've become more grateful for is that I spenta really long time most of my life as a very traditional believing conservativeChristian person and therefore it's not too much of a leap for me to havecompassion on what their lived experience is. And something that I amalways really really paying attention to as I look at faith journey because I amprog growth. I'm pro spiritual levels of development. I mean I I love that paradigm and I love to see somebodygoing on a faith journey but at the same time I don't ever want to lose track ofmy compassion for and my understanding of how scary that is for a relationship.And so it's like my relationship um healing training also sort of plays areally big part in having compassion for that that partner that's in a verylegitimate place in their own faith development. They are where they are for the for veryimportant and relevant reasons right because everybody goes on a journey at their own like pace. So, I try reallyhard to get the buy in of both partners to help them both feel that I I'm nottrying to like fix you or change you, right? In terms of like you need to believe this or you need to move quicker

Beliefs vs. Values

in your development. And that is in and of itself kind of a tricky dance because I also am sort ofprogrowth and development. The the thing that I have an awareness of that I'm sure you both do too is the more one tries to like pressure somebody to bewho they're not, the more they actually end up getting stuck. And so what I want towork with uh what I want to work on with people is to learn how well two things and thenyou can take it whatever direction you want is I I I shift the paradigm away frombelief and towards values and also I think it's really importantto help the couple recognize thatintimacy does not need to be about being the exact act same, but it can beabout honoring the growth of one another. And therefore, it means that they probably do need to redefine whatis a healthy relationship because in earlier stage faith, healthy relationship means believing, thinking,feeling um and in some ways affiliating the very very same. And so that has to actually kind of be thrown out a littlebit. And I don't I wouldn't say it that directly to a a couple, but they have to redefine how what does a healthyrelationship look like? because it doesn't look like probably what you thought it was going to look like when you came together cuz most of the timein in couples come together because they have so much in common. That's not unusual, but it's also not unusual forthem to grow in different ways or to grow at different paces. So, okay, we got to slow down a littlebit because you just said a lot. Um, sure. And so, I I just want to flush this outeven more. So, um, one of the first things he said was differentiating between belief and values. Um, like whatlike what do you mean? What what is that? Yeah. So, I think there's some almostlike some implicit agreements that couples make assuming they come together because their faith journey matches, youknow, they're on the same page, per se, right? Mhm. And so they come together with thesehopes and dreams about how marriage life and family life is going to unfold. Andoften times it's very much embedded in their cultural system of belief, whatever that is, you know, Latter-daySaint, Catholic, Protestant. And they it's almost like they imaginewhat markers are going to be unfolding as their livesunfold that kind of help them sort of see themselves as being successful orbeing happy. And they also probably imagine, you know, like big picturerituals, but also smaller, you know, say for example, family prayer or uh christening or baptism or like certainthings that they just we do this without even thinking about it. We fantasize about the future.And in some ways when somebody starts to evolve,that's where we have to externalize what are the hopes and dreams that I kept within myself that are based on likebeliefs. Say for example, baptism that as long as everybody, you know, we get the children christened or baptized orwhatever, then we are going to be a happy successful family and we're going to be secure in ourselves because webelieve in the same God and the same, you know, religious background and then we're going to be okay. And what we have

Redefining Healthy

to do is actually we have to talk about what are those things that you internalizedum about what it means for you to be a healthy, happy, successful marriage orfamily and then decide okay instead of that because that seems to be changing.Why don't we look at the values that drive your desires such as to stay withthe baptism idea. baptism, you'd probably have to find out what that means to them. But then supposing itmeans um faith, um uh love, compassion,trying to live a life that is aligned with um a higher power and say, "Okay, supposing we have to take baptism outbecause it doesn't work with the both of you anymore for whatever the reasons are. How can the both of you stillacknowledge and see within yourself and share with the partner that that hasn'tchanged? As a matter of fact, maybe it's stronger than ever. It just it needs to look different because it isn't asaligned uh with an organization or with a system that is familiar to both of youor that even um is something that the both of you can kind of sort of like uh get behind in the same way that you usedto be able to. So, we're trying to expand their capacity to see that theyare in fact still in love with the same person. And maybe that personbelieves or sort of has a different belief system, but the thing that I fell in love with you for, you're manifestingin a different way that's going to show up differently, but you're not as scary and foreign as I thought you werebecause I'm not keeping our relationship simple. I'm letting it be more complex, not around just beliefs, but aroundsomething larger like a value system. Mhm. I'm I'm wondering just kind of havingthis thought go through me. I don't know why, but maybe you can speak to this a little bit. I'm just thinking about howhard people work in trying to develop their faith and the structure thatwhatever the religion is that they're living in helps to sort of providescaffolding for that. It seems like we as human beings, we tend to want to work towards a place of security and safety,including inside of our faith. And then when this happens, it almost kind ofpeels the scab off and and helps us realize that we live in an actual world and the way that we are as human beingsis that we're con that change is constant. And yet we've spent so much time actually trying to make this thingpermanent. uh that it seems that part of theI'm thinking of our clients our the clients that seem to do best is the ones who wrestle with this to a point wherethey start to accept that the development of faith is going to be an ongoing thing until we die. Andthat's not a bad thing that that's actually part of a necessary part of the growing process as a as a as a whole

Safety in Structure

human being. And that might stay inside of the same church that I was born in, but that might also include other kindsof detours in other places. But it's the acceptance that that development has to keep happening rather than trying towork to a place of security and then saying set it and forget it.Yeah. Does that does that make any sense at all? Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense.And I mean, again, back to the compassion part, like I think thatthere's very valid reasons why uh sort of the the a church system createsstructure in a chaotic universe. And especially when you're entering into anintimate relationship and forming a family, there are so many unknowns. And I think for for that reason I givemyself even grace at how many years almost I could almost say decades maybeI could say decades actually that I stayed sort of like safe in the uh thethe the structure and it might even say the constraints of a of a system thatdid help me understand how to be a mom andhow to do family life and and so it's it'simportant for us I think to realize that from a developmental perspective having that structure the safety comfortbelonging that comes from that phase of one's development uh it's very secureit's it's it can be for many security inducing and therefore when the moreconservative or the more traditionally believing partner sees their partner departing from that it brings up a lotof chaos, especially when the tradition itself pathizes growth. And I thinkthat's another barrier that makes this um exponentially harder becauseeven though someone may be on a a faith journey in a marriage and they're not manifesting any high-risisk behaviorswhatsoever, it's almost like what they're um even talking about feels as if it's uh thereare red flags associated with this. If you stop believing inside of this paradigm, inevitablythese other several things are going to follow because that's often times what people have been socialized um tobelieve. And so you have to almost like the partnership has to establish something uh that sort of transcendsthese constraints because the tradition has sometimes taught them that either explicitly or implicitly because it is

Growth Seen as Threat

less I mean if we're going for just safety then sure stay in stay inside that system and keep yourself small andand keep you know don't do the growth but that's I don't think why we're here as individuals or in this life. We'renot here to stay safe. We're here actually to grow. And the greatest um manifestation of I think of um ourpotential as spiritual beings is actually to to have the courage to groweven when it means pushing um pushing against a little bit of what the culture says is pathological about our growth.I think I mean to be to be honest I I I love everything you're saying Valerie. Iagree with everything you're saying and but at the same time like we're taughtlike our eternal salvation in in some ways is on the line like you know I think of like me Jenny and Jesus we'relike fused together and and like do you know what I mean? And and and likethat's what I was taught and now I look at it more like look me and Jenny are standing on our own two feet and g Iknow Jesus and she knows Jesus in our own way. Um, butlike I think that in many ways we're conditioned to be quite codependent andquite overattached with our spirituality. And when we get into relationship, wethrow that relationship in as more evidence of of spiritual like oneness.Um, and so I think it's really hard to diffuse this. It's it's really difficultbecause a believing member is like you're trying to differentiate here. Like that's the opposite of what we'resupposed to do as spiritual beings. Like we're supposed to galvanize even further, connect even more, and becomeeven more one with God. Um and so it's it's a ch it's it's really a shift inparadigm to actually then fall into these really good healthy practices asindividuals in a relationship, right? Yes. And I thinkto to some degree I I normalize the distress in a in a relationship thatis going through this because what you're describing is undoing on a goodday and completely and totally traumatic on a bad day. And I think what it also does is that exposesinherent weaknesses that the marriage has always had. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.Yeah. in terms of the growth and development of the partnership, but that they have been able to sort of keep atbay because they've always leaned on the faith as sort of their stabilizing

Faith and Codependence

force. And now that one of the partners is pushing up even against that, itsometimes feels like they're they finally are out of their depth and they they don't have any more resourcesanymore. And so I I try to help the relationship or the partnership recognize that like okay this is goingto be really really really hard because you are completely redefining the terms of your relationship and this is goingto put a spotlight on some of the things that have not yet been dealt with in terms of your growth and development asindividuals and as a couple and that's okay like we can work the problem and we can deal with this but ultimatelypartnerships do need to gain some degree degree of critical awareness and I doput a lot of the I mean I don't again this wouldn't be explicit but I I'm grateful that I have a massive amount ofcompassion for the person that is not on the faith journey still like becausethey are being asked to evaluatesomething that they didn't really sign up for like they're looking they need to be able to to handle a lot of growththat they didn't sort of on their own terms and try to make space for the depth oftheir belief while holding the tension of the fact that there is a depth of love that ispressuring them to be pushed beyond probably what they're comfortable with. And I've seen it go both ways because itis a huge amount of pressure to say this marriage matters enough that I can lovemy partner and learn how to redefine what intimacy is, what uh connection isin terms that I am not familiar with, not even really all that interested in, but I really love her or him andtherefore I'm going to try it and it's going to be it's going to be tough and be thrust into trying it.Exactly. And I feel so that's hard, right? Because for for that person that's not yet on the faith expansionjourney by default, it's working for them like where they are, right,is working or they would probably be wrestling more. And I think that needs to be appreciated because we don'tgenerally grow unless we're thrown into or thrust, like you said, thrust into some pretty deep discomfort that that

A Healing Story

something isn't working. And if it is working for that person, then really the person on the faith journey becomes likethe one that's thrusting them into it. But it's easy to sort of point your finger at them and say, "This is your fault because you're doing it wrong."And yeah, I'm thinking about just like all the biblical stories of call being called orthrust into the wilderness, you know, and what those journeys are that they go on. And those journeys are actuallypretty rough. I mean, before before they get to whatever you would call the promised land or or anything else, I'meven thinking of Israel, you know, Jacob becoming Israel, the name, the meaning of his name is one who wrestles withGod. That's how he got his new name was was the wrestle itself.Um, but but what you're saying, and if I'm hearing this right, is there istension as a result of being thrust into the wilderness on both partners inside the relationship, whether one chose itor not. And then it becomes either something that will inevitably tear everything down, shatter identities,maybe break down the whole marriage eventually. Some people have that happen. It's pretty common. or what I'mhearing you say is it becomes an opportunity to actually both be willing to step inand learn to communicate differently to understand one another differently to wrestle together with each other and indoing so that is also for some couples an opportunity to actually deepen theirrelationship not only with God but with each other. I mean that's is that's kind of what you're saying. Yeah, that's beautifully said, Tyler. II mean what kind of comes up for me as I'm listening to you is a couple of experiences I've had uhpeople that have actually shown up on my podcast because I wanted them to break down what happened because they were oneof those couples uh that were nearing the end of a marriage because inthis case he just was so deeply devoted to his faith and it worked. for him andshe was on a growth journey and yet they were both so incredibly sincere.And as I interviewed them, spent several hours trying to understand them and alsofor the sake of my my listening audience, two things emerged that felt really key to the their their ability tobecome this in incredibly beautiful, thriving marriage. Number one is the gentleman, the more traditionallybelieving partner, finally was in enough pain that he stopped resisting the process. Partlybecause he said, "If I were to be totally honest, my wife was psychologicallymore healthy than I'd ever seen her before." Now, that is not always the case, right, on a faith journey.

Ongoing Faith Growth

Sometimes people, you know, move into some some places that I wouldn't define as psychologically healthy, butoftentimes they as they're evolving, if the faith journey really does expand into something that is growing the soul,they are becoming healthier. And so this this gentleman was watching that and he was allowing himself to be honest withhimself. The other thing was is he leaned into his faith, which sounds paradoxical, right? Mhm.But he leaned into his faith and he said, "The core of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as I understand it, is love.And I am going to choose to manifest that love because one thing I do notbelieve and never will believe is that God would want me to choose to walk away from this beautiful woman in my family.And so I need to be able to accept her as she isbecause a I see her thriving and b I want to embody the very thing that I've been taught my entire life which is tolove. And for him, that was the turning point in making space for her, which asit unfolds, when she noticed that his heart opened and he started accepting that her journeywas evolution and not apostasy, her heart softened and she was able to makemore space for what he valued still as a more traditionally believing uh uhchurch member in a way that she just really couldn't do it anymore. And so it was the downward spiral actuallyreversed and it became an upward spiral. I love it. That's a beautiful story. I'mAnd it's kind of goes back to what you were saying right at the very beginning about fear that you're looking at both partners that are operating from adefault place of fear. There's no space for that. But when fear like I guess that's what I'm wondering is you kind ofalluded to a few things here but on both sides then how do you help get beneaththe fear and create space where there is some room for that kind of a thing because on both sides fear will shut

Growing Together

that down completely. One of the things that I work with couples on from the gate is first ofall, I want to diffuse the the heat ofwhat's going on in in the the you know, what feels like their their marriage sort of like slipping away from them.And I will focus before we talk about any of sort of the heavier stuff is I Itry to help them remember why they chose one another in the first place. Becausesometimes when this uh emerges, when somebody's faith exper expansion experience emerges, it actually sort oftakes center stage and it becomes it almost monopolizes uh the psyches of theof the couple. And so I try to sort of like shift that to the background and bring back to the foregroundcharacteristics uh and attributes that they love in one another. And that for me, I'm doing that for two reasons.Number one, I want to remind them, but number two, I start to be able to assess what is the strength of this marriagefundamentally. Like, do these people like each other? Like, do they have things in common? Uh, do they enjoy oneanother? If you put aside the distress that they're in, and oftentimes they almost, even if it's just for littleflashes here and there, you see love, you see camaraderie, you see friendship.And so, that is one of the things that I do. And I try to remind them also likewhen have you been through hard things before that you were able to overcome because keep in mind as I mentioned aminute ago sometimes these people have overcome incredible distress they've overcome death or financial over youknow turn and and they were able to do it because it didn't it didn't interfere with their identities around faith. Andso it's like, okay, you have that skill set. Let's draw upon that because youare overcomers and you like each other. And then the last thing I'll say and I'll pass it back to you all is I I tryto shift away from content and really help the couple learn how to lean intoprocess, which is let's not talk about theological issues or doctrine orwhatever. Let's talk about what each of you are feeling in the context of this seismic shift in your relationship. arewe? Because again, they find if we can really focus on that, they have far more in common than they have different. Bothof them are generally afraid. Both of them are feeling lonely. Uh both of them often times are feeling uh guilt orshame. And so if we can lean into like what does the experience of being inthis marriage feel like? It neutralizes the heated topics around sort of liketheology and things like that. and they can both lean into something that oftentimes they're more comfortable with, which is I love her or him and Idon't like the idea that she's lonely or afraid. I want and I am too. And like how can we spend our time talking aboutwhat this feels like as opposed to these nebulous issues that just in some wayscauses like more um separation or distress or or u an inability becausethey get out of their depth in like topic like content topic issues. So,it's less about like, you know, trying to prove to each other who's right and who's wrong and and more about likecompassionately seeing them and their process and where their hearts at andand and being a safe space for that on on both sides, right? I mean, simplyput, that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Exactly. And and and I I'm very carefulto say like this is an equal opportunity experience for both of you. Like we're not talking about who's right and who'swrong. Like whose side one needs to be on that somebody needs to sort of change positions. What we're talking about issomething that brought you together in the first place, which is I choose youbecause I love you and I care about this relationship and this relationship matters to me notwithstandingthese forces that are pulling us apart. and then they can kind of draw uponalready existing resources which is compassion and care for this person thatI've chosen. And I think that right there in some ways also it's telling,right? Because I think sometimes, especially early on, I I'm having amemory of a a relationship that I worked with where one of the partners basically kind of up and said, "I can't offercompassion to them under the circumstances. Like, I will not. That would be a betrayal of of too much forme." And and to me that's you you have to kind of pause and go okay hold onbecause again what we're looking at is independent of any given topic at thesoul and core of relationship and also incidentally of one's faith uh you know like the foundation of faith itself isabout embodying love and compassion and that ought not to be something that we can sort of putaside um for an ideology and so I will like gently be like, "Okay, well, likesupposing you know you're Christian, it'd be like, well, at the core of your Christianity,what might this look like?" Mhm. And and it my hope is again, not to Idon't want to come on too strong, but I want them to like I want to meet them where they arewhile also recognizing that I am pressuring them just a little bit, right? like outside of loyalty andtowards like compassion and and seeing another's perspective. And I think that's a bigpiece of consciousness development that has to happen in marriages like this is we raise our consciousness to be able toimagine what the other must be feeling like because that is really hard to do in general and it's extra hard to dowhen it's something this core to one's identity or to the identity of what the marriage used to look like is to justimagine what they must be feeling like. Mhm. It it seems, you know, just listening tothat and thinking about couples that I work with, even even my own relationship, maybe thethe difference between process and content, as you're talking about, is that the content often is the thing thathas caused one or both of us some kind of pain or struggle or question or something else.But the discussion that you're saying we would better have is the pain itself that it's causing rather than gettingstuck on the right or wrong of the content part of itself. And it seems to me that the content discussion in someways is the default what feels the safest place and the process discussion needs to havecertain precursors to it to allow that to happen which would be emotional safety, the ability to show empathy, thedesire to be curious with each other to try to get to compassion because any of us can get to compassion for any humanemotion. We have a hard time getting to compassion if it stays up in the nonvulnerable sort of content kind of aplace because my partner might think something that I will never agree to. But if she thinks that thing and itcauses her to feel X, Y, or Z, I can get on board all day long with, oh man, Ifelt discouraged. I felt confused. I felt I get that as a human being. I canconnect with you there, but that would mean I'd have to develop inside myself the ability to lay aside thenon-vulnerable parts and get more vulnerable with the empathy. I think that's like maturity at itsfinest and and strength. Like I I think like what if what if my partner wasreally mad that this microphone was green? Like like just just upset andeven though it's red. Yeah, it's Well, you say it's red. He says it's green,right? And so, she's really, really upset. And for me to be like, well, I want to one fix her emotions and get herout of those because she's uncomfortable. So, I'll just tell her it's red and then that will amp it all up and versus like, whoa, help meunderstand how you're feeling and about it being green and and why why does itlook green to you? and like sit in that with her and really get to know her andunderstand why she views it that way and what feelings she has about it and to just sit there with her, right? Like ththis is hard because in my mind it's so clearly red like and you should just seeit as red and get over all your emotions. That's kind of what you're talking about, right, Valerie? And we're talking about this isn't this redmicrophone is is nothing compared to the energy and the consequences and the justhow big the topic of spirituality is. So you you you nailed it, Brandon, insaying it's it does require this is maturity and this is differentiation andthis is anxiety management maybe at its height because what it's calling forthis truly I think the the the meaning ofactual love which is putting aside all of the anxieties and fears that I haveand in this context these can be like these these are cosmic fears, right? This is eternal life. And to say, okay,this is this is how I'm, you know, this is why I'm scared and why I feel it's legitimate. And to put that aside for aminute, just to truly be with and again to circle back to the foundations ofboth people's uh experience because the faith journey is a spiritualevolution journey. It's about a spiritual awakening, but also the person that's uh more traditionally believing,they're grounding where they are also in um in their belief system in the core ofwho they are and how they relate to God. And so here I'm saying to both of them because you have this in common,although it's manifesting in a way that sort of looks like you're going down two different paths, the core of any of thegreat wisdom figures of any of the great traditions is to pause and embody love.And so can you sit with the other and just get curiousand just ask them questions? Because what we're asking them to do is we're asking them to learn about the actualsoul of their partner. Not the perception, not what we wish them to be, not what they even maybe used to be, butwe're really wanting to get to know the inner dimensions of this of this humanbeing. an interest is very again paradoxical because on the one hand this is really really scary. But on the otherhand if you think about uh the way sometimes people have sort of integratedbeliefs about what this faith journey looks like and all of the um pathizinglike if you stop doing this or start doing this inevitably this is what follows based on the you know thenarrative. As soon as they ask the questions and get genuinely curious, generally speaking, they're going tolearn that that is not the case. Like, they're going to probably like what they hear far more than the stories they'remaking up in their head or what they've heard from other external sources. But what we're calling upon here actually isa skill set that oftentimes people don't have. Right? In early stage faith, humanbeings oftent times don't necessarily like we don'tnecessarily learn at church these deep interpersonal psychological relationshipconflict management skills. That's not we learn about concepts. We learn aboutu beliefs. And so what we're actually doing and that's why I think this has the potentialto be the greatest relationship enriching experience because herewe are learning a skill set that we can only learn by going through the valley of the shadow of something like that andloving the person enough that we get out of our own way and do the scary thing that we don't know how to do yet.I love it. Uh Valerie, so appreciate you coming on the show today. Is there if wehave some of our listeners who'd like to learn more, where's the best place to find you? So, I have there are there are threeclasses that are up and you know ready to go on latterday struggles.com andthere are three more that are done and we're just in the final like putting together and they should be loading herein the next couple of weeks. They are all called the a couple's guide to faith expansion. And actually a lot of what wetalked about here is is covered there where we start really at the foundation of who are you and what are yourresiliencies all the way up to uh helping couples share their faithjourneys. um what has been enriching and what has been complicating so that they can each start to it's almost likecouples in this situation are feeling so much chaos that they need some structure around like how how do I do this I don'tknow how and then the following three so there will be nine total uh is uh mixedfaith family life is how do two partners in different faith um I don't knowpersuasions or different places on the faith journey How do we do this in the context of family life? And um and these all are Icreated them because I care so much about couples and I I see on the ground every day how when someone is on ajourney um our our cultures don't reallyset relationships up to thrive because our our religious cultures oftentimesdon't understand the nature of growth inside of a relationship inside of a family. that it's fine. It's good. It's it's we want this and couples arecapable of growing and thriving through them. Yeah. I just want to reiterate that likewhat Valerie's created is is h, you know, to help you navigate through thisand uh faith differing in your relationship is actually a reallyexciting thing and a really it's an awesome opportunity for some real good connection and growth as a couple. It'snot just a bad thing. like this is not a like this is awesome and Valerie isthere to help walk you through this so that you can thrive through this. Um so go over to latterday struggles.com youcan find her there and Valerie thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate you. It's always a pleasure to be with youand so great to get to know you a little bit better Tyler and hopefully hopefully we'll do more of these. Yeah, it sounds awesome. If this washelpful, please share it and until next time, keep on keeping on. Bye.