What Is Scrupulosity?

2026 is going to be an awesome year. We got some pretty cool stuff coming up. First off, we got Foundations ofRecovery. This is our flagship program. We're starting it in January. This is for anyone, man, woman, or couple whowants to come and reclaim their heart from shame, trauma, and betrayal. We start off with an education on all sortsof principles. Give you the common language. We feed you from a fire hose in terms of all things recovery. It issuch a great start to recovery. And we get to the roots of things, Tyler. This isn't like any other program. Like, thisis our healing journey in process. And Foundations is where we begin. If youlook at the value that you're getting there to kick off a good recovery with all of the right education, all of theright language, and a team to get you started while also being directed by Brandon and myself through the wholeprocess, what a deal. So, we if you're interested, if you're struggling, if you've been wanting to do something fora long time, jump into this. This only comes around every so often and we would love to have you there. Click the linkin the description to sign up for it. And to make it even sweeter, we're also including a raffle for a free pass tothe Radiant Dawn retreat. Anyone who signs up for foundations will be added to the raffle for that free radiant dawnpass. If you're a man and you sign up for foundations, your name still gets entered and you can give that pass awayif you win it to any woman that you want to. So, what you're saying, Tyler, is if you sign up and participate infoundations, you could possibly go to Radiant Dawn for free. That's exactly what I'm saying, which iscrazy because Foundations by itself is already an insane value. Man, I sound so salesy,but it actually is awesome. So, come like come to Foundations. And even if you don't come to Foundations, sign upfor Radiant Dawn. I It's beyond therapy, the best healing experiences that you can have. Click the link below and comejoin us. What is scrupulosity?[Music] Welcome to the Real Talk Recoverypodcast with the Therapy Brothers. We're brothers, we're therapists, and we know recovery. Bring your stories, yourquestions, your successes with real recovery.[Music][Applause] [Music]What is scrupulosity? All right, Brandon, this is a goodquestion. This is going to be a fun discussion today. Uh, scrupulosity is definitely something that a lot of people come into our office withdifferent levels of it. So, that's going to be great. Um, before we do that, I'm just going to hurry and read our reviewfor the day. This is from Shattered to Thriving, and it says, "Highly recommend. I started listening to The Betrayed, Addicted, andExpert about nine months ago, and I've started listening to this podcast after my intake with Brandon. I'm trying sohard to own my own story and the betrayal I've experienced by but but I often find it difficult and filled with shame. Recently, I recommended thispodcast to a co-orker and a patient of mine and they said they couldn't wait to listen. My husband is going to yourrising sun retreat in September and he can't wait. You guys are truly inspiring. Thank you so much for thewoman who came on recently and talked about feeling crazy and being the reason her marriage is staying stuck. you saidwhat I feel most days and it's tough working through but we'll get there. I love you guys.Wow. It's a good one. That's a great one. And it's a great one too for for those kind of who fans ofthe betrayed, the addicted, and the expert. and I I appreciate you for the years that you've listened and and uhyou know, she's kind of transitioned over to this podcast and learning about recovery and and I just want to inviteyou all to transition over to the Real Talk Recovery podcast with the Therapy Brothers. So find us on iTunes andplease go and subscribe over there to to this new podcast. Great. Yeah. Um so yeah, so we have areally good uh question today. We actually have a guest on that's willing to come and share some vulnerability and ask these questions. So Mason, thank youfor joining us today. No problem. Why don't you just uh why don't you justkind of jump in, explain whatever backstory you feel comfortable sharing, and then and then ask your question, we'll have a discussion.Hey, no, that sounds good. Um, just a little background on me. Um, I I wasraised in the LDS faith and I still am an active member of the LDS church. Umand uh during my upbringing I I always wanted to be good as I'm sure mostpeople do, right? And uh um I I becameeventually I became really obsessed with um making sure that I live my religion.But at the same time um I also acquired a sexual addiction. Um, I encounteredpornography for the first time when I was 12 years old. And uh, and it itslowly became a no actually really quickly probably became a a sexualaddiction uh, more so. And then in high school I ended up uh, being physicalsexually physical with with girlfriends and things like that. And um, and thencame the time where it was I was supposed to serve a mission, right? And and throughout throughout my youth, I Iwould go to a bishop and confess my sins and try to be good and try to never do it again. And then and then that um thataddiction and that temptation um I I I would I would give into it again. And uhand finally it got to the point where I was ready to serve a mission and I wentto my bishop and I said, "Okay, I I got to I got to take care of all of everything, right? and I got to confessall my sins and I got to repent so I can be worthy to to go on a mission andpreach what I believe. Um I can't be a hypocrite, right? And um and so I wentand I um I confessed to him and and I Ishared everything I could think of and then he said, "Okay, let's get your papers started." you know, after a fewmonths of a repentance process and um and I kept just remembering details andthings of of oh, I forgot about this part. I forgot about that part. I forgot about this part. And just continuallyrepenting. And my bishop would be like, dude, you're good. Like, move forward. Move on. Remember, yeah, let it go. Youknow, and then I got on my mission. I remember in the MTC I started to feel like, oh, II'm I should be one of those missionaries that goes home right now because I'm not worthy to be here uh because of all of my sins. And umand so I remember confessing and saying, "I don't feel worthy to my MTC branch president." And then I got on my missionand literally every interview with my mission president, including my exit interview, I had remembered anotherdetail of my past or something like that. And I'm like, "President, this is why I have to go home. this is why I'm not worthy to be here. Um, and so Iliterally became so obsessed with Sorry if you hear that. I'm That's Hill AirForce Base if you can hear the I was just going to say a lot of noise. Yeah,sorry about that. Talk about background noise like like F16s and stuff.What is going on? Sorry about that. So, um, so yeah, I just I just becameobsessed with like this is this is why I'm not worthy yet because I I haven't covered this thing. I haven't coveredthat thing. And and it became really obsessive. And every time a mission president would say, "Elder, you'regood. Like, you're doing everything you can. You're good. Just let it go. Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself. Youknow, forget yourself and go to work." And then I began to feel really like on my mission I began to like feel guiltyfor like anytime like I I I felt like I I needed self-care. I could feel thatwithin me. I feel guilty for like if I study for myself and not for the people that I'm trying to teach on my mission,then I'm a bad person. And and so I I neglected myself because I felt like Iwas being disobedient if I if I cared about myself at all because I wassupposed to forget myself, right, and go to work. And so and so that that became a real struggle for me. Like I felt likeI was out there doing everything I could to show God that I loved him and that I care about um everything that he has. Um but at thesame time, I I wasn't really applying his love to me, you know. Yeah. Um and so and so I got off my missionand and I uh because because of my obsession with trying to be obedient, II didn't have any um slip ups or anything with sexual addiction on my mission at all. And soI'm like, "Okay, I'm past that." And and but at at this point, I still didn't even admit or or realize that I had asexual addiction in my life. Um, and then uh and then Iprobably even a couple months after after I got home from my mission, I I slipped up with masturbation. Um, and mywife who I dated before my mission, like right before my mission, when I was going through my parents process, I I Ialways saw her as an example to me and uh just an amazing person. I I definitely married up um in that regard.She she's always just been an example and a and uh kind of someone I'm like I'm I'm the I'm the screw-up. And then Ifound you and somehow I talked you into to marrying me, right? And so um sheactually went on a mission during that mission age change. So she was one of the first age I think she might have been the first group of age changemissionaries to go out and uh and then she she ended up coming home and uh westarted dating again and uh and we eventually got married. And up to this point, I still I still I I was open withher about how I didn't feel worthy. I told her about some of my stuff before in high school, but I wasn't reallyvulnerable with her. Um because I I didn't understand that concept or really processed that concept of vulnerabilityand being honest and and not hiding and all that stuff. So along with this scrupulosity, obsession of confessingwas also this shame and and you know tendency to want to hide and andperfectionism to to want to not let people know that hey I I'm not perfectand and I have issues. And so I but but at the same time I also started toinstead of being obsessed with confessing to a bishop or a church leader, it it's it started to becomeobsessive with confessing to my wife. And it got to a point where we started going to therapy.Um and I was told that I need to be transparent and vulnerable and honest and and so um about 3 years ago I Istarted like trying to just make sure I was perfect in my thoughts and everything like that. And I was told,"You need you need to be sharing you need to be sharing your thoughts because you're hiding, right?" And that's that's what I was told. And so I startedconfessing every impure thought that happened to me to my wife. And that was just keeping us spiraling forever andever and ever. And finally the therapist is like, "Okay, this isn't working. Like you you're you need to you need to onlyconfess when when you're actually entertaining." And then I was like, "Well, did I entertain that thought? Did I entertain that thought? Was thatentertained? Was that entertained?" And so this obsession just just continued continued. And then finally I just Ijust uh we kind of stopped. Our therapist kind of canceled on us. They had some life stuff and then we we'vehad therapists bail on us before and we never really found like a seesat or anything up to that point until justbarely. We started going to adult recovery. Um my wife started meeting with an autotherapistum a few years ago, but but I I actually had a really large relapse in Februaryfor the first time in marriage. I was I was physical with someone else. And uhand that's that's really scary to say um because people are going to listen to this. Um but uhso I I was like, "Okay, I got to crack down and figure out what's going on." because I I would be scrupulous and scrupulous and scrupulous, but then atthe same time, I had this perfectionism where you can't you can't tell your wife this. So, like just just be in denialand and call this your scrupulosity. You know what I mean? Mhm. Um, and so there's a mix that I I'mexperiencing and I'm like, okay, I want to make sure that I'm transparent and that I'm honest and that that I amproactive in in my recovery and and doing the things that that I want to bedoing to find peace and harmony and and uh safety for for my relationship andfor for me. Um uh but I I still find myself being soobsessive in making sure I'm doing all the right things that that I I feel anxiety a lotand I I struggle to to know how I canum manage everything that's going on inside my brain and still be able to to beproactive and honest and make sure that I I'm not in denial. Um, and it's becomethis really difficult thing for me. So, that's that's just kind of that's that's kind of what I've been umgoing through and uh and some of the questions that I've I've had. So,well, Mason, I'm glad I'm glad that you were willing to come on and talk about this and for sharing so much of yourbackstory. I think there's going to be some people listening that will be able to relate to what you're saying for sure. So, um, before before we go anyfurther, I want to just maybe some of our listeners are probably actually wondering what the definition ofscrupulosity is. And so, let's talk about that first and then we can kind of get into like the discussion about yourown situation and and how you might be able to distinguish balancing that I want to be honest, but I also don't wantto be overly triggering and but I also don't want to be in denial. So, um, justa quick definition for scrupulosity here. Uh it's this I just pulled this upon on Google in the in the dictionary. It says scrupulosity is a form of obsessivecompulsivedisorder involving religious and moral obsessions. Scrupulous individuals areoverly concerned that something they thought or did might be a sin or another violation of religious and moraldoctrine. So does that sound like a fair definition for what we're going to be talking about today?Absolutely. Yeah. That's that's exactly what I experience on a daily basis.um as you're describing it, I'm really hearing um just in many ways I don't know whatbetter word to describe it than than hell is I'm I'm obsessive and and have aton of anxiety about being righteous and at the same time I'm I'm numbing out andacting out um because of many different reasons, but one of the reasons isbecause I I I I am caught in anxiety all the time, so I numb out and act out, butI need to be righteous. And it it it's just a shame machine. It's just, youknow, a a self-rejection um to the max constantly. And is thataccurate, Mason? Yeah. Sorry about the planes. Hopefully they'll stop in a minute, butyou're fine. Um yeah, that that's exactly what it is. It feels like I'm going through hell yettrying to be in heaven at the same time. And the more you try to be in heaven, the more you catch yourself in thathell. Right. Exactly. Um it's it's like I forinstance like going to church. I absolutely loathe going to church tobe completely honest with you because I hear things and I hear people say like we need to keep the commandments or wewe need to make sure that we're we're doing these things um righteously andthat we're it's just all these things I hear I take to the extreme in my brainand instead of instead of having some compassion on myself and instead of saying I'm not perfect and we're not allof us aren't perfect I'm hearing you're not perfect Mason and because you're hearing this, you're the only person inthe world that struggles with this or you're bad and you're terrible becauseand so going to church, I have to I have to constantly remind myself you're a son of God. Like I have to givemyself affirmations and and say this is this is the purpose of life. Like Jesusmeant for you not to be perfect. the heavenly father meant for you not to be perfect andthat's why you're here and and this is it's okay like and solike I I'm trying to remind myself that but but for so long I I've struggledwith like this this perfectionism slash slash obsessivecompulsivewanting to be righteous that um that I if I feel like I'm not righteous I haveto pretend I'm righteous And then if if I when I recognize that I'm not righteous,I have to beat the crap out of myself because I'm not righteous. If that makes sense.And that's that's righteous to beat the crap out of yourself. Exactly. Being righteous. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's that's the theweird um phenomenon that I'm dealing with. It's it's crazy to me that thevery thing that our religion is professing for us to do is to provide us with peace and freedom and liberationand and calmness. And yet somehow in the striving of trying to live whateverreligion you are that becomes the your own prison walls for the hell that you're in. And I and I guess I'm justwondering like how is it that these these principles that that most of us would agree are good principles likewhen you go listen to what you you read the Bible or you you do any type of religious thing the principles are goodthings. How does it get twisted? Like where what's the process by which those things get twisted into things that areactually damaging instead of helpful? That's a really good question and I'vewondered that myself. Like I I I I thoroughly believe um in the principlesI I still do. Um I believe that you know the things that Jesus says in the Bibleand like you know uh the biatitudes and and all these things um he said for ourown good and he said for us to to try and better ourselves. But at what point did that becomeyou're terrible and you can't you can't ever be enough and you're not going to ever be perfect. Therefore, you're notrighteous and you're a sinner and you're going to be doomed for the rest of your life. And so, you need to beat yourselfup till you become perfect, right? Um, where did that Yeah. where I don't know. I think there's I think there's uhwhen you talk about the Bible, Tyler, and we were talking about commandments and things like that,um that there's a difference between principles and and shoulds and andrighteousness coming from a place of living the commandments. To me, it's it's quite simple. like there is ananswer to this question and it's love versus fear is is God is love and fearcomes from the adversary. And so like if I'm going to church and I'm telling my mission president everything and I'mtelling my wife everything out of fear, I'm not actually being righteous.Um I'm acting in fear and I'm I'm destroying myself. I'm disconnectingfrom God. him although the things I'm doing look seemingly righteous, right?Um and and there's a word that I heard you I I heard you talk about about it,but you didn't say this word is it sounds like Mason for a good majority of your life, you've tried to earn your wayout of your sins and earn your worthiness. And what you're doing nowwhen you're going to church is you're applying grace. The word is grace is isto love yourself in your being perfectly imperfect,right? And to me, the anxiety piece of it needs to be worked on, but there'ssomething very much underneath what you're talking about. And you say, "I'ma son of God." It it's truly knowing and feeling that reality.And and and when you're when you're confessing to your wife all the time, when you're confessing to your missionpresident all the time, I mean, what what are you doing? Why why do you confess to them?It's exactly what you said. Like the reason I am have become obsessed with confessing is I have this huge fear ofnot being worthy. Like I remember at one point in my life I considered the greatest fear in my life and thegreatest worry is not being worthy. Mhm. And now I'm learning that Mason, you areworthy. You are a worthy son of God. You and and so like um that has that has been kindof a paradigm shift I'm still going through. Um to know that my worth is infinite right now.Are you worth are you worth God's love and your wife's love if you acted out with porn last night?Absolutely I am. you if you cheated on your wife, are you worth God's love?Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's I mean it's really hard for me to say that still.Um because to me it's just like uh Yeah. No, that's but wait. Yeah.Now, is this denial? Are we in denial right now? Saying yes, you're worthy of God's love even if you sinned. Is thatIs that denial? Are Tyler? Are we in denial right now? I I don't think we're in denial at all.We're in truth, aren't we? Like if we actually if we actually profess to believe the Christian principles. I loveBrandon what you said about fear versus love. What is what did Christ say thatthat perfect love casteth out fear? And and then there's another scripture thatcame to mind when you were talking that said that you know God hath not given us the spirit of fear but of power and oflove and of a sound mind. And so so somehow somehow somewhere some way thewires have been crossed. And this is how scrupulosity works. Where we see ourselves as a bad person who can't betrusted, who's trying to be good instead of seeing ourselves truly as a goodperson who's in the human condition, who has the ability to tap into the love andgrace of Christ for the learning that we have to do by the choices we get tomake. Yes. And uh and and somewhere that shifted somewhere somewhere the corebelief system started to believe the fear-based message that probably theshame based message like where did you where did you learn that you were not good enough instead of understandingthat you were good enough because a child comes into the world and a child doesn't know any better. They they have an in they have an ingrained sense ofworthiness until the this world starts to beat that out of them. Yeah. Um that yeah that's happened Masonwhat Tyler's talking like that's somewhere happened to you where you've lost you've lost that understandingand it's some kind of trauma or maybe it was just being raised in the way you were raised and then looking atpornography kind of but you know there's something there where you've lost sight of who youreally are. Yeah. And I've I've done I've done a lot of digging uh in the past couple monthsof trying to just um I mean it's nice to know I mean maybe it's not imperative toknow like where did this start? I mean what's more important to me is changing that core belief I think but um but it'shelpful in in one way to know kind of where where in my roots did this comeabout and and how can I change it and and I think a lot of a lot of what I'd learned and a lot of what was I mean byby no it was you know good intentions but by by no fault of anyone but I remember being in lessons with churchleaders and I remember going to a mission prep meeting where one of the bishops in the stakeum gave the lesson and his whole lesson on this mission prep was if you are not worthy to go on your mission, you getthere, you will come straight home because you will just feel it and you will just feel terrible and and you andand so like all of this fear God instilled in me and like I remember like being in junior high school and andhearing lessons about you need to make sure that if you have serious sins you go and confess them. And so I thinkeventually the way that that I the way that I was taught and I guess the way that I perceived what I was taught um isthat repentance is confessing your sins and then you'll feel good enough.Well, what happens when I confess my sins and I still don't feel good enough, right? I'm like, "Oh crap." So I guess Ididn't confess enough. Um, and so like or I guess I guess there's something else that I'm bottling up or that I'mhiding because let's figure out what it is when in reality I I'm doing everything I can to confessall my sins. And I I remember reading this scripture um that says that is bygrace we are saved after all we can do. And so I take that all we can do. I would for the longest time it would takethat and be like okay so I don't feel saved yet. I don't feel forgiven. So Imust have not done all I can do. Um, and that's that's been a really difficultthing. And and I feel like that perception has kind of been acquired by by how I how I understood what I waswhat I was being taught, my upbringing. I was taught to keep the commandments. I was I was taught to um to to to liverighteously in a way. Um my my parents, by no fault of them either, they they tried to get me to keep the law ofchastity, right? and and and do that thing. And and one of the things they would tell me all the time are girls aretrouble. And and so I I began from a very youngage, even before I started ex sexually acting out, I began lying to my parents if I ever was hanging out with girls atall. Um and so I just I I already felt like I was sinning for the fact that Iwas associating with members of the opposite sex. and and that that kind ofjust that's how I ended up perceiving what God wanted in me,you know. That's that's really interesting, Mason, that I mean, just that last example you just gave is maybe an illustration ofwhat what my question was, which is is that without even meaning to, your parents with really good intentions weretrying to protect you, so to speak, by telling you that girls were trouble. And for a little kid who has no othertemplate other than a little kid's brain to hold that from. He interpreted it as girls or trouble. But then he likedtalking to girls. And then he had to feel like he was hiding. And without even realizing it, thatlittle boy's parents became became God in that sense where now I'm worried ofmy parents' judgment and letting them down and getting in trouble instead ofstaying in touch with the truth, which was that you were a little boy who happened to like being around girls because you're a boy and and that Goddesigned you that way. Here's a here's a question kind of goingalong with that. Um, and it's it's for both you guys and just kind of considering something and we're talkingabout scrupulosity, so I get to preach a little bit, right? So, so bear with me.Um, I want to tell you guys a couple stories, but um my question is is likewe're taught that we need to earn it. We earn some degree of glory that uh it'spredicated on our righteousness. Right. Is that accurate?I mean that's sure predicated. What do you mean, Tyler? Like sure. Yeah, that isI mean that's how most I think that's how many of our listeners were raised and and that's how we interpret it ischoose the right. Choose the right and and you'll earn and you'll earn and you'll you earn your mansion in heaven.Yeah. So So my question is is when Okay. So after all you can do Mason, youbrought this up. after all you can do. When is Christ's atonement sufficient? What when when do when do at what pointdo we not have to atone? We don't have to atone anymore and Christ's sufferingisn't in vain anymore. Um that Christ actually did suffer for our sins. ThatChrist actually did um take that on for us and that's available for us. At whatpoint can we be like, "Okay, like now it's all I can do now like you know Helphelp me understand that guys. Um I have a couple thoughts. Um do you want me to tell you what I've believedfor most of my life or what I'm starting to believe? Both. Both. Okay. So um for most of my life um Ibelieve that there when I would read that scripture there um or or what I think about when repentance in generaland and and allowing Christ's atonement to to heal me in my life. Um, I thoughtthat there's all this like list of things I have to do, like there's this processwhich is a check off list, right, that I have to do um in order for me to accessChrist's atonement. Like I have to confess my sins. I have to forsake my sins completely, whichmeans if I sin again, all the former sins return and then and then I uh have to repent all over again. Um, and thenand then finally once I figure that crap out, then Christ's atonement will heal me.You've earn You've earned Christ's atonement now, right? Now you've earned it. Okay. You're worthy of it. Exactly. I've earned Yeah. I've earnedworthiness. Isn't that Doesn't that that in and of itself fly in the face of the verynature of the atonement? Absolutely. What you're talking about this whole model that you're you're breaking downhere, it it um it essentiallyjust almost like turns its back on the whole purpose of Christ's atonement. Yeah.You know, like uh I I suffered for you. I Isuffered for all your sins and I know everything you've been through, but figure your crap out and then and then I'll help you.Yeah. Yeah.Um my my perception I'm getting now is thatfor instance I I actually did my first session of art therapy yesterday. Umand uh and what I felt I I I was I have a hard time processing everything thatI've done right and and all the things I I see everything I've done and I just like oh my gosh like that's just soterrible. Like I you know, like often times I'll feel a lot of shame because of it. Um, and it's true. A lot of thethings I did I feel like are really bad, but um, but I associate that with me.And and so one of the things I as I was picturing what I was feeling and where I was feeling in my body during this arttherapy um my therapist um who's doingART um Brett Williams at ADO Recovery um he he told me okay cuz I had a hardtime. He said I want you to dive into the mess that you're seeing. And I said okay I'm trying to but I felt someresistance. And so finally he said, "Okay, hand the flashlight you're trying to look at this mess with to theSavior." And um and so he said, "Picture the Savior helping you look at that." And sowhat I did is I pictured Jesus helping me kind of justprocess all of this mess that I am having a hard time processing. But when I pictured him, I didn'tpicture him looking at my mess that was on the floor, right? So, so, you know, metaphorically speaking, um, he was justonly looking at me as if he was saying, "I don't care about all this crap.I care about you, and it's you that I want." And so now, like, like, as asI've been going through um my own healing and my own recovery, I'm starting to realize that the Savior,he's there right now. There's nothing there's literally nothing I have to do for him to be there. Um,yes, there's things that I am going to do to um accept him and to to change mylife, but for me to access his healing and hisatonement, I just have to surrender to him. I just have to surrender it all to him.Yes. And that's that's what he's waiting for. And and that's why like I I think of theother scripture where it says and and God gives men weaknesses they may be humble and men if men humble themselvesthen I'm going to make weak things strong. I'm of the opinion that God has given me my weaknesses. Yeah, I've madesome choices based off those weaknesses and and and I I've used my agency in that way. Butwhen I choose to let God's grace enter my own life,that's when that's when he's going to say, "Okay, now you're now you're getting how to usethese weaknesses." Yes. To to become rather than to just feel like garbageall the time. Yes. Amen. So, yeah, that's that's the perceptionI'm I'm trying to believe, so to say. I'm not going to say that everything I said I 100% am on board and and feelthat way about myself all the time. But that's that's that's the narrative I'm trying to become and and have that shiftin in my paradigm. Do you know the pathway from from living in fear and control to love and power?Do you know do you know what it it requires? I'm curious what you have to say. Um, solike if you're in the state of fear and fear and control, fear and control to the state of surrender, it requiresum courage and faith. It it so sowhen you're spinning and you're confessing things and you're trying to do things and all you're actually notdoing the courageous thing. What's the courageous thing?The courageous thing is to surrender. Um yeah, to choose to choose that humility. LikeI when I think about um God giving me weaknesses and me choosing to humble myself, I I see that the same assurrendering now. Um yeah, I used to be afraid of what surrender meant like, oh, I've got to I've got tosurrender. Like I've got to give up, you know, like that's not that's not what it means. that what it means is turn yourwill, what you think you're supposed to do, um what you think is the right thingto do, what you think righteousness is, turn that all of thatover to God and let God's will become your will. and actually like what God'swill actually is, not what your weird scrupulosity perception of what God's will is, what God's actual will is. Turnthat over to him. Um, surrender. That that that's that's kindof my understanding of that. And that that and that that's what shifts you. That that's where you experiencethe difference between fear and actual acceptance and love. And that's and andin that light, that's when you connect to God. You feel that that affirmation that yes, I'm okay. And and and what'sinteresting, really quick story. I was talking to a guy about this and he was acting out all the time. Just just allthe time. But he would do everything I'd tell him to do. He'd get a sponsor. He'd, you know, go to groups. He'd dothis. He'd do that. And he's like I was like, "Hey, like maybe we need to try something different."And uh and I I dug in with him a little bit and really uncovered some shame. And I said, you know, don't do anything outof shame anymore. Like don't like if you're gonna do something like and yourshame's telling you to do it, don't do it. And he's like he got terrified. Hefelt like if I get rid of my self-rejection and my shame, then I'll I'll never I won't be good. I won't doanything good in my life. I won't like I need this self-rejection in order to be okay. But listen, listen to the likeoxymoron of that. I need self-rejection in order to be good.No. No. And through surrender and letting go and really accepting who youare, you realize I am good. Like I am okay. I don't need self-rejection.That's that's a really vulnerable place to be. Um cuz if youare in that I don't want to say comfort because it's not comfortable but it almost is a comfort of self-rejectionwhere if I can just stick on hold on to this shame right and um and just makethis shame be the reason that I choose good things which doesn't work because you you burn out and then you choose badthings and then you like oh crap you know. So, umum if you if you rely on that the whole time,then it's just it's just not going to work. Like, um yeah. Uh it it it just I don't know how elseto explain it other than it it's just this weird, like you said, it's an oxymoron. But it but it's risky. It's risky tochoose. Okay, I'm going to surrender. I'm going to be vulnerable with the factthat I'm not perfect and and that I have imperfections and mistakes every day. Um, and I'm going togive up that I'm going to do everything I can to give up that core belief that everyone elseis perfect and that I am the only one that's not perfect and therefore I have to beat the crap out of myself till Iam. Right. Right. So the shift the shift that's happening based off what you guys are talkingabout Brandon I think you hit the nail on the head with this idea of surrender is that it's that whole process you knowand in in becoming a new man in Christ right when we are able to fully give ourselves over through vulnerability byallowing our imperfections to be given back to Christ then then we become newin him and the motivation that we now live our lives from is lovebased insteadof fear-based. And you know what? We're going to be doing a lot of the same things that we currently do, but we'llbe doing it from a source of love because we understand and know our place with Christ instead of in order to bewith Christ. And and it's the shift in that understanding of our lovabilitythat's that's the difference. Um I've got a a quote, one of my favorite quotesis from CS Lewis. He's one of my favorite Christian authors and he's got this quote that says, "Give me all ofyou. I don't want so much of your time, so much of your talents or money or so much of your work. I want you, all ofyou. I have not come to torment or frustrate the natural man or woman, butto kill it. No half measures will do. I don't want to only prune a branch hereand there. Rather, I want the whole tree. Hand it over to me. the whole outfit, all of your desires, all of yourwants and wishes and dreams, turn them to me. Give yourself to me and I will make you a new self in my image. Give meyourself and in exchange I'll give you myself. My will shall become your will. My heart shall become your heart. Andthat's the process is that when we get stuck in that beating ourselves up, webecome God and we don't allow God to be God. And that's I think the work is tocontinually bring ourselves back to aligning our heart with the true heart of Christ.Now, it's interesting. I I I don't know if you guys listened to my episode with Dax um a couple weeks ago, but um it'syou could hear kind of he came on saying, "Help help me to learn how to bemore disciplined and do more to be better." Right? And then then the whole episode I gave him like accept yourself,love yourself, see who you really are. Um and and really what I was saying is, you know, let's focus first on your bebefore we we try to use your des to to to get that be right. And umI uh I show this video and I I got it at a boot camp, but it's it's team Hoit.You guys know who Team Hoy is? Mhm. And so, uh, YouTube this and and maybe we can put it in the link in the shownotes, but there's this video. Team Hoy is, um, the son has cerebral pausy andthe dad has run like tons of iron mans and marathons and he's pushed his son along the whole way. And the video is isto the song I Can Only Imagine. And it shows this broken body, this son who'swho's imperfect and just broken. And you know, the music I can only imagine isplaying while the dad is just like pushing him up mountains and swimming across lakes and just like just goingjust just taking him everywhere. And um I get the chills a little bit because when I watch that video, it's such astrong depiction of what's actually happening is we have a a God that lovesus so much and is right there for us all the time unconditionally and we'rebroken. And when we can sit back and let him push us and we can sit back and lethim be there for us, we go places. We do what we're supposed to do. But when wedon't turn our will and our life over the care of God and we take it on ourselves, we push that father, that Godaway and don't allow that to happen. Sothe Mason, this is one of my favorite topics. I I appreciate you've been so eloquent in in flushing this out and Ithink that so many people can relate to to what you're going through and I thinkyou're hitting on one of the core pieces of your recovery and really uncovering this if not the core piece.I think you're right where you should be on the work you're doing. Absolutely. So,I appreciate that. Um, yeah. I I feel like I feel like this hasbeen one of the main struggles in my recovery of trying to figure out and I feel like I'm still in the thick of it alittle bit. But, but I I felt like I wanted to come on here and if if I'm starting torealize that I'm not the only one going through my crap, that there's hundreds of other people going through crap, it'sprobably really similar to other people's crap. And so, um, if that makessense. Yeah. Well, Mason, there's there's a several hundred, if not thousands of people who are sitting right nowlistening going, "Me, too." So, yeah. All right. Appreciate it, guys.Mason, you're awesome. Um, thank you so much for coming on, being vulnerable. You guys, if this triggered anything inyou and uh you want to explore it further, then come be a guest on the show. Come talk to us. Come flush outflush stuff out even more. Um, if you like this episode, remember to share it and please leave us a review. The morereviews we can get, the better. Have a good day, you guys. We'll see you later. Thanks. We'll see you.[Music] [Applause][Music]Heat. Heat. N. [Applause][Music][Music]Hey. Hey. Hey. [Music]Heat. Heat.[Applause] [Music] [Applause][Music] [Applause] [Music]Heat. Heat. [Applause] [Music] [Applause][Music] [Applause] Heat. Heat. N.[Music]Heat. Heat. [Music]