What Is Ultimate Interdependency?

What is ultimate interdependency?What's up, brother? What's going on, Brandon? How you doing? I'm doing good. Um, how are you?I'm doing great, man. Yeah. Yeah. We're getting all geared up for this uh the on at Lovrong. If anyone'sinterested, go check this out. But at Lovrong, I mean, not loving at uh that's my company. um at Reclaim Your Heart,which is our platform, Brand, and we're doing um our signal fire coming up. So, reclaim yourheart.org, go look at it.But, uh we're just putting together all the pieces, and I just went up uh went up to the place where we're doing thefire this weekend with my daughter, and it was just like this blissful experience where she just kind of wasopen and vulnerable and told some of her story with Chase, who's, you know, people who know who Chase is now. But umbut then coming back down, I didn't realize we worked all day up there like getting things in order, getting enoughfirewood stacked, getting like a few other supplies, tried to take it up there. And by the time I came back down,I was spent and I spent the whole weekend like in recovery mode. And it just kind of hit me like how old I amnow and that that I am aging and that death is inevitable.Don't say that. Hopefully you got some time. You know, we all like I think in I thinkI live in denial all the time that I'm still like a like a 25year-old man and like it's actually I'm a like a48-year-old man with 65year-old hips now. And that's just the reality. You're a 48-year-old dude with like150 years of life that you've lived like hard labor.You know who you remind me of? Oh no. John Valjon.Hey, I'll take that. He's like my favorite character of all time. I just think of you and that like it's like your life was in that just laborcamp for like the first 40 years of your life. And now you're wondering why your hipshurt when you hike a mountain in the middle of the winter. It's like when are you going to realizeyou're not Superman? I think we all I think we all want to be. You'll be laying in your on yourdeathbed and you'll be like, I'm going to get up and get my own lunch. Honestly, honestly, that's that's theonly way I want to go out. Like I I got this guy who's like one of my mentors. He's like the most he's like such anawesome mentor to me. He's in his 70s now. He's like one of the very few people ever who has had pancreaticcancer and gone into remission. And like he's in his 70s now. and he literallywent elk hunting with me last year and he hiked straight up a mountain 3 mieach way and he never complained once and I was like how did that guy just dothat? Yeah. And and it's literally just sheer like resolved, toughness and will, you know,there's a balance to that like that that can that can help you live long and that can kill you.Yeah, probably. Yeah, definitely. either way. But that's that's how I want to go out. That's how I want to go out.Yeah. Well, the truth is is we are getting old. Yeah. Um we need to embrace our our age and,you know, just enjoy it as as we eventually die. Yeah.Enjoy the process and be fully be fully engaged in it. We're all in the process of dying.That's what we're doing. So, yeah. Um well, speaking of uh maybe alittle bit happier topics here, um uh let's let's talk about uh really thetopic today is healthy attachment. It's it's like healthy attachment on the onthe biggest level like um you called it you called it ultimate in inter interdependence.Ultimate interdependency which which I really want to explain and I think it'spossible. Um, but there's there's like as weillustrate it, hopefully as we we talk about it, people can see like whoa, like there's whole a whole other level hereof love, trust, safety, intimacy, connection that I may not have thoughtwas even possible. Um, and so let's let's back up a little bit, Tyler, and and explain what healthyattachment interdependency is. We talk about this all the time. Um, but whatlike what is what is interdependency? Yeah. Inter interdependency is thecombination of knowing who I am, being okay with who I am, being able to beindependent, and then choosing to engage in arelationship with something or somebody um for the sake of something bigger thanmyself while offering and and receiving a deep sense of connection.So, man, that was a lot of words, but that was well well put. Um, yeah, go rewindthat like four times. What kind of just said there's a ton of wisdom in, but what the hell did you just say?Okay, let me let me try let me try let me try another one. I know who I am. Iknow who you are. I'm okay being me. I'm okay with you being you. And I want tohave a relationship with you on the level that works for us. That that that way to dumb that down.Is that is that better? That's that's excellent. It sounds so simple now. And yet it's so hard.Like that is so hard to do. We all struggle with overattachment, with underattachment, with all kinds ofthings like that. That's really difficult what you just said, Tyler. Yeah. Oh, I think I think it's waydifficult. And maybe today we could talk a little bit about a couple of the things that make it difficult. We couldalso sort of talk about why it would be important for us to pursue this idea ofinterdependence and what the benefits are. And then you were you had a few kind of thoughts going and as to why younamed it ultimate inter interdependence. Yeah, let's let's do that. So let's back up and and first talk about why whydon't we all just show up this way? If this is what's healthy, what undermines it? what gets in the way? Um why do weend up unhealthy in our attachments? Yeah, I think it's kind of two sides tothat coin, right? In relationships, we want to know that the core relationships we engage in, that the people that we'reengaged with love us, they see us, and that they're there for us. They're not going anywhere. Um, and then on the onthe individual side of things, every one of us living in this kind of world that we live in, we tend to default to abelief that there's something so wrong with us that if people saw it, they wouldn't love us. And so what we end updoing is we withhold our authenticity in order to try to get connection. But thenit robs us of the ability to actually have deeper connection because we can't be interdependent because we don'tbelieve the best things about ourselves. We don't actually know who we are. We don't step into that full independence.And the seeds of this I think are this is my theory, Tyler. I think they're twofold. I think sometimes a soul isborn into this world and they're naturally I I'll just say insecure. they're they're naturally like have ahard time trusting themsel and and and being vulnerable with others. Sometimesthat's the case. Um but usually even more so there's trauma and trauma iscomplex. It's uh it's tricky. Sometimes it's obvious. If, for example, let's saydad walked out on on you when you were 5 years old in your life, that's going to lead to attachmentissues down the road because you experienced significant abandonment as a child. Um, or let's take little teatrauma. Let's say mom mom was constantlyum trying to get you to perform so that she could have worth so that she could tell herself she was agood mom. Yeah. So, she's like getting you. So, so this is little T trauma. That's as as a child, you don't reallyknow what that is. That's just like you're trying to you're trying to you know, Tyler, you're singing the kindergarten song for dad. Umof all you learn here, remember this the best. Do not don't hurt each other and clean up.Yeah, you just triggered me. Um actually, I love it. I love the song.Um but yeah, you're this is just an example, right? Like and it's we couldgive all kinds of little tricky examples of where love gets messed up,um where abandonment happens, where consumption of you as a human happens.And these little subtleties or these big massive events that happen in your life,they trigger a response of I need to I need to do something in order to beloved. I need to make sure that I am loved because attachment is is essentialfor my survival. And so I'm going to respond to this this broken love in away of trying to get love. All of this stuff sets you up. It setsyou up to not be an honest, vulnerable, intimate human being down the road.That's right. And and what you're saying, Brandon, is there is some level of like nature in terms of we all comehardwired a little bit differently to how we receive the messages that come to us through growing up. But all of usgrowing up will have some kind of messaging that could be interpreted as something's wrong with me or I need todo certain things in order to be accepted. And and because as human beings, our biggest fear is is that wewill end up being isolated and alone. That puts us in a weird spot where you go into places and you're being toldjust be happy, being content with yourself, know who you are, like show up. We we say this on the podcast allthe time, Brandon. At the same time that we have this burning feeling inside that says, but I need to be connected topeople. And and then it's this weird dance of some people with attachment,they go outward and they go like, I'm a lone man. I'm a rock. I'm an island. I'm not putting myself into the risk of thatconnection because I know I'm going to get rejected. Or other people, they go the other way and they chase theconnection so much that they end up sacrificing all of their values and never actually getting the connection they wanted. And either one of those isa response to that sort of like fear or desire of needing to be connected. Andyet the best connections happen when I I do know who I am. I am independent. Alittle bit of that like, yeah, I know who I am and I know who you are and Iwant to be engaged with you because the benefit is far greater when we're connected than when we're two individuals.Yeah. Coming back to uh your your your definitions of interdependency.Um it's it's it's like this catch 22. You and I you and I see couples that comeout in the wash of this. So after they get in a relationship in their naive20s, they consume and use and disconnect and stonewall and have addictions behind thescenes and all of that. the consequences pile up and pile over and they end up inour office, right? And a lot of times as you as you examine the situation,you see uh intense independence happening in the relationship or a ton of codependencyor a combination of the two, right? And and they say, "Let's fix the problem."And and uh you and I Tyler sometimes will be like, "Okay, like show up inter interdependent. Here you go. This iswhat you do." Boom boom boom. Right. But in order to show up interdependent,we got to come back to your definition. I know who I am.I trust myself. I know I have worth that's that's not uh dependent upon youloving me. the individual work of shame, resilience and of like understanding and coming tothe conclusion and and acceptance of truly who you are.So what this all suggests is that if you really want to consistently show up asan inter interdependent partner, you need to self feeling some five callsself-confront. Um you need to self-examine and look at this and say what trauma doI need to deal with? um what wounds are there? Uh what protective parts, whatever we want tocall it, what beliefs are holding me back, what beliefs, what all this stuff. What about Ium and my the systems that I live under, the perspectives that I have is making it so that I can't show up as a as ahealthily attached, secure partner um who can show up interdependent. Right. That that really is the work.That's right. That's that's basically what our whole healing journey is based on is the individual side of that workof truly making peace with past beliefs, traumas, and then stepping into fullacceptance, a more full acceptance of truly who you are and and living that way.Yeah. Little side note, and I don't want to go off on this tangent too far, but acting out in a sexual addiction alot of times is nothing more than a codependent uh response. So, it's a sexaddict trying to trying to get his worth from another human being and for a splitsecond of a a feeling of euphoria and okayess of like, oh my gosh, Iconnected. Now, it might have been in a completely unhealthy way, but theirtheir addiction is their attempt to find God. their their addiction is their attempt to feel okayessum outside of of of what's going on in their life. And so that's why theaddiction is so hard to to let go of because it all comes back to thatattachment of needing that okayess from somebody else, some place, something somebody else,right? So, so to get in full recovery, you actually get to a place of like, I'm not going to consume humans in order tobe okay. Um, whether it's consuming my wife for myself-worth because she said, "Good job. You're awesome." Or consuming pornography to to feel like, "Okay, I II get a break and I feel I feel powerful." Or whatever it might be. So,that's a little side note. Um I guess what why I bring that up Tyler is thisinterdependency is the best sign of actual recovery rightyeah well it's because that is in in essence it is part of the process of recovery is growing into that spaceright yes yeah I mean that's what that's what we're doing in order to actually find recovery um it's not just stopping a badbehavior that bad behavior is symbolic of other things and it's scratching certain itches and it's it's trying tocomplete you in certain ways is and that's why people say like your addiction is your god-sized hole in your heart. And that's that's why the that'swhy we don't shy away from the the wrestle with something bigger than ourselves as part of the process of recovery.Right. Um right. I I want to talk for a second, Brandon, and then maybe you could kind of tie it into kind of some of what your thoughtswere before we started the episode. Um just thinking about the benefits of interdependency because some people arelistening here like like why would I even want to lean in to that process? It's messy. It's hard. Um, but it's it'struly one of those things where 1 plus 1 equals four or five in terms of outcomeswhen it's done right. Um, and I'm thinking of when I worked up in Idahofor the Southeastern Drug Courts of Idaho, there was kind of what I would consideran interdependent relationship that was formed between us as treatment providers, probation officers, a judge,and a jail system that all kind of came together and every single week we wouldkind of meet and we each played a certain role and we could provide great treatment,but we could do better if we had the support of the accountability of probation.If we had the check-in with the judge and even like the the judge that they had was became almost more of like a amentor to a lot of those people than even just the one who doled out the justice, right? And then the jail systemthat would work with us to be able to provide different levels of structure ranging from work release to, you know,partial incarceration to probation to full incarceration. We could move them up and down those levels of of of uhstructure as we were trying to get their feet planted and get moving. That wasway more effective for the whole outcome of the client than us as a treatmentsystem doing one thing and probation throwing them in jail and taking him out of treatment and then the judge coming back and slapping them on the hand andthreatening them but never doing anything. And like it became a massivesuccess. And what we found is is that, you know, people who completed the drug court program with all of those systemsworking together, there's a very, very low recidivism rate for going back into the legal systemafter they completed it. And way lower than just someone who just goes to treatment by themselves or someone whojust gets thrown in jail by themselves, right? Yeah. That symbiotic relationship that'shealthy, that it's boundaried and connected each per each each system. Ilove how you bring up a macro level example here because it's it's fascinating to me. Maybe this is myeconomics degree coming out, but it's it's each system knowing what they are,doing what they're built for, and working in conjunction toward a positive outcome.There is a there's a willingness to to allow that to be the case with all of those relationships to know where eachperson best shows up. And and even with differences of opinion, sometimes beingable to default into, you know, sometimes treatment had to make some sacrifices or sometimes a probationofficer would have to make some sacrifices for the sake of the greater good because we all believed that it wasbetter all the way around to still lean into that than to just be our own independent things.Right. Right. Think think about that. Let's let's bring it to a more microlevel example of a relationship.Right. Like if if let's use the opposite. Um let's say one partner orthe other or both are just a chameleon or just a bowl full of mush so to speakwhere there's no there's no structure of self. There's no backbone. There's no truth.There's no um honest opinions. There there's none of that. It's just I'm justjust being fake in order to be loved. um how effective is that relationshipgoing to be to to actually create positive outcomes?Yeah, that's that's the opposite. Like that's going to lead to a relationship that we don't want to let go of eventhough it's not producing anything we really wanted in the first place. Yeah. Which you I think you justdescribed hell. Yeah. That's misery. That's miserable. Um and yet you're trapped in it. You getstuck there. Yeah. Because of that fear. Because of that fear. So you're And bothparties are like, "Well, don't like I can't I'm resentful. I can't stand this, but please don't leave me."I think it also leads to a lot of times a lack of accountability in the rightplaces. And then that's where the cycle gets stuck where it's like, I'm still looking when I'm showing up looking for the other person to make me okay. Andthe other person's doing the same thing. Now what we're doing is we're extracting from each other at the same time. instead of two people who are showing upwillingly offering their strengths and willing to receive the strengths of the other. Yes. That's such a different like there's ajust a different energy in that. That's a completely different thing. Like you just described two completelydifferent things and yet so many people live in that codependentsystem. Um like how we view relationship I think is veryoff. Um, and we're we're socialized into it. You complete me or you're my myprince or my princess and we're going to live in a castle together and I need you and I need you and I need you so badly.Like versus what you just said, Tyler. You don't complete me, but being aroundyou empowers me. Um, I don't need you. Ichoose you. Um, I I don't I don't need you to createmy purpose, but we can co-create and and create a lot more together, right? Thatthat type of stuff is possible. Um,and if and if that's not the case, then that's an indicator that you need to put your time and resources into other places where where that can happen.Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Um, find findrelationships where you can do that, right? Um, so,uh, a couple things to look at here, I think, for people to, as we're talking, you're probably thinking, well, we'rehealthy here, we're unhealthy there, or I wish I was in that ultimate interdependent relationship. Um, justsome things to consider. Um, what do religion,politics, and sexuality have in common?Let's throw emotion. Let's throw emotions in there, too. I was going to say, that's what I was going to say is every one of thosethings is completely emotionally loaded. Yeah. Because it's because it's connected tovalues. Yeah. Okay. So, let's say and and we won't worry wewon't get into politics here, but I'll use this as an example. Let's say oneperson in the relationship loves Trump. The other person in the relationship hates Trump.How do they like what is it? What does a codependent relationship look like? Acodependent relationship is where one or both try to conform to the other one inorder to avoid the conflict, in order to make sure that they're still good.So, the person that loves Trump will be hating Trump but resenting the person that hates Trump because they have tohate Trump even though they don't. Or vice versa. Yeah. Or vice versa. Yeah.Um sounds healthy. Um Yeah. just the just the resentment can go under the surface and I can just likehave it play out in little other small sideways kinds of ways instead. Right? Because this this political topicis so fiery and so heated and emotionally driven, it it pushes youinto the unhealthy ways to try to to cope in the relationship which in theend leads to all kinds of big problems. Um, uh, we don't have to use keep usingTrump. We can use another one. What did I say? Polit, uh, that's fine. You can stick with that one. We can, we can move to religion if youwant or sex. Um, but you come to the table at let let's let's use Trump for aminute. You come to the table um, interdependent in the relationship. One person really doesn't agree with Trump.One person loves Trump. What does interdependency look like? I think Ithink the key to this is Brandon is is that both of us kind of have thought through um why we love or hate Trump andthen we're able to know who we are and where we stand which then gives us powerto actually step into the relationship with less judgment, more curiosity, awillingness to hear and receive without taking it personally. Um, and I think that's one of the biggest factors is themore I know who I am, the less I will take personally whatever anybody else brings to me.But why would I if if I know that this thing is the the case, I love Trump orhate him, right? If I know if I'm if I'm I'm on that hill, I believe that,then why would I want to go dig in with a person that disagrees with me? Like, why why would I want that? Wouldthreaten my position. It could it could threaten your position. It also kind ofdepends on what you're going for, right? Like so, you know, we talk in therapy all the time. I I can't tell you howmany times a week I say this to people that I work with is looks like this is one of those situations where you caneither be right or effective. So, what do you want to be right or effective? Because effective usually issomething bigger than being right. Um, and so, so now it I think what you'resaying though, Bren, is to do this takes work. It takes the ability to suspend judgment. It takes the ability to becurious. Now, now, why would we do it? Because I could potentially beinfluenced to think or see something different. And I would be blind. I would be stupid to not be open to the factthat I might be wrong about something. And I would also be not offering thegift of my thoughts and what's going on to influence the other person and lovethem if I were to happen to influence them a different way too. Right? So I'm actually loving less and I'm not able togrow as much if I just sit there and stay on an island. Right? But herehere's the paradox to it. If I go in to let's say we have an interactionand I go into it trying to influence you, what's going to happen?Oh, yeah. I mean, if that's if the whole goal is being right, then that's going to make the relationship and theconversation probably go a much different way, right? If I go in argumentative and and trying to show you that you're wrong andI'm right, that's not interdependency, right? Well, because you haven't also attended to the relationship either.Well, and I actually I actually haven't um given respect to the other person andspace to the other person. And and it's what you're saying, Tyler, right? Like like to to to there there's a a aultimately interdependent person will understand the difference between their their opinion and what truth actuallyis. And a lot of what is inside of you, Tyler, and inside of me is ourperspective and our opinion. That's right. Right. That's okay. And that's okay.Yeah, that's okay. So, so I can know like this is how I see it. Um and and I'm prettysure for me that's what reality is. But I do understand that that's myreality. And so if you come to the table with a completely different reality,um I c I can understand that that's my opinion.And the goal is not to argue it out and figure out who's right or wrong. The goal is to understand.I understand you. Your Tyler, your sexuality and yourspirituality is different than every other humans. Every right like that and there's somesimilarities with some people and there's but like it is unique to you.So should you be just like me? No. In order to be okayand in order for us to be okay with each other. No. No. No. Right. And but but what if yourpolitics or spirituality threaten mine?It's Go ahead. No, sorry I asked you a question, butI'm trying to answer. Um well, I mean that's that is something that it's it's okay that they threatenmine and the work that I have to do is to actually then go into inward. And this is what I love about dialectics isI found dialectics to be a really effective way of me being able to find and be curious with my own perspectiveswhile also trying to find the truth that I can get behind on the other's perspective and look for the middleground first. And that that allows then maybe some room for some connection andthe ability to have influence with each other. And sometimes maybe maybe sometimes we're so far off that werealize that we probably don't need to spend a lot of time with each other. But a lot of times we we're actually moremore um able to connect on certain things and at least find kernels of truth in both perspectives so that thenthere's a respect for the places where we might differ. Exactly. I I thinkif I if I love you and you love me, then I would invitethat threatening experience to me. The only thing that's threatening me is not youor your opinion or your thoughts. The only thing that's threatening me is mymy weakness. Are you following me? Yeah. and and like if you're respectful,you're kind, and I know you love me, and we have rapport, then we can take a a hot topic, whatever it is, the hottestof topics, and we can learn from each other, and we still get to land on our own opinion andour own truth. And at the end of it, you feel like I care about you and thatyou're valued, and it it's okay that you're different than me, and I feel the same.That ultimate interdependency. Yep. Right.Which is interesting because the more interdependent we become, themore capable we are of being able to step into the places that provide the deepest connection because the deepestconnection comes from being able to being able to tolerate vulnerablediscussions, vulnerable v vulnerable interactions. Yeah. You know, I love I love um youknow, it's a it's a hard one to get through because it's so many hours of listening, but the the team of rivalsum about Abraham Lincoln and the way that he went about settingup his his whole cabinet was so fascinating to me that he had theintuitiveness to purposely put people in his cabinet in certain places that wouldthat would disagree with him. that would challenge him that that were uncomfortable to have to have that umbecause he knew that for the sake of being effective that was going to be better than just getting a bunch of yesmen.Mhm. And um and it and it talked about like in that that book talked about all of the different wrestles that went on inall those different relationships, but but those wrestles were also necessary for the sake of the greater good of awhole country. Mhm. And um it's a beautiful read about this very thing that they could they couldhold that vulnerable space with each other and then it led to ultimately some really really powerful decisions.Mhm. Yeah. I I love the the politics is a great example,Tyler. I think especially in today's polarizing day and age, like this wholenotion of of there's, you know, liberals and conservatives or Republicans and Democrats or whatever, like the truth isis if if if the labels weren't there and the boxes weren't given and a humanbeing and another human being could come together, they'd find that they'reindividuals that they have opinions that are on this side of the aisle or that side of the aisle and they're mixed andthey're And there's probably a lot more common ground that they have than they're allowing themselves to havebecause they've labeled it as good or bad. Are are you following me?um where you know I went to I went to I I was raised in in Mormon Utahand uh conservative as can be and I went to grad school in liberal Hawaii um MSWprogram like you're a fish out of water as liberal as can be like like asliberal as can be and as as conser like I haven't like lived in like a purple state like Arizona like I haven't likehung out where it's kind of like both sides are like around. No, it's like either I'm here or there. And and onething that that was awesome um about going to Hawaii is umlike being around a bunch of Democrats. I was around a bunch of humans that weregoing to MSW school that were amazing humans that I love and connected to justas much as the people here in Utah. And we're kind of getting off course here.The interdependent relationship is one where you get to be you and I get to be me and I still connect to your humanity.And and this this comes back to your your individual relationships. And wewere just having a conversation earlier, Tyler, but certain topics in those relationships when your spouse can cometo you and say, "This is this is who I am as a sexual being. This is who I am as a spiritual being.and you're there as a safe person who's strong enough in your own skin to be able to say, "Tell me more.I want to know you. I might not agree with you, but I want to know you." Right. But how's that person going tofeel? Yeah. Like, wow. Like, I'm I'm not going to try to change you. I'm not going to tryto force you to think something different, but but I care about you. Um,that to me is love. like that it's it's it's ultimate space and connection to beseen. Um and and that leads to deep intimacy and um a and the relationship thenbecomes this thing that actually supports you to get to know you betterand and that's awesome. It like helps you understand yourself. Continual process of learning.Yeah. a continual process of growth and that's that's really what we are for each other as human beings is we are I Ilove that quote that I say all the time but we are each other's clinical material you know like that's what it isso true it's we are we are all each other's our families our our spouses I think that'swhy marriage is so powerful when you look at it from like a continued growth perspective or a spiritual lens ismarriage in a lot of ways is a massive part of clinical material material thatyou get from the other part partner and that you give to the other partner. Unfortunately, sometimes you know but uhyou know your kids, your your friends, your your work people like the people around you are the clinical materialthat are going to help you to continue your process of growth. Yeah, absolutely. And and we're we'reeach other's best teachers. Yeah. So, Tyler, before we wrap up, I II want to talk about I want to shift gears just a little bit. You you mentionedthis at the beginning. Um, speaking of relationships, uh, I I think we don't wedon't talk about it enough. Um, what what we have and in terms of ourcommunity and the things we have going. Um, so Tyler mentioned the signal fire.Uh we we do things where there's opportunities for connection and there's opportunities for healing and um ourcommunity over at Reclaim Your Heart, we have amazing people. Um the retreatsthat we do, we talk about all the time. Um but there's so much more going on than just that. And um I'd love for umas many people as possible to participate in this signal fire. Um,it's a it's a What is it, Tyler? You might not be able to explain it. Yeah, I'll explain it.Yeah, this is we're really excited about it. So, so this is for our community. Um, of course, there's going to be anin-person part of it. So, anyone who's in person up here in Logan, Utah. We'vedecided to do a symbolic fire that's going to lead to a lot of introspection,a lot of thought, a lot of We hope to have it kind of become a sacred experience for people. It's on the winter solstice. the wintersolstice, which is the longest night of the year, which happens to be December 21st this year. We're going to light thefire around 4:45 as it gets dark, which is an early darkness up on the top of amountain that can be seen through the whole valley where we live. And then we are going to keep that fire burninguntil sunrise and throughout the night. And we're going to we're going to have itavailable on Zoom. And we're also going to have a fire at ground level for people who don't want to climb the mountain. It's about 2 miles straight upthe mountain. So, it's a really rough hike. But, but throughout the night, we're also going to engage in some chatdiscussions on Zoom. We're going to have guest speakers come and talk about some of their processes of from darkness tolight, the longest nights of their lives, and the transformation that they've experienced. We'll also probablyparticipate in a couple of little activities that could be seen as like a shared experience that will be thingslike meditations or breath work or things like that that are all there tohelp you set the intention and do some pondering about your own darkness, your own processes oftransformation from darkness to light and the growth that happens and really maybe set some intentions and make somecommitments towards new new directions in your own life. So, we'd love to have you join us. Reclaim your heart.orgis where you'll find out how to get the Zoom link if you're out of town or thethe GPS coordinates if you decide to try to make the climb up with us. So, we'rewe're standing vigil over the fire as a symbol of being a witness to um this isgoing to make me emotional, Brandon, but um being a witness to those of you wholisten to us who are going through really hard and difficult times. And we would want you to know that um that youare seen, that you are not alone, that there is a light that still burns. And um and sothat's kind of what we're doing. Uh, Tyler, my favorite quote, the cave you fear to enter is the it holds thetreasure you seek. And there there's something about the the cave that's interesting and it's it's darkness.Um, and I've I've learned over the years that that the winteruh the deadness, the the cold is is thebest time for renewal. Um, it's it's the best time for healingin many ways. Um, it's that's when you shed your skin. It's when you deal withthe darkness, you deal with the pain. Um, and uh I the winter solsticecouldn't be a better better night for this. Um, and so yeah, come come uh youcan join in all kinds of ways and come be a part of this. We'd love to see you there. Yeah. You don't have to stay the wholetime. you can check in. About the top of every hour is when we'll be doing some kind of either speaker or activity.Yeah. So, all the way through the night. Yeah. We love you to our audience. Umyou're amazing. Um and we have such loyal listeners and weappreciate you so much. And however we can give back and push you into deeper recovery, that'sour that's our goal. So, thank you for listening today. Go practice some ultimate interdependency.And until next time, keep on keeping on.