Where The Sexual Shame Come From?

Where does sexual shame come from? Welcome to the Therapy Brothers podcast.I'm Brandon. I'm Tyler. We're brothers. We're therapists. And we know recovery.Bring your stories, your questions, your successes with real recovery.Hey Tyler, you ready to have some hard conversations? Let's do it. Let the Therapy Brothers podcast begin. Heyeverybody, welcome to this installment of the Therapy Brothers. Um, it isBrandon today, so it's the therapy brother today. Um, Tyler is off. Uh, Ithink he's driving home from Denver visiting his grandbaby. So, he's back and forth to Denver quite a bit. Um,it's excite an an exciting time for him. He has a lot going on with his family and his kids. They're all doing reallygood stuff. Um he's raised an amazing family and uh it's just fun to watchwatch them grow up and start to do good things and itdefinitely makes me feel old. I want to give a shout out to my daughter Sandy.She is uh she's in the school play this week. They're doing newsies and she'scrutchy and so she has to hobble around the stage on one leg for like two hoursand she just does I I just can't put into words like how proud I am watchingher and um and all my kids just they're they're amazing. Umit's just so much fun. And so I'm going to the play tonight. Uh Newsies is thebest. Um, open the gates and see. Oh, I'm gettingoff tune there. Um, but yeah, newsies is the best. It'sabout standing up for what's right. And so I hope that I I do a little bit bitof that today. Um, today's episode is going to be a little bit unique. Um,maybe with Tyler gone, I'm taking a little bit of liberty here to to dosomething that I think is important. And uh, like some of you might love this andsome of you might hate this. Um, but before I dive into it, I want to giveyou a little bit of background of of why and what. Um,I've been, as you know, I've been um I I've been doing this for a while andum I was raised very LDS, very religiousand um early in my career, I spent a lot of timegoing in and out of churches giving uh lessons about pornography and sexualaddiction and those type of things. And I was talking about how horriblepornography is. and um spent I I I I don't know countless uhpresentations uh different presentations big big fifth Sunday lessonsum presenting in front of conferences and all kinds of stuff a lot of public speakingand um uh you know I was also raised LDS and I have my own personal experienceand as you know people started coming people started to come into my practice ice. Istarted to do therapy and but every once in a while I I I want tozoom out and take a look at at the big picture of of what is actually going on.And over the years, my paradigm has shifted. My perspectives have changed.At first, when I was young, it was just porn is bad and the internet and porn isthe problem and that's all that's going on here. So, let's get the, you know,let's make sure people aren't looking at that and that's the issue.Um, I wasn't I I wasn't realizing the waters that I was swimming in.Uh, I was just unconscious of it. And over the years, as I've started to takea step out, um, I've had to get really clear and really honest with myself about all ofthe dynamics going on in the situation in terms of what is driving some ofthese issues. And um, I believe that one of the bigproblems there there there's there's extremes. uh one one side extreme is have nostructure and no boundaries and do what whatever you want as a sexual beingand if you have any boundaries or structure then that's bad and that just causes shame. So so that's one side ofthe fence. The other side is your sexuality is an issue. You bettercontrol it. Um your natural man is an enemy to God. you better make sure thatyou're chasteed, pure, clean, all of those things.Um, and those are the two sides of the fence. So, as I'm as I was doing thiswork for so long, a lot of where a lot of the business that came in fortherapy, a lot of the betrayal that was happening in relationships, those type of things were people whowere very rigid in their thinking and in their belief systems andvery shameful about sexuality. that it was a righteous thing to to beuh almost against sex and sexuality.And what I what I see is when uh an individual or a couple is in thatmindset, they get stuck. They get stuck in battling against their very nature.So, um, over the years, I've I've watched this dynamic and I realized I was a partof the problem for a while. Um, going into churches and and beating the drum of, um, don't touch your penis. Uh,don't I didn't say that in church, but but you get the gist of it. Um,don't be sexual. Um, sex is only between you and your spouse and that's allsexuality is. And the fact of the matter is is sexuality is more than that. Youcan be faithful. You can you can have fidelity in a marriage, but sexuality ismore than just having sex with a spouse.So anyways, um a as as I've watchedthings progress, a reality is, and here's a reality. Sexualself-acceptance, self-acceptance, not self-rejection, self-acceptanceis a very important part of recovery.So it sounds backwards. When I accept who I am, what my natureis, and I stop fighting against that, that's recovery.And the fear is is well, if I if I do that, then I'm just going to go crazy.And the facts are is if you do that, then you'll have more power to choose who you are and what you do as a sexualbeing. If you fight it, if you resist it, ifyou reject it, if you use shame to try to control it, you will have less power and it will own you.So, I actually have written a book um over theyears, just one chapter at a time. I haven't released it. Um, you guyslistening, you get the first uh just the first little tidbit here of my book.This is chapter one. Um, I I need to figure out how to publishit. Uh, it's it's I fully wrote it. Um, the the whole thing. Um, anduh, the name of the book, I guess I'll I'll let the cat out of the bag. I don't have a release date,nothing. I just feel like I need to share um the first part of this book with youguys. Um but the name of the book is Jesus has a penis. I know I I I know for some ofyou that's blasphemy, but that's the very point that why why is thatblasphemy? The very point is is that Jesus was asexual being. And it's Christlike to be sexual.I don't I don't know if anybody has ever said those words together. And I just said them. It's Christlike to be sexual.And it's important to understand this because it it undoes a lot of theprogramming that creates the shame that drives the attachment issues and theaddictions. When you realize that that if you'restriving to be like Jesus and you can be a sexual being that that actually fits within that, then you can let go of somuch.Jesus did have a penis. Jesus is sexual.So, um, some of the stuff I say in here, I couldbe like hard for some people to hear. I just want to warn you. And you may disagree with me, and I love when peopledisagree with me. That's great. I'd love to have you on the show. If you really disagree with me, I'd love to havediscussions about it, talks about it, and understand more about it.Um, also I think this kind of shows a little generational thing. So my generation,um, we were raised with, uh, pretty, um, pretty tight, stringent rules aroundsexuality and things like that. I feel like within churches and things and things like that, they've they'veloosened up just a little bit and it's not as um as shame based, but it's still there.So, I'm just going to actually read um sections of this first chapter and uhsee what you guys think. And hopefully it gets you, if anything, it just gets you thinking. Um,let me pull it up here. Again, this is raw. This is uh likeunedited um content. I hope nobody, you know, steals it andruns with it cuz I wrote it. And but uh yeah, just just be patient with me. Umthis Yeah, I need to get it I need to get it edited and published sooner than later.So, chapter 1 is called from sexual self-rejection um to self-acceptance.And I'm just going to read little sections and then comment to those sectionsum and and understand that this book was written to Christian men. So, but but Ithink women who listen, I think you can think about yourselves and these same things apply and alsothink about your partners and um it might be triggering and hard to hear umbut it hopefully will help you gain a better understanding. So umso the first section is called the wound of sexual shame. For many men, there is a deep, often unspoken wound that formsearly in life. The internalized belief that their sexual nature is somehow dirty, dangerous, and fundamentallybroken. This wound doesn't appear spontaneously. It is carefully cultivated through messages receivedfrom family, religious communities, and broader culture. The message is clear.Your sexual self must be controlled, suppressed, and regarded with secrecyand suspicion. And a lot of these messages that I'm I'm talking about here, um, they're blatantand they're direct and they're written in pamp pamphlets. They're set uppulpits. Um, but a lot of the messaging is um, subtleand you pick up on it just by being in that environment. little things aresaid. Um, insinuations are are said, but the the messages of ofyour sexuality is something that is going to get you in trouble. And sex andsin are synonymous. Um, is is therethe psychological toll of this teaching cannot be overstated. Imagine growing up believing that a core aspect of yourbeing and energy that flows through your body as natural as bloodis essentially corrupt. That the very impulses that draw you toward connection, pleasure, and evenprocreation are evidence of your fallen nature. Um,this isn't merely an intelle intellectual proposition. It becomes a visceral rejection of self that lives inthe body and psyche. Little side note, I think this is thisis the gospel according to Brandon. Uh I think that Satan or the adversaryattacks sexuality extra hard extra e extra because it'ssuch a beautiful amazing god-given thing.So it's so automatic that it's just bad, dirty, wrong, not okay. And theadversary has done a great job at connecting sex and shame.Um, men who have been socialized into this force and control model ofsexuality frequently report persistent shame that doesn't dissipate even withgood behavior. So even when they're sober for long enough um or just, you know, trying to be goodenough, they can never actually get there. Um, they report a divided self, the goodspiritual man versus the bad sexual man, anxiety around sexual thoughts andfeelings, difficulty with emotional intimacy, a pattern of repression followed byacting out. Well, we see that again and again. Um, I I've seen it for yearswhere I'll white knuckle, white knuckle, white knuckle, then release. I'll just I can't take it anymore. And the actingoutcomes followed by deep shame,spiritual disconnection despite religious devotion. So these men that feel reallydisconnected from God, but never miss going to church on Sunday.They spend hours and hours at uh spiritual practices but sp feelspiritually disconnected because they're because they're in that shame.So I I've heard the story a thousand times. Guys finding porn under their friend's dad's bed or their buddy'sphone or wherever it may be, viewing it and liking it. They keep it to themsel.They hide it but keep going back to it. Masturbation quickly becomes part of theequation. Through adolescence, they start creating habits of secrecy and recommmitment tostopping the sinful behavior. Some divulge to parents or church leaders vowing to stop. Some get caught. Somenever do um get caught. And the shameful sinful behaviors continue on intoadulthood, trying harder to be clean and failing over and over again.I've heard it. I don't I don't know how many times I've heard it. Um, so I give a this is a quote from aguy, Mark, a 42-y old man described it this way. I spent 30 years trying topray away my sexuality. I'd confess, repent, recommmit to purity and andinevitably fall again. Each cycle left me feeling more broken and unlovable.The worst part wasn't even the guilt. It was feeling like I could never be whole,like there would always be this war inside me.Think of that. Like there's never be because if you're trying to ridyourself of sexuality, there's never an actual, and I put in quotes, puritythat's going to happen. You're fighting against your verynature. This inner war creates casualties. Menbecome alienated from their bodies, disconnected from partners, and sometimes develop compulsive sexualbehaviors precisely because they've never learned to integrate their sexuality in a healthy way.The very approach meant to create sexual purity often generates the opposite,sexual dysfunction and shame. If there's anything that I want people to get from my book here, it's that.And this this this takes a more mature understanding of recovery and of whatwe're actually trying to do here. If you want to step into your power as a humanbeing, then you accept everything. You accept all that is, including your sexuality. When you step into yourpower, you have more power to choose the consequences that you want in your life and what you want to create.The way that you do that is not by self-rejecting.And in when I say integrate your sexuality in a healthy way, what that means isreally making peace with it, knowing who you are, exploring who youare, understanding who you are, and then deciding what you want to do with it.We start we start off with the rejection, and that's a problem.Okay, this part might be you might disagree with this. It might be hard to hear, but I'm going to I'm going to gothere. So, uh, the next section is called the religious machine of sexual shame.When I was 11 years old, I eagerly eagerly went into an interview with my church leader to advance in mypriesthood. Turning 12 was a milestone in my LDS faith, and I was ready to take that step.As I sat alone with my bishop, he asked me a few questions. Then with a serious tone, he said, "How involved are youwith masturbation?" Bewildered and embarrassed, I didn't know what he was talking about. He thenin a very appropriate way explained to me what masturbation was and why I should avoid it. Why God wants me to beclean and pure and that masturbation is a is a way to be unworthy.I didn't know any better, so I took his word for it. But why?Why was my first sex education about masturbation coming from a church leader in aninterview about priesthood worthiness? You see the problem here?Like I I wasn't I had I had no education about masturbationuntil I sat down there with that bishop and he asked me how involved I am. And immediately first thing, how involvedare you? And that's one way to be unworthy when you're telling a 12-year-old that like I'm just confusedand then I'm like, "Oh, okay. That's something that I definitely shouldn't do." Like that's just that's all thatis. Like I won't do that thing he was talking about. Umto understand why religious institutions have perpetuated these harmful teachings about sexual purity and control, we mustlook beyond individual scriptures to the systemic dynamics at play. Religiousorganizations, like all human institutions, have survival imperatives. They require adherence who are loyal,financially supportive, and willing to pass the faith to to future generations.And by the way, side note, I don't think they do this consciously. I don't think they're like out to create this thing.It's just it just is there like and it's a reality and we can either face it or not.But the the genius and tragedy of sexual shame as a control mechanism is that itcreates an unsolvable problem that only the institution claims to address.Consider the formula. One, you are born with sexual desires. Two, these desiresare inherently sinful. Three, you cannot eliminate these desires through your own efforts. Four, therefore, you need ourguidance, forgiveness, and systems to manage your brokenness.And this need will continue throughout your life as the problem is intrinsic to your being.because of my sexual sin and my problems with sexuality, I need the church inorder to become worthy and repent. I have to confess. I have to umyou know use the church to try harder to be better. And in a roundabout way that actuallysets the church up to have loyal followers who are wallowing in their shame um but needing the church.This formula creates lifelong dependence. A man caught in this system can never graduate to spiritual maturityand autonomy because he his very nature is deemed the problem. He remains in achildlike relationship with religious authorities who position themselves as necessary intermediariesbetween his sinful self and divine acceptance. The financial and social power thisarrangement confers on religious institutions is immense. Men who feel fundamentally flawed are more likely todonate money, submit to authority, pass these same beliefs to their children, and invest in books, programs, andaccountability systems to manage their sexuality.Oh, and the last one, remain dependent on community approval to feel worthy.So I say to be clear, I'm not suggesting a conscious conspiracy among religious leaders. Most genuinely most genuinelybelieve they are helping men by teaching them to be wary of their sexual natures.They would never consciously claim they are running systems of shame and compliance. Most of the leaders and members whoperpetuate these beliefs do this automatically and unconsciously. It's deeply embedded into the culture of thereligion. It's ingrained over generations.And I think that's important to understand. Like these are not bad men who are who are doing this. I did this.I hate to say that like that hurt when I just said that. I did this for years. Iwent into I went into church houses. I talked to teenagers in lessons and I didthis. I was a part of thisand I didn't realize that I was what I was doing.I had no clue that I was a part of this whole system. I thought I was helping and I washarmingand I'm I'm trying to make it right now. And if if if you hate me for it or don'tlike what I'm saying, I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to make it right now.Let's talk about Jesus for a minute. Since we've already been talking about his penis, we might as well talk aboutwhat he he actually says. The irony in all of this is that Jesus himselfpresented a radically different message about human nature and sexuality. By the way, just little side note, the Biblewas scrubbed by religion and patriarchy. So, it's really fascinating to me howmuch sexuality is taken out of the Bible.Um, and so it's really hard to find. Like, as I was doing this research, it's really hard to find stuff from Jesusabout sexuality. Um,but here here's some stuff. Though Christianity has often been weaponized to instill sexual shame, the gospeltells a different story. Jesus notably never condemned sexuality itself. Hisharshest criticism um were reserved not for those with sexual struggles but for religiousauthorities who placed heavy burdens on others while creating elaborate systems of rules that miss the the heart ofspiritual transformation. That patterns in the Bible again and again where Christ is like, "Hey,you know, if you're sinless, cast the first stone." Consider how Jesus treated those accusedof sexual sin. With the woman caught in adultery, he challenged her accuser self-righteousnessand offered compassion rather than condemnation. With the Samaritan woman who had fivehusbands, he engaged in one of his most profound theological discussions.That's in John 4. With the sinful woman who anointed his feet, he praised herlove and devotion, contrasting it with the cold religiosity of his host.So in each case, Jesus created space of dignity and transformation, not shameand rejection.2 Timothy 1:7, my favorite scripture probably. For God has not given us thespirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind in John. Sorry, I'm getting preachyhere, but that's the book has a lot of like stuff because we're talking about Jesus, right? Perfect love casts outfear because fear has to um do with punishment.Jesus's approach was not about controlling external behavior through shame, but transforming the heartthrough love. He taught that true purity comes from within, not from adherence to external rules. His emphasis wasconstantly on love, integrity, and treating others with dignity, including ourselves.The gospel message at its core is one of reconciliation and integration, not division and self-rejection.Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly,not so we could live in perpetual shame about our created nature.All right. Um,you guys, this is just the first chapter, too. You got to you got to get my book, huh? This I'm not trying to make this a commercial, but I've I Ihave dug like deep into this. umthe path to sexual self-acceptance. What would it look like for men to move from sexual self-rejection to sexualself-acceptance? So, so what I I'm going to talk about here is what am I actually suggestinglike and and hopefully get a little more clear um what would it look like for men tomove from sexual self-rejection to sexual self-acceptance? This is not about abandoning ethics or embracingevery impulse uncritically. Rather, it's about relating to our sexual nature from a place ofintegration rather than warfare. Sexual self-acceptance means one,acknowledging our sexual nature as a created gift rather than a fallen curse.Two, embracing our bodies as good rather than sources of temptation and shame.Three, developing an internal ethical compass rather than depending on external rules. Four, learning to listento our desires with discernment rather than reflexive suppression.Five, making choices from a place of integrity rather than fear of punishment.Six, viewing sexuality as an integrated part of humanity rather than a separatedark side. Men who have undertaken this journey report profound shifts in theirrelationships, themselves, their partners, and their spirituality.Let's see, I share a story here. This is from uh Jason, a former bishop.The turning point came when I realized God wasn't afraid of my sexuality. I'd been taught to see my desires as theenemy. But what if they were actually part of what makes me human? What if my work wasn't to eliminate desire but tointegrate it in into a whole and healthy life? That reframe that reframingchanged everything. I found I actually made better sexual choices when I wasn'toperating from shame. Shocker. When we remove shame, things get better.Interesting. Um, I had a client years ago say, "I amterrified to not be in shame because I use shame to control things and protectme to be good." So, you use rejecting yourself to be good.Anyways, paradoxically, sexual self-acceptance often leads togreater sexual self-control. Not the white knuckle control of suppression, but the integrated control that comesfrom making choices aligned with our deepest values. I've said this several times now. When we're not at war withourselves, we can channel our sexual energies in ways that bring life rather than destruction.Um,so a man so the next section is called thepower of integration. A man who has integrated his sexuality doesn't need external monitoring, accountabilitysoftware, or fear of divine punishment to make ethical choices. He hasdeveloped the internal strength to notice his desires without being controlled by them. Honor hiscommitments from a place of integrity rather than compliance. Relate to others as whole persons rather than objects oftemptation or conquest. Experience pleasure without shame.navigate sexuality with mindfulness rather than compulsion. This integration doesn't happenovernight. Healing from decades of sexual shame requires patience, compassion, and often support. But thefreedom on the other side is worth the journey. Um, and this is the last part of thechapter, and I'll wrap this up. A new gospel of male sexuality. And Iand by the way, I'd also say female sexuality. I need to write this book forthe women as well because it the the issues are a little different. The shameum and the messaging is a little bit different, but umthe the overall like issue is is the same. So, I won't get into that rightnow. But what if the good news is uh for men isn't that Jesus will help us defeatour sexuality, but that in Christ we can be fully us, sexual beings included.What if salvation isn't from our bodies, but from the shame that disconnects usfrom our embodied experience? Jesus had a penis. This simple anatomical fact has profound theologicalimplications. It means that embodiment including male sexuality was not beneathGod. It means that the divine entered fully into human experience, not to condemnit. Um to follow Jesus is not to reject oursexual nature, but to bring it into alignment with love. Love for ourselves, love for others, and love for God. It'snot to recognize that our capacity for desire, pleasure, and intimate connection isn't separate from ourspiritual nature, but an expression of it. The message of Jesus is not one of selfmutilation, but of self- integration. Not of shame, but of dignity, not ofrejection, but of acceptance. In this light, sexual ethics becomes not aboutcontrolling a dangerous force, but about expressing a beautiful one.We make choices not from fear of being bad, but from desire to embody love inall our actions, including our sexual ones. As men on this journey, we have theopportunity to pioneer a new relationship with our sexuality. One based not on rejection and shame, but onacceptance and integrity. In doing so, we don't just heal ourselves. We we helpcreate a world where future generations of men can embrace their whole selves from the beginning free from the dividedlife that has caused so much suffering. This is the true scandal of grace. Notthat we are given license for destruction for destructive behavior,but that we are loved and accepted in our entirety, sexual beings included.And from that place of acceptance, we find the freedom to live with both passion and integrity. both desire anddiscernment, both power and love.It's chapter one. Because I recorded this, I'm committingto actually getting this thing published, and I might self-publish it.Um, I don't know exactly how to go about it, but I need to get it published. And um I I think I havelet me seeI have like 12 chapters and we get into all kinds of stuff.So um I'd love feedback on this. Um,I sometimes saying the uncomfortable stuff is is is hard and it can triggerthings inside of you. And um I I come to this from years ofexperience and I'm not trying to make anybody uncomfortable. Um but what I what I am fighting for is real recovery.um real true recovery and where people find actual peacewithin their themselves and um and they don't just fight for sobriety.So, if this was helpful, you guys, please uh share it and uh I'd love yourreviews. And until next time, keep on keeping on.